Taoist Philosophy - Conversations Introduction

[Marblehead]

IMAGINARY CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN LAO-TZU AND CONFUCIUS

By Chuang-tzu


(Chuang-tzu fictionized. He said of his own works that nine-tenths were allegories. His way of expounding a philosophical idea was often to select a few characters, historical, legendary or outright fictitious, and let them talk, and his works abound with conversations that were never intended as literal records. This is clear enough from such stories of conversations between General Clouds and The Great Nebulous, between Light and Ether, between the Yellow Emperor, Do-Nothing and No-Beginning, and the dialogues of persons like “Muddle-head No-such-person”, “No-toes Shusham”, etc., etc. The conversations between Lao-tzu and Confucius which he wrote must therefore be taken as frankly imaginary, although they sometimes contain references to historical facts in the life of the two philosophers. By common tradition, Lao-tzu was the older man and Confucius saw him in his lifetime. Naturally, in these stories by the Taoist philosopher, Confucius was always pictured as receiving advice rather than giving it.

Confucius appears forty or fifty times in different conversations in Chuang-tzu’s works, and sometimes Confucius’ disciples, especially Yen Huei and Tsekung, had encounters with Taoist sages.)

Edited March 2, 2013 by Marblehead

[Otis]

Fung Yu-Lan, in his first appendix of the Chuang-Tzu, writes the following:

 

Most Chinese philosophers were what Chuang Tzu called the "followers of antiquity". When they had ideas, instead of expressing those ideas directly in their own names, they would read them into the sayings of some ancient authority as if they had found them already there.

 

I think a slight disservice was done by Hoff's "The Tao of Pooh", which over-sensationalized Chuang-Tzu's treatment of Confucius. In my reading of Chuang-Tzu, most of the time Confucius seems to be presented as the wise man of the story, who is willing to humble himself, whereas Hoff uses him as a pedantic foil to Lao Tzu.

[Marblehead]

 

I think a slight disservice was done by Hoff's "The Tao of Pooh", which over-sensationalized Chuang-Tzu's treatment of Confucius. In my reading of Chuang-Tzu, most of the time Confucius seems to be presented as the wise man of the story, who is willing to humble himself, whereas Hoff uses him as a pedantic foil to Lao Tzu.

 

Yeah, I think that Lao Tzu and Confucius would have had some really great discussions if they were more of the same age and had spent a fair amount of time together.

 

I think that Chuang Tzu was more of a free spirit than would have been acceptable by Confucius (and perhaps even Lao Tzu).

[dawei]

[Nanashi]

I always liked the reference to Lao Zi as a dragon...

 

I like it, as well. Several years ago, I drew this scene in MSPaint (I recall a similar cartoon panel being in the Tao Speaks! series, and took a little artistic license).

 

Edited June 16, 2011 by Nanashi

[dawei]

I like it, as well. Several years ago, I drew this scene in MSPaint (I recall a similar cartoon panel being in the Tao Speaks! series, and took a little artistic license).

 

I like that !

 

When Lao Zi went through the western game, he meet Yinxi (the gate keeper) and told him to practice the dao for 3 years and come meet him again at Mt. Qingcheng, which the latter did. There is a very historical reason why this mountain was selected; The Yellow Emperor learned the Dao from Ning Fengzhi at this mountain. Unless one knows both stories, they are otherwise never told as connected.

[Marblehead]

Hi Guys,

 

Y'all are doing great!

 

It amazes me, the difference between the significance of the Eastern Dragon and the Western Dragon.

[Everything]