True Prajna- true wisdom - YOGIS VS BUDDHISTS!

[Vajrahridaya]

So prajna is greater knowing. How do you compare such a thing?

 

Hi Forest.o.e.,

 

I feel that there are levels to knowing, stages of personal graduation that should not so much be compared with other people, unless you have a guide, or a teacher that you can reflect your knowing off of.

 

But, I do get the gist of what you mean in this instance.

 

Yet, what or who is to measure what is great and what is not, or what is greater than what?

 

Sure, within the yogic traditions, it means being wise over being ignorant, having direct insight into the nature of everything rather than limited cognition. But, I think different traditions define differently what constitutes greater insight and what does not, at least on a dualistic level of Buddha/enlightened being versus lets say Hitler.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Where? What was it's name?

 

 

Chakras in Tao, Buddhism, Khemetics, Yoga

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18869-chakras-in-tao-buddhism-khemetics-yoga/page__p__265619__fromsearch__1entry265619"

Edited June 18, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Suliman]

Thank you everyone for replying, theres some really good stuff here ,currently reading through it ..

Personally i didnt expect this much reply so its great how so many people understand this stuff.

 

You are correct,i have been reading Mahayana buddhism ,and they speak of that system as the great vehicle.

[Mattimo]

I believe there is REALNESS in nearly every practice. Various texts, words and practices are descriptions or way-points that aid one with the fundamental alignment with this REALNESS. More than likely, things get convoluted, misunderstood and perhaps misrepresented in/on the metaphorical map which has faded, been vandalized and weathered. The factor of our dissonance with ultimate reality, also plays a key in our ability to interpret potential ancient wisdom. Once again, there is a silver thread that runs through everything, but what is it? Is IT inherently simple?

[goldisheavy]

Why can't you do wizardry with energy channels?

 

You could, but most people who like to practice with energy channels believe these channels are real self-existent things. With a mindset like that it's really hard to do wizardry. For the most part when a person learns about the subtle energy systems, the person takes one's mindset, together with all that it believes about the human body and the world, and just adds onto it another layer of beliefs about the subtle energy body. So instead of loosening up of the beliefs (good for wizardry) you are adding more beliefs on top of the old crusty beliefs (bad for wizardry). So in addition to all your stagnant and ignorant beliefs about the physical body and the physical world you now also have another huge layer of beliefs about the subtle energy body, channels, centers and so forth. So with the energy practice the person tends to multiply their beliefs and opinions instead of reducing them. The extra layer of beliefs that is embodied in the subtle energy body is in some ways more powerful and more freeing than those beliefs about the gross physical body, but because the energy body beliefs do not get rid of the physical body beliefs, most practitioners end up with this huge baggage about who they are and what they can and cannot do (bad for wizardry).

 

And this is why some Chinese Daoists talk about transforming jing to qi to shen, because by itself, if you begin believing in qi, you begin sensing qi, you still didn't get rid of your belief in the physical body, right? So what can you do? Well, if you believe you truly have a real actual physical body, you have to transform it! This is hard to do because the idea of substantiality is contradictory to the idea of transformation. (The idea of emptiness is more conducive and more compatible with transformation.) At the very least, if you belief something to be substantial, you must also belief that transformation occur according to some universal laws, usually with great effort and struggle because there is no free lunch in substantialist view. So the whole process of transformation is hard or even impossible, and also necessary because the body is seen as a king of lead weight holding one down. Without the idea of gradual refinement the naive Daoists have no way to get rid of the body.

 

I don't think all the Daoists are naive though. Some of them understand the role of the mind in maintaining the apparent solidity of the body and they realize nothing needs to be externally transformed. Only beliefs internally need to be transformed. The inner belief transformation is the real authentic alchemy leading to real magical life. But it's also scary and crazy because it works. It works because it strikes the true heart of reality instead of firing wildly all around.

 

With the Hindu conception things are even more crazy than with the Daoist external alchemy (refining substances from gross to subtle). Kundalini rising up the spine is just a fun game. Thinking that some energy hits your head and you become enlightened means that enlightenment doesn't require any kind of change in understanding, and that it's purely a mechanical and almost a biological process. So this kind of idea that you can become enlightened while retaining your ignorant mindset is the most deluded idea ever to exist on this planet. But I can understand the appeal. No one wants to change one's mindset. Most people want to lead "normal" lives. They just want a little extra sauce on the side. Just more health, more fun, something cool to play with, a little internal excitement, and kundalini delivers exactly that. What kundalini doesn't deliver is changing what you believe about reality and about yourself.

 

Energy practice can be a useful tool in the hands of those who understand illusion. It can really be something handy. You can use it to warm up or cool down your body, heal yourself and others and for some other things, without getting stuck in it thinking it's actually there.

 

You know how Tibetans replaced the idea of deities with meditational deities? That's the right idea. So replace the idea of energy with the idea of meditational energy, and you'll get some benefit. You know what the difference is between a deity and a meditational deity, right? A deity is thought to be a real self-existent being that's actually out there (same thing people believe about themselves and other objects in the so-called "physical" world). A meditational deity is understood to be an empty and lucid appearance in the mind, so it gives all the benefits of the deity without any of the delusional drawbacks. So a meditational energy will have the same benefit.

Edited June 18, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Otis]

Good points, goldisheavy.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Vajrahridaya]

All very interesting Simple Jack.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Lucky7Strikes]

All very interesting Simple Jack.

 

Thanks for sharing!

Haha, not so "Simple" though. .

[Vajrahridaya]

Haha, not so "Simple" though. .

 

Well... , the simple is as equally empty and interdependently arisen as the complex. So to speak at least.

[tulku]

This is from an article that deals with a different topic, but still has info that pertains to this thread:

 

My link:

 

"...for complete cultivation achievement you want MIND enlightenment, and you want the BODY to become enlightened, too."

"The typical approach, such as followed in Zen, is to ignore the body and attain the Tao (enlightenment, realize the dharmakaya) through cultivating prajna transcendental wisdom. You ignore the body entirely and look for the source of the mind without cultivating mental attachments."

 

"After achieving the Tao, next you finish the catch up task of finishing off the transformation of the physical body so that it, too, can be transformed into a purified Reward body, or sambhogakaya. This is a body whose five elements have been transformed, and every cell has actually achieved a measure of awakening. Shakyamuni Buddha actually demonstrated this achievement in one of the sutras wherein we can say that every cell actually becomes enlightened, too."

 

"Now to be honest, one way to approach the Tao is to cultivate the body first to a state of purity, and then use the purified body to help cultivate the realization of the Tao. Most of the form school adherents try to practice this path, but most of the participants on these roads NEVER succeed because of clinging to the body when they say they aren't. These folks laugh at the Mind-only practitioners and say you'll never achieve immortality because you guys don't cultivate the body, but they never achieve immortality OR the Tao because they get too tied up in clinging to form realm practices. Frankly, they don't have enough wisdom to travel the form schools and make progress using those vehicles."

 

"I want you to remember two quotes. Remember, no one tells you this in cultivation clearly, but there are two sides to the coin. Therefore the first quote: "Merely to cultivate the physical body in order to achieve long life, but not to practice to realize the self-nature is a cultivation practitioner's first mistake. To practice only for realizing the self-nature, however, but not for the internal elixir, will result in your practicing for ten thousand eons without becoming a sage."

 

"The second quote, another similar saying runs, "By cultivating your essential nature only, without cultivating life [without cultivating the gong-fu which entails transforming the physical body], the yin spirit will not become a saint in 10,000 aeons."*

 

"Master Tsong Khapa of Tibet on deity yoga (from Tantra in Tibet, translated by Jeffrey Hopkins, p. 129), and for those who know of this sort of practice, you'll realize that he, too, was saying you have to cultivate both your body (chi) AND your mind to achieve the Tao. If you don't know what deity yoga is, then just ignore these 3 paragraphs:

 

"If one cultivates only (a path) having the nature of a deity [if one only works on cultivating their chi and mai gong-fu of the physical body], one cannot become fully enlightened merely through that because the fulfillment of (yogic) activities is not complete. Or, if one meditates on the suchness of a deity and not on the deity [if one cultivates emptiness but ignores the physical aspect of chi and mai cultivation within the physical nature], one will attain Buddhahood in many countless aeons but not quickly. Through meditating on both, one will attain the highest perfect complete enlightenment very quickly because to do so is very appropriate and has special empowering blessings."

 

"Thus, Ratnakarashanti says that if one cultivates only deity yoga, one simply cannot become fully enlightened. Also, even if one does not meditate on a deity, through meditation on emptiness accompanied by other methods one can become fully enlightened in many countless aeons. If one meditates both on a deity and on emptiness, it is the quick path."

 

'Therefore, the master Ratnakarashanti also asserts that the view of emptiness is common to both Mahayanas and that without deity yoga the path is slow like the Perfection Vehicle, but through joining deity yoga with the view of emptiness the path is quick."

 

"Yet another quote from another tradition: "Without the body the Tao cannot be attained. But with the body Truth can never be realized." What's that mean? It has implication for those who concentrate on the body too much, and who therefore never achieve the Tao.

 

All these quotes basically say that you need to achieve MIND enlightenment and TRANSFORM THE BODY on the cultivation path. You want to achieve body enlightenment, too..."

 

"The big lessons to remember out of all this are: (1) don't think cultivation is that easy, (2) you have to SUCCEED with mind and body enlightenment to achieve the full Tao, and (3) with a clear mind there is less desire, (4) you have to cultivate wisdom and discipline on the path to succeed, and don't forget virtue and merit."

 

*Those two quotes are from Taoism.

 

Very Wise Man +1

[unmike]

I recently completed a 10 day vipassana retreat, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. They make an incredibly solid case for the notion that this was the precise technique Buddha was teaching in his time to help people achieve liberation.

 

From the five vows and noble silence (no communication of any sort, save brief questions on technique to the teacher at specific times) come a base of sila, or morality. This is the foundation that eventually enables us to cultivate the proper type of samadhi. The silence helps us approach mental silence and allows for intense concentration during the meditation sessions, starting with anapana. This is done focusing on only the small area around, under, and inside the nostrils at first, then restricting further to just below them. All this serves to sharpen the mind and improve awareness of subtler and subtler sensations. From here, we are taught the actual vipassana technique, scanning each square inch of the body from head to toe and then repeating, eventually flowing and later scanning, as the framework of our own bodies is the only place we may approach truth directly, without relying upon an external source. Because this is not wisdom gleaned from something outside ourselves, be it words heard or scripture read, it becomes experiential - pavhana maya pajna, and this was the enlightenment of Siddartha.

 

When you approach these sensations with equanimity, you are cutting off craving and aversion at the deepest levels of mind, not just on the surface. Equanimity to pleasant sensations cuts off craving, and to unpleasant sensations cuts off aversion. At first appearance, they seem to be generated based on the dynamic relationship between the outside world and mind. Delving deeper into the process, we realize that the six sense doors of smell, taste, touch, hearing, sight, and thought come in contact with objects from the world at large. The outside world, sense objects, and doors are all solid links in the chain with little we can do to affect them save incapacitating ourselves. Upon contact, the various minds begin to arise. First, the cognizing part decides what the object knocking on one of our doors is, followed by the recognizing part which compares it to all we have experienced previously. Next the judging mind decides if it is good or bad, and then the feeling part floods the body with sensations. Herein lies the weak link; the objects judged good result in pleasant sensations, while those judged bad result in unpleasant ones. It is only after these pleasant and unpleasant sensations arise that craving or aversion are generated, and so this is logically where our action must be in order to remedy this basic habit pattern of the deep mind.

 

What's even more amazing and why this is likely the actual method Buddha taught is that, when remaining aware and equanimous, not generating future defilements, the mind constantly brings the old stock of cravings and aversions to the surface. When you retain equanimity through these sensations as well, they are eradicated. In such a manner, one may eventually become liberated.

 

The retreat really helped fill in a multitude of holes in my understanding, they fed us wonderful vegetarian fare, and they don't even give people the option to donate time or monetarily until after taking a course and receiving the benefits. All courses are run completely from the donations of service and funds from past students wishing to share the joys this technique provides.

 

I would like to add that the technique is taught completely non-dogmatically, is non-sectarian, and they welcome people from all faiths and walks of life. Morality, mastery over your mind, and wisdom are teachings that are universal, as is using the breath as a tool and experiencing subtle level sensations without reacting blindly. Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, after all.

Edited June 19, 2011 by unmike

[Suliman]

Working with energy channels can give one some interesting experiences. These experiences will sometimes challenge your core beliefs. That's a useful function when or if it occurs, when it comes to enlightenment. But by itself, without contemplation, it's of no avail. In fact, if you believe you know what energy is and how it works, you are far away from enlightenment because you don't really understand emptiness.

 

If you read Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, you'll see that Yogis also understand that energy channels are sidetracks. So it's not fair to saddle Yoga with energy practices. Yogis also have Jnana, bhakti, seva, and other yogas that don't depend on any kind of energy channel practice. If you read Avadhut Gita, you'll see once again, there is no point in energy practices from the POV of enlightenment even in Hindu Yoga.

 

So energy practice is really a specific niche. It has more to do with having fun, health, some minor magic, things like that. Energy channels are appealing to people with the physicalist mindset. Energy channels are the spiritual analogues of physical structures of the body, and people who demand structures find this appealing. So instead of diving into a world void of structure, they go from the human body, which is structured, toward energy channels in the spirit, which are again, structured. So they go from a gross structure to a subtle one, and this is comfortable and fun for those people. But when they do this they don't understand the true nature of structures, which is emptiness, because they demonstrate huge commitment to these energy systems as if they were absolutely and inherently real, just like the believe the human body is.

 

So think of energy as you do of mundanely useful things, like carpentry or like plumbing. It's a useful skill and you can get paid if you know it, etc... but it's not going to make you into a wizard or give you greater understanding all by itself.

 

very enlightening...thanks for sharing ... also thanks everyone also

[Suliman]

Simple Jack thank you also(in fact thank everyone replying,finding this out in my own wisdom would of took me 2,000,000 years of incarnations and then i would of still came back as a dog or a chimp .)

Anyways thats much appreciated,very powerful wisdom you guys writing down.

[Vajrahridaya]

(....,finding this out in my own wisdom would of took me 2,000,000 years of incarnations and then i would of still came back as a dog or a chimp .)

 

Well, hopefully not anymore!