The problem of suffering when you don't believe in karmic rebirth

[Jetsun]

I have been trying to face up to my own suffering and investigate the causes of it and I have come to the realisation that it would be so much smoother and easier if I had the firm belief in karmic rebirth, that I deserve to be in the state that I am in and where I am at in life due to past misdeeds, so there is a sort of cosmic justice. But from my own life experience and from seeing myself and my younger brother grow up my view is that young children come in as more or less blank slates and then get made to suffer almost randomly in the world when they are completely innocent and did nothing to bring it on themselves and the problem I am having is that it it just feels so unjust which inevitably leads to anger and bitterness towards the world.

 

It would be nice to believe in karmic rebirth but I have no memory of previous lives and so far have seen nothing to utterly convince me of it so I suspect it might be another comfort blanket belief to shield people from the harsh reality of the randomness of suffering. So I guess I am asking how do you not get bogged down in anger and bitterness about it because without the belief in karmic rebirth it just seems so senseless that random innocent people are made to suffer more than others?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Maybe reincarnation doesn't work like that. At death your ego and personality, are all lost. What remains is the base awareness of existence itself, that finds it's way to a new dream.

 

The universe is a big place, and you wound up here in this world once before. You came from the nothingness, the emptiness, the void. When you die you shall return to it. Everyday millions experience this fact of life.

 

You being incarnated has occurred at least once that we can say for certain, it happens all the time. Is it so illogical and irrational to think maybe it may occur again the same as it has in the past?

 

 

I have been trying to face up to my own suffering and investigate the causes of it and I have come to the realisation that it would be so much smoother and easier if I had the firm belief in karmic rebirth, that I deserve to be in the state that I am in and where I am at in life due to past misdeeds, so there is a sort of cosmic justice. But from my own life experience and from seeing myself and my younger brother grow up my view is that young children come in as more or less blank slates and then get made to suffer almost randomly in the world when they are completely innocent and did nothing to bring it on themselves and the problem I am having is that it it just feels so unjust which inevitably leads to anger and bitterness towards the world.

 

It would be nice to believe in karmic rebirth but I have no memory of previous lives and so far have seen nothing to utterly convince me of it so I suspect it might be another comfort blanket belief to shield people from the harsh reality of the randomness of suffering. So I guess I am asking how do you not get bogged down in anger and bitterness about it because without the belief in karmic rebirth it just seems so senseless that random innocent people are made to suffer more than others?

Edited June 18, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Marblehead]

Hi Jetsun,

 

Yes, what you are speaking to is problematic.

 

For me, realizing that 'suffering' is a psychological function, it became much easier to deal with the unjust events in life.

 

Cause and effect will get us every time. That cannot be avoided most times. The big thing is is how we deal with the effects. Even more important, I think, is understanding the causes. Once we understand the processes we can avoid most of the effects because we are able to alter the causes.

 

We will always have pains of one sort or another. No getting around that. But we don't have to allow these pains to cause us to suffer.

[Jetsun]

Maybe reincarnation doesn't work like that. At death your ego, personality, ego, are all lost. What remains is the base awareness of existence itself, that finds it's way to a new dream.

 

The universe is a big place, and you wound up here in this world once before. You came from the nothingness, the emptiness, the void. When you die you shall return to it. Everyday millions experience this fact of life.

 

You being incarnated has occurred at least once that we can say for certain, it happens all the time. Is it so illogical and irrational to think maybe it may occur again the same as it has in the past?

 

The question of what is supposed to be reincarnated is one which I have never really got my head around, I have had it explained that your karmic seeds contain a force or a potential so when you die that force has to go somewhere, so maybe I am bound by my karma wherever that leads. Perhaps that will lead to another life, but I still don't get the issue of population as the world population has increased a lot so where have all these new reincarnating beings come from? It all seems so unanswerable to really hold the firm conviction that my life as it is results from previous life karma. Even people like the Dalai Lama don't have memories of previous lives but he is firm in his conviction that his suffering and that if his people is due to previous karma, I just wonder how he is so convinced.

[Mandrake]

I still don't get the issue of population as the world population has increased a lot so where have all these new reincarnating beings come from?

 

This presumes that there are only roughly 6 billion beings on this planet - there are more beings than just humans; presumes that there are only beings on this planet - enormous amounts in the universe; enormous amounts in the universe - infinite numbers in the multiverse/different planes.

 

 

Mandrake

 

PS. Ian Stevenson surely wasn't a believer initially; you've probably researched him already?

May I also suggest these:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/group.html_2063308730.html

DS.

[Otis]

I hear you, Jetsun. I don't see any reason, whatsoever, to believe in reincarnation, but it would be a relief (to the part of my mind that craves "fairness") if there were some mechanism in the universe that brought bad consequences to bad people, and spared the good.

 

Of course, if I'm really to shed the concepts of "good" and "bad", then there is nothing that approaches fairness. There is only a seemingly capricious universe, that doesn't care who suffers.

 

And really, that's basically what I see, when I look out on the world. I see no valid reason that I should be a middle-class white male in America, and enjoy all the privileges that brings, while so many suffer in other areas of the world.

 

Honestly I don't think it's possible to figure it out. Incredible minds have tried, but all they've arrived at are nice superstitions (reincarnation, heaven, chosen people, one true faith) to help us feel better about (in)justice. And those superstitions really beg the question, and just sweep injustice under the rug. They're kind of evil, actually, because they blame the sufferers, and increase the "we are the righteous ones, who deserve to be on top" mentality, for those in privileged places.

 

Personally, I don't see a reason to hold on to the concept of "fairness" as it pertains to the universe, and instead just try to be fair, myself. Forget about suffering as a problem, and just focus on living my life as compassionately as possible. Let "what is" be "what is", and just concentrate on the part that I can change myself.

[InfinityTruth]

It's comforting to know (I know the feeling) that your personal handcrafted hellhole was tailored by some supreme deity who has supreme power over you. That the actions on your part had nothing to do with what led up to where you find yourself.

 

Why wouldn't that be comfortable? That gives up every bit of your own responsibility away and who wants that stuff?

 

The problem with that is now you're completely stuck. Like you deserve to sit there and rot.

 

I heard that karma for the most part isn't retribution though, like the west always thinks. It's more of an action-reaction type of thing.

 

Like lets say I don't pay the light bill for the next 3 months. The reaction to that is going to be no lights. A type of immediate karma. That's why it pays to be on top of things.

 

An akashic record reading can also help you find out your karma from past lives. Provided you get a good akashic record reading psychic. I had an excellent first reading done less than a month ago.

 

My karma from past lives really had nothing to do with retribution. In fact, for me, it was seemingly the opposite of retribution. The psychic was telling me about my most recent life around WWII where I was living in holland and I pointed something out about hitler and what I thought about the nazis, and they sent me off to a concentration camp where I was killed.

 

In an even earlier life in Rome I was pointing out the corruption of the catholic church (While christian)and they had me murdered.

 

 

For doing seemingly good things, but because of those experiences, I'm a lot more reluctant to point things out. Karma(action-reaction). Which is true. I used to know the answer all the time in school, but I wouldn't say anything for some reason and I didn't know why. I said to myself it was because I was shy. It actually made me angry because I wanted to say something, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

[Gerard]

Please don't assume that all the existing human experiences existing on this planet just popped out of nowhere, there are infinite worlds and multiple planes of reality on each of those existing worlds.

 

This excellent document will guide you on the path of better understanding yourself and the first noble truth:

 

www.interactivebuddha.com/Mastering%20Adobe%20Version.pdf

 

Rebirth is a natural process each sentient being will experience as a result of their ever evolving karma, and karma comprises not only actions but also words and thoughts. Every single thing you do, say or think will have an immediate or future (not only on this "yours" life cycle but in the ones to come) consequence.

 

Good luck.

[Mandrake]

Incredible minds have tried, but all they've arrived at are nice superstitions (reincarnation, heaven, chosen people, one true faith) to help us feel better about (in)justice. And those superstitions really beg the question, and just sweep injustice under the rug. They're kind of evil, actually, because they blame the sufferers, and increase the "we are the righteous ones, who deserve to be on top" mentality, for those in privileged places.

 

Maybe not all those incredible minds are very incredible? Furthermore, this takes as a stance that all propositions, as above, are false, hence superstition; also, that the people have a moral agenda, and are just not trying to explain their findings; also, that there is no knowledge about the universe that can be discovered through subjective methods only; that knowledge is accessible to everybody, even rare incidents; begging the question of materialism/ignorance taken for status quo.

Perhaps a lot of descriptions are like feeling the elephant?

 

And maybe the universe is ugly? If there are causes which fruition into suffering in the future - are we to discard this just because of: "They're kind of evil, actually, because they blame the sufferers, and increase the "we are the righteous ones, who deserve to be on top" mentality, for those in privileged places." If we want to feel so comfortable, why not believe in a loving creator who takes everybody to happy heaven?

 

The "we are the righteous ones, who deserve to be on top" - attitude completely misses the concept of karma,at least the buddhist one.

One could instead feel increased compassion when understanding this whole process, since people at the top will end up in the shit; people in the shit will float up the top. That there are tons of reasons to feel compassion is relevant, no matter if we are speaking about a past or not.

 

Mandrake

[C T]

Alan Watts 6 min video - Determinism and Karma

 

i found it relevant and insightful to Jetsun's reflections here.

[Jetsun]

Alan Watts 6 min video - Determinism and Karma

 

i found it relevant and insightful to Jetsun's reflections here.

 

Thanks for this, it can help to investigate the source of a problem like described in the video as you can never find it's source so it becomes impersonal, problems are passed down through families from person to person so who do you blame? without a person to blame it is hard to get angry, although I find it hard to maintain this perspective from day to day.

 

I have thought about animals being reincarnated into humans and visa versa which would account for the population changes but I don't know how an animal would get enough merit to be reborn in human form without some sort of extreme luck. Also some animals I would consider already above humans in some ways, they live in the present moment in harmony with their environment and some mammals like Dolphins are more openly compassionate than most humans, if you swim with them they will come up to you and show you love and compassion naturally, while humans are generally too defended to show such open compassion until they know they are safe with the other person, so maybe Dolphins are reincarnated high level practitioners.

[C T]

Thanks for this, it can help to investigate the source of a problem like described in the video as you can never find it's source so it becomes impersonal, problems are passed down through families from person to person so who do you blame? without a person to blame it is hard to get angry, although I find it hard to maintain this perspective from day to day.

 

I have thought about animals being reincarnated into humans and visa versa which would account for the population changes but I don't know how an animal would get enough merit to be reborn in human form without some sort of extreme luck. Also some animals I would consider already above humans in some ways, they live in the present moment in harmony with their environment and some mammals like Dolphins are more openly compassionate than most humans, if you swim with them they will come up to you and show you love and compassion naturally, while humans are generally too defended to show such open compassion until they know they are safe with the other person, so maybe Dolphins are reincarnated high level practitioners.

Great! I am all for investigation and contemplation - not necessarily to find answers, nor conclude any findings, for these are often deadends, as far as i can see. Seeing can be a continuous process.... while what is seen, confronted with conclusions, already belong to the past.

 

I agree with you about the animals and mammals. They have no blockages. A lot of animals are in this world to 'teach' humans compassion, by opening our soft hearts and helping to facilitate and speed up this inner connection. Unfortunately, some animals can suffer greatly due to human intolerance, indifference and cruelty, and if you believe in things like the burning of negative imprints, then these animals can be seen as doing just that to those who appear indifferent and cruel. Moreover, their extreme vulnerability alone can touch people's hearts deeply, and in some cases, wake up/transform people's ignorance instantaneously - strangely enough, even humans find it hard to do this to fellow humans. In such ways, one can regard animals as having great potential to generate sufficient merit for higher rebirths.

Edited June 17, 2011 by CowTao

[suninmyeyes]

I have been trying to face up to my own suffering and investigate the causes of it and I have come to the realisation that it would be so much smoother and easier if I had the firm belief in karmic rebirth, that I deserve to be in the state that I am in and where I am at in life due to past misdeeds, so there is a sort of cosmic justice. But from my own life experience and from seeing myself and my younger brother grow up my view is that young children come in as more or less blank slates and then get made to suffer almost randomly in the world when they are completely innocent and did nothing to bring it on themselves and the problem I am having is that it it just feels so unjust which inevitably leads to anger and bitterness towards the world.

 

It would be nice to believe in karmic rebirth but I have no memory of previous lives and so far have seen nothing to utterly convince me of it so I suspect it might be another comfort blanket belief to shield people from the harsh reality of the randomness of suffering. So I guess I am asking how do you not get bogged down in anger and bitterness about it because without the belief in karmic rebirth it just seems so senseless that random innocent people are made to suffer more than others?

Hi Jetsun,

I hear you and here is what helps me is-

Shifting the view. There is a picture within the picture.A world inside of the world.

A symphony with all diferent kinds of notes ,that when gathered together produce a masterpiece called life.Allowing whatever theme to be played out ,giving away only what I would like to reiceve,but not minding if I dont.

Anger and bitternes managed to piss me off too much as well.All they offer at the end of the day is some short burst of righteous satisfaction with a horrible long aftertaste.

Looking at the larger perspective.As a part of the earth,existance,universal masala .

[Birch]

I have been trying to face up to my own suffering and investigate the causes of it and I have come to the realisation that it would be so much smoother and easier if I had the firm belief in karmic rebirth, that I deserve to be in the state that I am in and where I am at in life due to past misdeeds, so there is a sort of cosmic justice. But from my own life experience and from seeing myself and my younger brother grow up my view is that young children come in as more or less blank slates and then get made to suffer almost randomly in the world when they are completely innocent and did nothing to bring it on themselves and the problem I am having is that it it just feels so unjust which inevitably leads to anger and bitterness towards the world.

 

It would be nice to believe in karmic rebirth but I have no memory of previous lives and so far have seen nothing to utterly convince me of it so I suspect it might be another comfort blanket belief to shield people from the harsh reality of the randomness of suffering. So I guess I am asking how do you not get bogged down in anger and bitterness about it because without the belief in karmic rebirth it just seems so senseless that random innocent people are made to suffer more than others?

 

 

I think that you are fully justified in feeling anger and pain at whatever was done by whoever it was done by. Simply because you're feeling it! I don't believe that absolution as a 'balm' leads anywhere 'useful' (well, it does, but not for the individual...)

 

However, neither (unfortunately), does 'blame' IME/IMO because it has a tendency to absolve you of your own responsibility to heal yourself (IMO/IME). I've tried that one already.

 

So the way I figure it is that putting the onus on the other person/people to "do something" so you can heal (whether it be waiting for an apology or even a recognition of the facts) is taking the risk that they will never do it and that you will never do it for yourself and so never feel peace and happiness.

 

And finding additional people/'subconscious' setups to (re) play it all out with to 'win' this time or not have it happen 'again' won't do it effectively either (another one I tried). Aside from being unfair to people who had nothing to do with your initial injury in the first place.

 

You know this because this is (likely?) what happened to you (there's the 'karma' - no need for actual 'rebirth' IMO) I'm not saying all that to be harsh, I really feel for your pain because I have felt pain from childhood neglect and mistreatment. Sometimes I still do (working on that)

 

Of course I would rather that children NOT get mistreated and I've posted about searching for ways to mitigate as children grow. But if they are mistreated (and they are) then I'd like to find ways to make sure the ignorant actions of others do not ruin the rest of their lives (and one could argue 'other innocents'' lives' as well, if you carry the whole thing 'forward').

 

Your understanding of the origins/motives of whoever carried out the acts you're referring to may help to 'not take it personally' and as a result NOT see yourself as at fault for whatever was done but IME it won't help you side-step feeling the pain of the injury or allow you to gain the confidence in your own responsibility to direct your life and not continue to be at the heels of other people's 'issues' or 'karma'.

 

So to end, I'd also add that the exhortion to 'honour thy mother and father' is a lock and key for anyone attempting to do this work of self-healing. Once you're healed, then you can decide how you want to interact with them (or not).

[passenger1980]

I also share the same doubts. I think it's a matter of faith (in my case in the Buddha and Dharma). I believe in karma, rebirth and the light at the end of the tunnel too. We all want to be happy and safe forever, we just don't know how or if it's possible.

 

However i will be honest, if tomorrow i would have the certainty that there would be absolutely no consequences of my acts, then my life (and the life of this world) will be very different. A lot of people think they are atheists but they aren't, they don't have that certainty (nobody has it luckily) and that's why they still value ethics and morals. I won't go out and kill everyone just because i could, but my mindset will definitely change for the worse.

 

If there were no karma or "divine justice" of some sort, then a lot of rules in this world will change, life will be finite, you will be a tickling bomb and world/long term issues won't matter, only instant gratification before dying, and the extreme avoidance of suffering/pain at all costs.

 

If you think about it, we are living in a society that's very similar to the previously mentioned...

[Apech]

I think our western culture makes us hung up on having to believe something - as if this is important or the key to something. This comes from the Judeo-Christian approach to spirituality. The Buddhist approach is more about building confidence in the view ... you can accept ideas like karma because they work and also because they are logical rather than some leap of faith.

 

Cause and effect - which is the basis of karma - is logical - if you do something, act in a certain way or effect some kind of change then inevitably it has some consequence because the energy of that act is not destroyed. In terms of a moral or ethical position if you have choices about what to do then it is better to choose the positive, generous or beneficial option ... on the basis that generally this will at some time in the future (for someone if not yourself) will have positive results.

 

The idea that we are blank sheets of paper when born is not altogether convincing. For instance we know that each one of us is genetically unique ... ok the essential nature of our minds may be pure but as actual people we have characteristics even at birth ... even identical twins are slightly different. Through interacting with the world we very quickly pick up thoughts, feelings and emotions and so on which shape us further ... this is not through faults exactly but just how it works for beings with minds which are not realised.

 

Rebirth I think, also is a very different idea from reincarnation. Its more that whatever energy or consciousness which makes up a person is not lost at death but is somehow passed on just as the water in a river flows on or a candle flame is lit from a previous flame ... so it is not that 'you' are born again but that there is some kind of transmission.

 

Obviously these are my thoughts and people need to make their own minds up about these things. But I think key to this kind of thing is to examine critically any assumptions you may make about how things are.

[C T]

Dont fret over what has past. Cut it off. Severing the past, concentrate on the present effects and causes of one's intentions, moment to moment, for it is these present self-knowing effects and causes of intentions that will tomorrow determine and shape how you look back at today. Mindfulness is the key - without mindfulness, self-knowing does not arise.

 

Most of us have experienced a past that has induced us to seek for a better way. We are now on this way. How else can we help ourselves other than to cultivate the sort of attitude now that will ensure we remain unbound, in body, speech, and mind, in the future? The Buddha says its very simple to understand and to carry out this practice of intentionally creating your future by your present actions -

[Mattimo]

@Jetsun

 

I understand the desire and the action of pondering life and one's vantage point along that line. I choose to believe there is a greater purpose; I choose to believe we are playing a game; I choose to believe we accepted to play this game. I choose to believe the objective is to make the best out of it and follow the path, through the maze that is the best route for YOU. Karmic rebirth is irrelevant. Face life or die.

 

Perhaps there is intonations of extremism in the statements above. Moreover, I will be the first one to admit that I do not vehemently follow my maxim of life. But I strive to, in whatever capacity I can, at this present time even if that capacity is subdued at times.

 

It is what it is. The reality IS that YOU are here...now embrace it.

[Otis]

I think that you are fully justified in feeling anger and pain at whatever was done by whoever it was done by. Simply because you're feeling it!

Excellent post, Kate!

 

 

 

 

( not meant as worship...)

[Otis]

you will be a tickling bomb ...

I like your quote, but I loved your typo!

[Otis]

The idea that we are blank sheets of paper when born is not altogether convincing. For instance we know that each one of us is genetically unique ... ok the essential nature of our minds may be pure but as actual people we have characteristics even at birth ... even identical twins are slightly different.

My psych prof dad has told me about separated-identical-twin studies, which show that genetically similar, but environmentally distinct individuals, tend to have a great deal in common, including small habits and pet sayings.

[Jetsun]

So the way I figure it is that putting the onus on the other person/people to "do something" so you can heal (whether it be waiting for an apology or even a recognition of the facts) is taking the risk that they will never do it and that you will never do it for yourself and so never feel peace and happiness.

 

And finding additional people/'subconscious' setups to (re) play it all out with to 'win' this time or not have it happen 'again' won't do it effectively either (another one I tried). Aside from being unfair to people who had nothing to do with your initial injury in the first place.

 

Yeah these are the traps, you sum it up pretty well. It is quite a relief when I can really see that the past doesn't have to weigh me down or influence the present moment in any way, yet keeping this awareness and really see it all the time and with regards to everything in the mind is the tricky part.

[Gerard]

Rebirth I think, also is a very different idea from reincarnation. Its more that whatever energy or consciousness which makes up a person is not lost at death but is somehow passed on just as the water in a river flows on or a candle flame is lit from a previous flame ... so it is not that 'you' are born again but that there is some kind of transmission.

 

Agree. Also to clarify this a bit: why should a butterfly know it was a caterpillar previously since both minds are different.

 

The karmic cycle is endless and can take up many, many forms. It's shaped by the mental formations and their volitions which are constantly being produced by the sentient being. It's like constant mini-cycles that flow within a large eternal cycle itself. The job to be done is to calm down, sit down quietly and realise that the mind itself is uncontrollable force that needs to be tamed and in the end see that it is a product of the environment itself. What is the mind of a baby compared to that of a busy executive working in Wall Street or that of a selfless Deva always trying to mitigate human suffering. When we realise this then we say that mind itself no longer exists as such, is empty.

[star]

...I am asking how do you not get bogged down in anger and bitterness about it because without the belief in karmic rebirth it just seems so senseless that random innocent people are made to suffer more than others?

 

What I am learning to do is to not take it personally. I guess it's stating the obvious to say that the universe is not out to get me (or any particular person), but there you are.

 

The thing is that you're right, it is senseless and random, but it's not that some are "made to suffer more than others" -- as far as the universe goes, there's no intention behind who suffers more than others -- it's just that in the world we live in, the system is so complex and therefore chaotic that we can't predict who gets hurt in that tsunami and who escapes unscathed.

 

The way I understand the Way is to accept the reality of the situation: it is what it is; and then be as nimble as possible in living within that reality.

 

It's only "senseless" if we impart no sense to it. That is, the universe doesn't seem to concern itself with human sensibilities -- we provide the meaning, meaning on a human scale. The universe itself is empty of human meaning -- and some of us perhaps overdo it when giving it human meaning (something to be wary of) -- but we can quite mindfully do our best to give the world we live in meaning that is consistent with what we see around us. For me it's this: yes, horrible things happen -- sometimes as random chance physical phenomenon, but even more often through human ignorance and blindness -- what part of that can I do anything about? Not the tsunamis (though early warning systems could help if that was my field) but human ignorance and blindness to the way things work, that I can have some small effect on, starting with working on my own.

[fiveelementtao]

There is more than one type of belief in reincarnation. I am of the belief that doctrines are things we should use to help us live happier lives. So, be creative and allow yourself to believe what helps you enjoy life the most. I am of the unorthodox belief that the challenges in our lives are thing we have CHOSEN to experience. I see earthly life as a school. I agree that if challenges are some kind of punishment, that it feels very cruel to me. But, if this life is more like a video game where while we are in the game it feels really intense, but as soon as our last guy is killed, we say, "that was fun! let's go again." That gives me a sense of empowerment. Many of the orthodox doctrines of reincarnation feel like punishment to me so I do not adopt them. I prefer to adopt beliefs that I find to be pro-active in helping me in life rather than explanations that simply give me some kind of intellectual safety but may tend to limit me into a reality I don't like so much.

 

For me the belief in reincarnation is not something I worship. I do not know if it is true. I believe it is. But even if it isn't, I am searching for ways that I can empower myself as much as possible in order to be as happy and successful as I can be.

 

For me believing that everything in my life is a choice that I made before coming into this virtual reality game called human life gives me mindset that seeks to enjoy and benefit from everything I experience. And it has helped me work through challenges much faster than before. I don't think the guilt trip is very helpful. IMO and IME.

 

my .02