Obsession: What the War on Terror Is Really About

[Lozen]

You absolutely have to watch this video. It is an hour plus in length, but it is sooooo important to watch.

You have to have high speed to stream it. Very hard to watch but very important.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=61...About&hl=en

[Smile]

You absolutely have to watch this video. It is an hour plus in length, but it is sooooo important to watch.

You have to have high speed to stream it. Very hard to watch but very important.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=61...About&hl=en

 

Nice response to "Loose change 911" video. Plays more like a propaganda film than a documentary. I wonder who was involved in making it?

 

What the war on terror is really about...part two

 

BAGHDAD -- The U.S. agency in charge of $1.4 billion in reconstruction money in Iraq used an accounting shell game to hide cost overruns on its projects in Iraq and knowingly withheld information on schedule delays from Congress, a federal audit has found.

 

Arabs caused 9/11? Watch "911 Total Wake Up" or "911 - The Greatest Lie Ever Sold" videos from http://nw0.info/.

 

 

Also

[Lozen]

Nice response to "Loose change 911" video. Plays more like a propaganda film than a documentary. I wonder who was involved in making it?

 

I think the raw footage spoke for itself.

[Smile]

I think the raw footage spoke for itself.

I guess they didn't have access to the footage of over 200,000 slaughtered civilian Iraqis and thousands that are breathing in Depleted Uranium every single day. Not just in Iraq but in Afghanistan and Bosnia as well. Ask mothers with deformed babies if it all was worth it. Tell them it's not their fault. Tell them we are just a bunch of innocent Americans came here to bring freedom and democracy in their countries. So what if half of their family is dead or in detention because they're all male and are able to bare arms?

 

If 3 of your kids just died because of a bomb or by a sniper's bullet, what would you do, my friend? What would you do?

[Lozen]

Not what the people in that video did, that's for sure.

[Peregrino]

There's always the danger that we become evil to defeat evil, but I think the moral ambiguities of fighting a just war (note that I don't consider the Iraqi adventure to be one) are tolerable in face of the alternatives of annihilation or enslavement. I'm all for dialogue with moderate Muslims, but the sharia-imposing extremists (from Tehran to Thailand to Amsterdam) have proven themselves not to have any interest in "just getting along" whatsoever.

 

I know there are many pacifists posting on this site, so Smile/Max, as a Buddhist pacifist, what do you think is the best response to the slaughter of Buddhists by Muslim extremists in Thailand? (The Islamofundies are not just at war with "the West," but with any religion or perspective that differs from radical Islam. Remember the Taliban destruction of those Buddha statues?)

 

Recent events have really made me re-consider the pacifism of someone like Gandhi. I'm glad that Gandhi successfully ended British imperialist rule in India without the use of violence, but, as bad as the Brits could be, they were more amenable to non-violent resistance than other world powers at the time, e.g. Germany. Gandhi was waaaaaaaaaaay off the mark in thinking the European Jews should have just capitulated to Nazi terror, for in the end, "the moral victory would be theirs." What good is a "moral victory" if your civilization no longer survives?

 

Here are some choice quotes from Sri Aurobindo on Gandhi's pacificsm: http://www.esamskriti.com/html/new_inside....9&count1=10

 

It's too bad that Bush and his free-marketeers are anything but high-caliber leaders, but I do yearn for a time of real peace, in which radical Islamists have either realized the folly of their ways and put down their arms or have been soundly defeated by a military force that can leave something better in its wake than Bush has done in Iraq (c.f. the reconstruction of Germany or Japan after WWII).

Edited August 4, 2006 by Peregrino

[Smile]

I know there are many pacifists posting on this site, so Smile/Max, as a Buddhist pacifist, what do you think is the best response to the slaughter of Buddhists by Muslim extremists in Thailand?

i don't know the background of what is happening in Thailand so i can't tell, but I'm not a pacifist if someone comes to kill me.

 

Dropping bombs in the proximity of my would-be-killers is not the answer either.

[Peregrino]

Oops, the Sri Aurobindo link was bad, but it should work now.

 

So Max, you think there is such a thing as "moral violence," after all? Sorry if I mischaracterized you then.

 

Beyond individual self-defense, I think it's crucial to think about collective safety. It would be great if people dedicated to killing us would agree to an "honorable" conventional war on a battlefield, but modern warfare is no operatic Chinese kung-fu film!

 

So then, what are the best ways to deal with hostile forces who want to wipe out or subdue entire civilizations? I'm all ears for a peaceful solution--something that will WORK! Remember, not all ideologies are as willing to negotiate with non-violent opposition as the British were in India. I really don't think the Israelis would keep going to war with Muslim countries if those countries didn't want to destroy them completely; i.e., Israel doesn't look to eradicate the Islamic world, just defend itself, however questionable its measures can seem at times. Considerable extremist elements in the Muslim world, one the other hand, are fanatically dedicated to DESTROYING ISRAEL--they're not interested in any "two state solution." The only reason they haven't done so is because they still lack the military might, though Ahmadinejad in Iran has repeatedly said that Israel should be nuked out of existence as soon as the Muslim world has access to the bomb. Such extremists would LOVE to drop bombs hundreds of times more powerful than what the Israelis are dropping right now, and they've been saying so for years, not just during the present conflict.

 

Speaking of India, I'll throw in some Sri Aurobindo quotes right here, as I can't resist data-dumping!

 

 

Sri Aurobindo on Gandhi

 

These are Aurobindo's words quoted from a book ' India's Rebirth'.

 

July 23, 1923 Gandhi's Ahimsa

 

 

I believe Gandhi does not know what actually happens to the man's nature when he takes to Satyagraha or non-violence. He thinks that men get purified by it. But when men suffer, or subject themselves to voluntary suffering, what happens is that their vital being gets strengthened. These movements affect the vital being only and not any other part. Now when you cannot oppose the force that oppresses, you say that you will suffer. That suffering is vital and it gives strength. When the man who has thus suffered gets power he becomes a worse oppressor-.

 

 

What one can do is to transform the spirit of violence. But in this practice of Satyagraha it is not transformed. When you insist on such a one-sided principle, what happens is that cant, hypocrisy and dishonesty get in and there is no purification at all. Purification can come by the transformation of the impulse of violence, as I said. In that respect the old system in India was much better: the man who had the fighting spirit became the Kshatriya and then fighting spirit was raised above the ordinary vital influence. The attempt was to spiritualize it. It succeeded in doing what passive resistance cannot and will not achieve. The Kshatriya was the man who would not allow any oppression, who would fight it out, and he was the man who would not oppress anybody. That was the ideal.

 

You can live amicably with a religion whose principle is toleration. But how is it possible to live peacefully with a religion whose principle is "I will not tolerate you"? How are you going to have unity with these people? Certainly Hindu-Muslim unity cannot be arrived at on the basis that the Muslims will go on converting Hindus while the Hindus shall not convert any Mahomedan. You can't build unity on such a basis. Perhaps the only way of making the Mahomedans harmless is to make them lose their fanatic faith in their religion-.

 

 

That was the result of the passive resistance which they practised. They went on suffering till they got strong enough and, when they got power, they began to persecute others with a vengeance-.

 

The pacifism meme can be a great force in the world, but I'm not convinced that it can apply to all contexts. Tolerance is also a great virtue, but it should not take a weak form--i.e. appeasement of INtolerant ideologues! The next one hundred years will be interesting (perhaps in the sense of the Chines CURSE, "May you live in interesting times") in Europe and elsewhere. I'd love to see EVERYONE following the pacifism meme, but as the demographics shift here in Europe, I think the "democratic pluralist" meme should be followed first, and supported by whatever means the situation justifies. As bad as democracy can be in many of its present manifestations, theocracy is ALWAYS infinitely worse.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Peregrino

[Peregrino]

Articles on the Muslim-Buddhist conflict in Thailand:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3955543.stm

http://tricycleblog.blogspot.com/2004/11/t...in-tak-bai.html

 

Maybe there are moderate Muslim voices in Thailand who can negotiate for a separate state, but I have no sympathy for the Jihad types who behead Buddhist monks, and, if they follow radical Islamist ideology to the hilt, would not be content until they have subjugated all "infidels."

[Smile]

Thanks Peregrino.

 

I'm not against a regular jew, for i also have friends who live in Izrael and here. I'm against the policies of Izraeli and this goverments that in my opinion cause all the violence toward them and around them. Bush admited publicly that 9/11 was the outcome of our "sharp" methods of doing politics overseas. He is right about that but forgot to add that 9/11 was a home-grown product to implement their "problem-reaction-solution" scenario.

 

Here is a quote that no matter how you read can't be taken out of context...

 

"OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES."

 

 

Now, who said it?

Was it Hitler?

Was it Stalin?

 

 

Menachem Begin

(Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

[mYTHmAKER]

Thanks Peregrino.

 

I'm not against a regular jew, for i also have friends who live in Izrael and here. I'm against the policies of Izraeli and this goverments that in my opinion cause all the violence toward them and around them. Bush admited publicly that 9/11 was the outcome of our "sharp" methods of doing politics overseas. He is right about that but forgot to add that 9/11 was a home-grown product to implement their "problem-reaction-solution" scenario.

 

Here is a quote that no matter how you read can't be taken out of context...

 

"OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES."

 

 

Now, who said it?

Was it Hitler?

Was it Stalin?

 

 

Menachem Begin

(Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

 

Could you please give the source of the quote.

[Smile]

Could you please give the source of the quote.

http://littlegeneva.com/badlands/?p=1607

Also if you type in Google "Menachem Begin Master Race", you will get a lot of pages.

Not that I agree with the tone of the articles. I don't. Violence is never the answer.

[Lozen]

Somehow I doubt the credibility of the sources.

[mYTHmAKER]

http://littlegeneva.com/badlands/?p=1607

Also if you type in Google "Menachem Begin Master Race", you will get a lot of pages.

Not that I agree with the tone of the articles. I don't. Violence is never the answer.

 

When and where did he say this.

The sources you reference seem to be propaganda

and it you are perpetuating it.

[Pero]

"OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES."

 

 

Talk about NOT learning from the past....

[Smile]

When and where did he say this.

The sources you reference seem to be propaganda

and it you are perpetuating it.

Of course, you are right about the credibility of the sources.

But could you tell me what sources you can call credible these days when it comes to the subject of Izrael and Palestine?

 

From http://wais.stanford.edu/History/history_K...on(092803).html

 

"Today, seven Jewish Americans run the vast majority of US television networks, the printed press, the Hollywood movie industry, the book publishing industry, and the recording industry. Most of these industries are bundled into huge media conglomerates run by the following seven individuals:

 

Gerald Levin, CEO and Director of AOL Time Warner

 

Michael Eisner, Chairman and CEO of the Walt Disney Company

 

Edgar Bronfman, Sr., Chairman of Seagram Company Ltd

 

Edgar Bronfman, Jr, President and CEO of Seagram Company Ltd and head of Universal Studios

 

Sumner Redstone, Chairman and CEO of Viacom, Inc

 

Dennis Dammerman, Vice Chairman of General Electric

 

Peter Chernin, President and Co-COO of News Corporation Limited

 

Those seven Jewish men collectively control ABC, NBC, CBS, the Turner Broadcasting System, CNN, MTV, Universal Studios, MCA Records, Geffen Records, DGC Records, GRP Records, Rising Tide Records, Curb/Universal Records, and Interscope Records.

 

Most of the larger independent newspapers are owned by Jewish interests as well. An example is media mogul is Samuel I. "Si" Newhouse, who owns two dozen daily newspapers from Staten Island to Oregon, plus the Sunday supplement Parade; the Conde Nast collection of magazines, including Vogue, The New Yorker, Vanity Fair, Allure, GQ, and Self; the publishing firms of Random House, Knopf, Crown, and Ballantine, among other imprints; and cable franchises with over one million subscribers."

 

I could add that Michael Eisner could depart Disney tomorrow but the company will remain in the hands of Shamrock Holdings, whose principal office is now located in Israel".

[Lozen]

Yeah, you're right. Jews do control the media. I read about this in aish.com. "We have this guy Lenny (a Levite) who lives in Cleveland with his wife and two kids. All the news media in the world report to Lenny. As a news director, he is the best we've had for centuries. It was Lenny who thought up the idea that most news media should slant their coverage against Israel. He figured that if reporters give the impression that Jewish blood is cheap, no one would figure out that we were actually running things. Last year Lenny won a UJA (Underground Jewish Action) award for coming up with the idea that media should not use the word "terrorist" when a Jew was killed. Lenny inherited the media-control job from his father, who in 1942 was able to convince The New York Times and other western newspapers to bury coverage of the Holocaust on page 27."

 

Actually that lie was perpetuated in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (written by Czarist cops), and perpetuated by fascists. The press, publishing and Hollywood are dominated by banks run by WASPs.

 

What about Jack Welch and Michael H. Jordan, CEOs, respectively, of G.E. (NBC) and Westinghouse (CBS); Rupert Murdoch (who owns 20th Century-Fox); John Malone, CEO of TCI, the nation's largest cable company; maverick globalist Ted Turner; Hearst Communications, Times Mirror, the Chicago Tribune's empire, Reader's Digest Inc.--and the Shintoist directorship of Sony (which owns Columbia Studios and Tri-Star Pictures).

 

What about the major shareholders? Warren Buffett (Disney's largest investor), Bill Gates (who owns big chunks of MSNBC and Dreamworks), Gordon Crawford (who owns media holdings for Capital Group, which owns a chunk of every major player.)

 

And what about the fact that most media is owned by multinational corporations who answer to banks, insurance companies, institutional investors and advertisers?

 

And btw, I'm getting this information from fair.org, which can hardly be considered pro-Israeli.

[mYTHmAKER]

Of course, you are right about the credibility of the sources.

But could you tell me what sources you can call credible these days when it comes to the subject of Izrael and Palestine?

If I didn't know better I would think you were a bigot.

Why after saying your sources might not be credible

do you find it necessary find further fault with jews.

I think you should send copies of what you are passing

off as truth to your jewish friends.

Edited August 7, 2006 by mYTHmAKER

[mYTHmAKER]

QUOTE

"OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES."

 

Pero,

With you holding the gun in your avatar it looks like

the quote belongs to you. Scary.

What is the point of your avatar.

It doesn't look Daoist to me or promoting

self cultivation.

What image are you trying to project?

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/uploads/av-220.jpg

Edited August 7, 2006 by mYTHmAKER

[Smile]

[Smile]

And what about the fact that most media is owned by multinational corporations who answer to banks, insurance companies, institutional investors and advertisers?

Yes, you noted correctly that all of it eventually lead to the banking cartel that controls Federal Reserves.

Rothschild Bank of London

Warburg Bank of Hamburg

Rothschild Bank of Berlin

Lehman Brothers of New York

Lazard Brothers of Paris

Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York

Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy

Goldman, Sachs of New York

Warburg Bank of Amsterdam

Chase Manhattan Bank of New York

 

And who owns those banks? You quess.

[Lozen]

If you ever develop the same fervor for researching things to figure out what's really going on as you do in finding things (off of Nazi websites) that support the conclusions you've already established, maybe you'd be worth my time and energy.

[Smile]

If you ever develop the same fervor for researching things to figure out what's really going on as you do in finding things (off of Nazi websites) that support the conclusions you've already established, maybe you'd be worth my time and energy.

Nazi websites? Worth your time and energy?

You never build peace with war. People are dying because of some money and power hungry capitalists. There will never be a winner or looser. There will be a few who made billions, and you and I will be breathing Depleted uranium and guarding the oil pipe in some foreign country.

 

I just hope that those "Nazi" sites that try publicly to impeach Bush will be successful before they call you to serve when they reinstall the draft.

[mYTHmAKER]

Interesting way to argue... If I quoted FOX News, would it constitute a credible source for you?

ALL sources promote their beliefs. Just because it came from Rense.com or prisonplanet.com, doesn't mean it's baised. After all where else would you find such quotes? Disney?

 

I'm not blaming Jews. Jews are dying right now because of the their government's politics. Even the prime-minister's daughter is speaking out against this war. Is she a biggot as well? It's interesting how many people are calling you names the minute you start critisizing Israeli politics. Anything you say will be considered a hate speech.

 

J

 

Smile,

I really don't know what to say.

You didn't start by criticizing Israeli politics.

You started with a quote of Menachem Begin source unknown

which was quite offensive.

If he had actually said it I would want him strung up by his toes.

From there you went to all the jews who own newspapers and banks. (poor jews are ok)

You also say you are not against jewish individuals but the government.

Then you switched to atrocities other governments committed -

It may be true but what's that got to do with your original posts.

The Buddha would not be pleased.

[Smile]

You started with a quote of Menachem Begin source unknown

which was quite offensive.

Here is a whole list of quotes by former Israeli leaders. http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

You may say the site is not up to the standart of being reputable (does it mean state-sponsored?).

If he had actually said it I would want him strung up by his toes.

I never advocate violence of any kind. I try to show all the possibilities of what is happening so we are not playing along with the Game they created. If it was the head of Palestine or Lebanon who said that, my answer is the same.

From there you went to all the jews who own newspapers and banks. (poor jews are ok)

I never said it's NOT ok for any being to own something. All I tried to do is to show that you will never see the quotes like I posted in the public media.

You also say you are not against jewish individuals but the government.

I said the policies of the government.

Then you switched to atrocities other governments committed -

Because this is NOT something unique for just one government. See the documentary Terror Storm on how this and other governments created terror events in the past to promote their agenda. The makers use declassified information and official government documents to support their views.

It may be true but what's that got to do with your original posts.

The Buddha would not be pleased.

Buddha has only compassion. When I see the pictures of dead kids on both sides, what else is there to do?