A Buddhist rant on the nature that is Tao.

[Vajrahridaya]

[Vajrahridaya]

Obviously, over the years of being here and listening, my interpretation of Lau Tzu's explanation of the Tao meaning "The way of things, nothing, all beings" has changed, from thinking it was pointing to an ultimate reified identity of things, instead to an ever evolving (which includes devolving) process that is all inclusive.

 

Which makes it more akin, internally to me, reflective of my understanding of what the Buddha taught as Buddhadharma. YAY!!

[ralis]

 

 

Buddhas teaching reflective of his direct experience, I find is subtler. Not to create such a stringent identity of "buddhist" versus "other." As this view is far more nuanced than can be elaborated upon in a single paragraph.

 

 

 

 

No matter how you frame it, you are making an adversarial statement. You are creating a disparity between Buddhism and other systems of thought i.e, theism, Vedanta and myriad other mystical traditions.

 

I believe this may be a normal reaction to your earlier monistic idealism.

Edited June 19, 2011 by ralis

[Apech]

Obviously, over the years of being here and listening, my interpretation of Lau Tzu's explanation of the Tao meaning "The way of things, nothing, all beings" has changed, from thinking it was pointing to an ultimate reified identity of things, instead to an ever evolving (which includes devolving) process that is all inclusive.

 

Which makes it more akin, internally to me, reflective of my understanding of what the Buddha taught as Buddhadharma. YAY!!

 

I think you are right ... although some Taoist deify Lao Tzu and the Tao ... mind you some Buddhists deify Lord Buddha ... so its just a human tendency to want to have an ultimate to cling to.

[Marblehead]

Obviously, over the years of being here and listening, my interpretation of Lau Tzu's explanation of the Tao meaning "The way of things, nothing, all beings" has changed, from thinking it was pointing to an ultimate reified identity of things, instead to an ever evolving (which includes devolving) process that is all inclusive.

 

Which makes it more akin, internally to me, reflective of my understanding of what the Buddha taught as Buddhadharma. YAY!!

 

 

Yea!!!!!

[Marblehead]

I think you are right ... although some Taoist deify Lao Tzu and the Tao ... mind you some Buddhists deify Lord Buddha ... so its just a human tendency to want to have an ultimate to cling to.

 

Valid points.

 

Hey! We gotta have something or someone to blame stuff on beside ourself.

[Apech]

Valid points.

 

Hey! We gotta have something or someone to blame stuff on beside ourself.

 

I'll blame you and you can blame me, ok?

[Marblehead]

I'll blame you and you can blame me, ok?

 

That sounds like a great idea as long as we don't take any of it seriously. Hehehe.

[Vajrahridaya]

I think you are right ... although some Taoist deify Lao Tzu and the Tao ... mind you some Buddhists deify Lord Buddha ... so its just a human tendency to want to have an ultimate to cling to.

 

Yes, I was thinking that as I wrote the above. Alas, no matter how instantaneous master paths/traditions claim to be, it's still a process to get to that endless instant.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yea!!!!!

 

Marblehead, I was hoping you'd read this. YAY!!

Edited June 19, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

Yes, I was thinking that as I wrote the above. Alas, no matter how instantaneous master paths/traditions claim to be, it's still a process to get to that endless instant.

The 'process' does not have to be hard work though. Heart work more like. Once the heart takes over, it works off spontaneous impulses, like as if it takes on a life of its own. We no longer need to manufacture a process, just as we do not primarily control our heartbeat, nor do we need to. Heart work works every time... dig? We just need to create the momentum, and leave the rest to Nature. Too much meddling only befuddles the impulse.

[C T]

d p.. sorry

Edited June 19, 2011 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

Marblehead, I was hoping you'd read this. YAY!!

 

Yeah, I do follow threads of this type closely.

 

Not so interesting the title of this thread but important, I think, the description of the topic.

 

For you, dependant origin is right there in the middle but yet it isn't in the middle because it is in the middle of everything including emptiness.

 

Same with Tao. Your cause and effect is no different from my cause and effect. Sure, we use different words and sure, sometimes we have misunderstandings.

[Vajrahridaya]

The 'process' does not have to be hard work though. Heart work more like.

 

That's an interesting description. It's like once you've already committed to jumping on the escalator, it's just staying on, or remaining aware and in tune with the steps that naturally flow upward.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Yeah, I do follow threads of this type closely.

 

Not so interesting the title of this thread but important, I think, the description of the topic.

 

For you, dependant origin is right there in the middle but yet it isn't in the middle because it is in the middle of everything including emptiness.

 

Same with Tao. Your cause and effect is no different from my cause and effect. Sure, we use different words and sure, sometimes we have misunderstandings.

 

Well, dependent origination is emptiness, they are synonyms, which is why it's not merely a mechanical description of cause and effect, it's a subtler intuitive realization. The Buddha himself didn't realize the internal meaning of dependent origination/emptiness until he went through absolutely every stage, no, mastered every single stage of meditative absorption. So, it's not something that is merely some intellectual musing. He's pointing to a far deeper level of direct cognition or grokking even when he conceptually elaborates upon this.

 

As in, for me, the Tao as described by Lau Tzu, means the same thing internally, that dependent origination/emptiness does.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

 

As in, for me, the Tao as described by Lau Tzu, means the same thing internally, that dependent origination/emptiness does.

 

Agree. Different words are used, as in, different paths, same journey,and it is the words that cause things to appear to be more different than what they truely are.

 

Yes, cause and effect go much deeper than just the physical universe. (But that another story.)

 

Lao Tzu admitted that he didn't know if there was such a thing as a first cause.

 

Hehehe. Ah! Your emptiness is my fullness. More words to disagree about.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Marblehead

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Hehehe. Ah! Your emptiness is my fullness. More words to disagree about.

 

Oh Lordy! Please, lets not go down that road again. The realization of emptiness equals the fullness of being!

[Marblehead]

Oh Lordy! Please, lets not go down that road again. The realization of emptiness equals the fullness of being!

 

Hehehe. I just couldn't help myself from mentioning that.

 

Just pointing out how some words can be very misleading - misleading because of our present biases. I suppose that is why we Taoists are told to empty our mind. (No biases left.)

 

(No, I'm not real good at that yet. Hehehe.)

[Vajrahridaya]

Hehehe. I just couldn't help myself from mentioning that.

 

Just pointing out how some words can be very misleading - misleading because of our present biases. I suppose that is why we Taoists are told to empty our mind. (No biases left.)

 

(No, I'm not real good at that yet. Hehehe.)

 

Thanks MH! I agree, with the empty our mind part that is. I think you do a good job at it though.

[Marblehead]

 

Thanks MH! I agree, with the empty our mind part that is. I think you do a good job at it though.

 

And you are getting much better, my friend.

[stan herman]

That sounds like a great idea as long as we don't take any of it seriously. Hehehe.

 

Then it's not as great an idea as it could be. What a fascinating experiment it could be. For example: " I suppose that is why we Taoists are told to empty our mind. (No biases left.)

 

(No, I'm not real good at that yet. Hehehe.)"

 

Why is that Vajra's fault?

Edited June 21, 2011 by stan herman

[Marblehead]

Then it's not as great an idea as it could be. What a fascinating experiment it could be. For example: " I suppose that is why we Taoists are told to empty our mind. (No biases left.)

 

(No, I'm not real good at that yet. Hehehe.)"

 

Why is that Vajra's fault?

 

Hehehe. No, it is not VJ's fault. Never meant to suggest that. I take full responsibility for all my actions and thoughts. To blame any other, whether it be a person or a deity, for any of my shortcomings would only create illusions and delusions.

 

Yes, "no biases left". What a wonderful condition that would be. To be able to see (smell, feel, etc) every experience for exactly what it is without projection. I think that would be a goal of a true Sage.

 

But then, even setting goals is a projection. Sheeezzzee!!!!

 

This task would be much easier for me if I were a Buddhist because then I could say that everything is an illusion and that would negate any need for projection. But, happily I am a Taoist so I have more work to do. This is not a bad thing though as it is cause for me to continue to experience life to its fullest.

 

(Have I gone far enough off topic yet? Hehehe.)

[Vajrahridaya]

Hehehe. No, it is not VJ's fault. Never meant to suggest that. I take full responsibility for all my actions and thoughts. To blame any other, whether it be a person or a deity, for any of my shortcomings would only create illusions and delusions.

 

Yes, "no biases left". What a wonderful condition that would be. To be able to see (smell, feel, etc) every experience for exactly what it is without projection. I think that would be a goal of a true Sage.

 

But then, even setting goals is a projection. Sheeezzzee!!!!

 

This task would be much easier for me if I were a Buddhist because then I could say that everything is an illusion and that would negate any need for projection. But, happily I am a Taoist so I have more work to do. This is not a bad thing though as it is cause for me to continue to experience life to its fullest.

 

(Have I gone far enough off topic yet? Hehehe.)

 

Wow man... what a sweet post. By the way, for Buddhists who understand the Buddhas teaching, it's.. "Everything is 'like' and illusion"... but it's not an illusion as everything is also reality.

 

Anway... (that means I love you bro)

[Marblehead]

Wow man... what a sweet post. By the way, for Buddhists who understand the Buddhas teaching, it's.. "Everything is 'like' and illusion"... but it's not an illusion as everything is also reality.

 

Anway... (that means I love you bro)

 

Well, I did expect that my comments would stimulate you into responding but I didn't expect such a sweet response. Hehehe.

 

Yeah. The first time a guy ever told me he loved me was by a Marine friend and he said "Luv Ya!" just to make sure I didn't misunderstand his intentions.

 

Kinda hard for a chauvinistic pig like myself to tell some guy "I love you". Hehehe.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack