Is there a Purpose in Nature?

[Immortal4life]

I think one of the underlying principles behind a truly spiritual perspective and view of the universe is the understanding that there has to be purpose and meaning behind it.

 

Here is a cool article written by World-class Molecular Biologist Dr. Sermonti about how a materialist dogma that states that the universe and existence is all a meaningless occurrence, a chance accident, and with no purpose has infiltrated and held back science-

Is There a Purpose in Nature? - Giuseppe Sermonti

SCIENCE WITH MEANING, SYMBOL, AND BEAUTY

Giuseppe Sermonti

 

When the concept of "purpose" was barred out of Science, this was not for a lack of evidence. It was after the decision to purify Science from terms having metaphysical or anthropomorphic implications. The decision was motivated by a need to create a world of "precision", amenable to rigorous control and experimentation, free from psychological biases and rejecting. As a result of such self-inflicted austerity, Science produced an uninhabitable universe, 'gelid in its solitude'1).

 

Has the operation of self-censure succeeded? The result was the abolishment from the Science's world of narratives, symbols, values, meanings and purposes. In turn great results were achieved in the theorization of Nature. But were the latter the genuine result of the refusal of traditions and magic? My view is that they were not. Both in the cognitive and in the applied field Science is in debt with ancient, if not ancestral, ways of thought, which still 'contaminate' its aseptic procedures. Fritjof Capra has skillfully shown the impact of ancient Eastern mystic in the development of modern physics. A young anthropologist from Boston, Misia Landau2), has convincingly maintained that all the theories on the descent of man (from Darwin to Leakey) were but versions of the universal hero tales in folklore and myth (as theorized by Vladimir Propp). She concluded that scientists have much to gain from an awareness that they are tellers of stories. I think to have conversely shown (1986-1994) that the classic fairy tales have a robust (although concealed) scientific structure (astronomic, mineralogical, botanical).

 

My auspice is that Science will consciously (and with the due caution) accept back within its boundaries meaning, symbol and beauty, that it will become again "approximate". Only in such context "purpose" would have its legitimacy recognized and could become a central theme in biology.

 

Once we have accepted "purpose" among the legitimate terms in the observation and description of Nature; once we have given it an agreed definition, we have to consider which use we should make of the concept in reading Nature. My feeling is that we should confine its use, to the "mysterious intentions of God", and to special situations.

 

The structuralist approach of the Osaka Group is, in a sense, opposed to a functionalist approach which understands anything as directed to a practical result, adopting what one can call an economicist view of Nature. We – at least I do – have a preference for order irrespective of function, for beauty without a purpose, for structure without an end in view. According to Adolph Portman, morphological differences largely exceed any functional necessity. In vertebrates the manifestations of form have the fundamental value of exhibiting a meaning, i.e. of rending manifest, in the language of the senses, the peculiar nature of the individual living beings and of testifying to such nature in their peculiar shapes. This is what Portman calls Darstellungswert (value of presentation). D’Arcy Thompson is in a similar position when he states: "Nature simply exhibits a reflew of the forms conteplated by geometry", or "The problems of form are, first of all, mathematical problems."

 

Let me tell a little story. A small bird, Cyanosylvia svecica (blue throat), delivers his most artistic song, the objectively most complex, when relaxed, in the depth of its bush, poetizing with himself (to use an expression of Lorenz). When the song becomes functional, when the bird fights for territory or tries to attract the female, all grace is lost and one hears only the monotonous repetition of the strongest strophes. This is a case of function, ‘purpose’, destroing form and compromising beauty.

 

An example of "purpose" in Nature

 

Activation by means of a substrate in a bacterium

 

 

 

 

also-

IS THERE A PURPOSE IN NATURE?

Giuseppe Sermonti

 

About halfway through the century which is now coming to a close, after decades of positivism and materialism, the vision of Nature circulating in scientific laboratories was somber and dispiriting, to put it mildly – and this irrespective of the discovery of DNA in the fifties. In 1948 Jean Rostand wrote in his Pensees d’un biologiste:

 

Man has the sole resource of forgetting the indifferent immensity of nature, which ignores and oppresses us... For the individual everything is tragically simple. There is nothing to comprehend, nothing to expect... For us there is nothing to understand and, beyond us, no one there to be understood.

 

Thirty years later – and in the meantime DNA had made its explosive entry on the scene – Jacques Monod (Le Hasard et la necessite) came out in a similar vein:

 

The blind and disordered processes which led to our origin looked toward nothing, were directed toward nothing, they were stumbling in the dark. Man’s appearance was without purpose and without meaning.

 

It was by way of revolt against this spirit of nihilism and desperation that the Center for Theoretical Study of Charles University and the Czech Academy of Sciences in Prague organized a Central European conference, sponsored by the Sasakawa Peace Foundation, with the theme: "Is There a Purpose in Nature?" The idea came from Fritjof Capra (author of The Tao of Physics), who conducted the proceedings.

 

That science should have abandoned the concept of purpose (Aristotle’s Final Cause) is certainly not because Nature has ceased to reveal itself as "intentional". It is not as if we were constrained to do so by some established vouched-for fact. Rather, it was a matter of lexical convention, a sort of gentleman’s agreement, whereby scientists denied themselves the use of anthropomorphic or metaphysical terms, (shades of the Vienna Circle...) in their discourse. Yet they continued to meet with purposes in Nature, but they made it their rule to reject them and dismiss them as illusions.

 

While firmly opposed to the idea of Chance as the sovereign principle governing Nature, the participants at the Prague conference were nevertheless hesitant to give a simple affirmative reply to the theme question. There is no doubt that people (and certain animals) "have intentions", but is "intention" characteristic of plants and stones and the rest of Nature? The concept of intention presupposes the formation of ideas and the attempt to real-ize them. But can a bacterium or a rock form a mental image? There are two ways to address this issue. Either we can say that purpose is a property of privileged species, thereby denying it to Nature as a whole, or we can attribute a mental, psychic...character to the world around us. Such a ‘mystical’ view had the support of some of the conference participants, among them Neubauer from the Czech Republic, who anticipated the return of science to its roots. Others, however, were left perplexed, among them Capra, who had come some way from the Tao of his famous likening of quantum physics to eastern mysticism. It is possible to admit that there is some purpose in Nature, but interest has shifted, however, to meaning. If Nature and its expressions have some kind of meaning, then this would stultify Rostand’s "there’s nothing to understand." Yet, to live is to understand – to understand oneself in the context of Nature. Meaning, Capra insists, is one’s experience of the context, the ‘web’ within which we have our being and which gives meaning to our actions and to every action taking place in the world. To act meaningfully is to act with a purpose, with an end in view. Admittedly this is a "feeble" and vague version of the purpose with which the discussion was concerned – not a purpose qua intention/destiny/will (which is the "strong" version), but purpose representing the sense of anything. Does life have a purpose? Possibly, it may not have a purpose as such, but it certainly does have a sense.

 

This sense comes to man through the fact that he is part of a whole, because he shares, along with other beings and other forms, a higher purpose, namely his existence, his being part of an order, of a process, of the laws of development. In all of this there is nothing anthropomorphic (as in the "strong" version). A term which was found favorable at the conference was anthropocosmic.

 

Out of the framework thus described, the Gaia system readily emerged. The Gaians see the Earth as an integrated organism, a whole striving to conserve itself and render itself habitable. In Gaia we are part of a more vast system, of a greater purpose – in other words, the Earth. In this way, ‘finalism’ converges with ‘ecology’. In his later works, Capra refers to "deep ecologism.” Is there a purpose in Nature? Maybe there isn’t, but there is ecology, don’t forget.

 

But is this an adequate answer? In a time when the ecologists have become a part of the political left, the proposed solution is too narrow. As Mae-Wan Ho remarked, besides the ecological, there are the scientific and aesthetic connections. Again, can one speak of a connection unless there is a feeling as well? Awareness of purpose in Nature is something that must get us involved, impassioned, and not have us stop short at the realization of a network, of a web that holds us together in a coordinated fashion.

 

That being so, a return to the mysticism of purpose is inevitable (even if Capra now prefers his Web to his Tao). Before any physical formulation of connections among beings, there must first be the appraisal of Franciscan poverty, the re-establishment of a more direct relationship with Nature – Nature being now in danger due to an invasive technology – as in the talking to the birds, to the Wolf of Gubbio, to sister water, to sister sun; addresses which are not anticipatory of ecosystems or of Gaia, but a mystical participation in the whole, where there is no incongruity with Francis’ Laudato si’ mi Signore.

 

What, then, is the answer to our question "Is there a purpose in Nature?" To be sure, an answer to this kind of question is not something that can come out of a conference in which each participant is expected to represent and maintain his position. There were several different answers and reference has been made to these above. Meanwhile, what is important is that the question was put forth in scientific circles, and the fact that it was put forth in the heart of Europe which is itself seeking a connection, a meaning, a purpose. When all is said and done, what else is purpose if not a self-questioning as to where one is going – what else, if not the posing of a question to oneself that expects a reply?

Edited June 19, 2011 by Immortal4life

[ralis]

I think one of the underlying principles behind a truly spiritual perspective and view of the universe is the understanding that there has to be purpose and meaning behind it.

 

Here is a cool article written by World-class Molecular Biologist Dr. Sermonti about how a materialist dogma that states that the universe and existence is all a meaningless occurrence with no meaning or purpose has infiltrated and held back science-

Is There a Purpose in Nature? - Giuseppe Sermonti

 

 

 

 

 

also-

 

 

Why do you persist on this preaching? Sermonti is an ID advocate!

[Marblehead]

It is my personal opinion that there is no purpose in anything as there is no conscious entity proposing a purpose.

 

However, because nature is, apparently its evolution is a result of the processes in the universe. Therefore the only purpose I could ever suggest is it is simply Tao expressing itself.

 

Stars come and go. All those stars' planets go with them when they go. I would never be able to see any purpose in creating something just to destroy it a little later in time.

[Immortal4life]

It is my personal opinion that there is no purpose in anything as there is no conscious entity proposing a purpose.

 

How do you know? You know that you have consciousness which controls your actions and influences your development, so are you saying your consciousness is the highest that exists in the Universe?

 

In fact mind, consciousness and awareness, is a fundamental nature of existence. Everything has consciousness and a soul. From a mineral, to a blade of grass, to plants, to animals, to humans, to solar systems and the Universe itself.

 

However, because nature is, apparently its evolution is a result of the processes in the universe. Therefore the only purpose I could ever suggest is it is simply Tao expressing itself.

 

Is that so simple and meaningless?

 

Stars come and go. All those stars' planets go with them when they go. I would never be able to see any purpose in creating something just to destroy it a little later in time.

 

Remember, nothing in the universe is ever truly destroyed. Matter and energy are not destroyed. Mind and Soul are never destroyed. They are only transformed.

 

If you look at the word Qi, some people interpret it as vapors rising. Rising, why? This to me indicates something much larger going on, the Law of Evolution in the Universe, which is that all Vibrations and all energies, continuously raise in frequency over time. So with this in mind, it becomes easier to understand why some things appear to not be eternal, and eventually are transformed. In order to raise in vibrational frequency, to higher levels of existence.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Immortal4life

[C T]

I 4 Life,

 

 

What's your definition of 'soul', if its okay to ask? Just curious.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I must say you did good with your response.

 

How do you know? You know that you have consciousness which controls your actions and influences your development, so are you saying your consciousness is the highest that exists in the Universe?

 

I never said I know - I said it is my opinion.

 

In fact mind, consciousness and awareness, is a fundamental nature of existence. Everything has consciousness and a soul. From a mineral, to a blade of grass, to plants, to animals, to humans, to solar systems and the Universe itself.

 

I can agree with you only if you use the word Chi (Qi) instead of "consciousness and a soul".

 

It that so simple and meaningless?

 

In my opinion, Yes. But let's not get nihilistic here because I am far from that.

 

Remember, nothing in the universe is ever truly destroyed. Matter and energy are not destroyed. Mind and Soul are never destroyed. They are only transformed.

 

That is very true regarding matter and energy. It is absolutely not true of mind, IMO, but I can't say about soul because we would first have to agree on a definition of the word "soul" before I could comment.

 

If you look at the word Qi, some people interpret it as vapors rising. Rising, why? This to me indicates something much larger going on, the Law of Evolution in the Universe, which is that all Vibrations and all energies, continuously raise in frequency over time. So with this in mind, it becomes easier to understand why some things appear to not be eternal, and eventually are transformed. In order to raise in vibrational frequency, to higher levels of existence.

 

I really tried to understand the concept of energy vibrational variations a few years ago but it never fit into my brain so I can't talk about that. (Actually, higher levels of existence doesn't fit either.)

 

[Immortal4life]

I would say the Soul is the inherent intangible qualities and consciousness behind material existence. The material shell or body is the expression of it's latent consciousness and qualities. The soul is what holds matter together through attraction as an individualized expression of Life and Mind. Therefore the Soul is closely linked to Mind, as well as the qualities of Life, Truth/Law/Order, and Love/Attraction. Therefore all things have a Soul, from the tiniest electron to the largest solar systems

 

All of material existence is ultimately vibration. Vibrations continually rise. They get finer and finer, and raise to higher and higher levels of existence. They may have periods of quick development, and periods of slow development or even decline. They may go through cycles, but ultimately in the long run, even if it is 1 step forward and 0.9999 steps back, ultimately all things progress and rise higher and higher.

[C T]

I would say the Soul is the inherent intangible qualities and consciousness behind material existence. The material shell or body is the expression of it's latent consciousness and qualities. The soul is what holds matter together through attraction as an individualized expression of Life and Mind. Therefore the Soul is closely linked to Mind, as well as the qualities of Life, Truth/Law/Order, and Love/Attraction. Therefore all things have a Soul, from the tiniest electron to the largest solar systems

 

All of material existence is ultimately vibration. Vibrations continually rise. They get finer and finer, and raise to higher and higher levels of existence. They may have periods of quick development, and periods of slow development or even decline. They may go through cycles, but ultimately in the long run, even if it is 1 step forward and 0.9999 steps back, ultimately all things progress and rise higher and higher.

Like evolution, you mean?

 

If its intangible, why label it 'soul'? Is it like 'essence'?

Edited June 19, 2011 by CowTao

[Immortal4life]

Certainly there must be a simply enormous, large scale, almost Universal, Law of Evolution.

 

However, the current "theory of evolution", does not incorporate anything like this. In fact, it "rules out" the principles of Mind and Soul. It does everything it possibly can to eliminate Consciousness, Universal Order, Purpose, or Meaning from the picture scientists try to conceive of for it.

 

Soul I think is more than just essence. Energy and Life are the essence behind all physical beings in the universe, but the Soul is also the non-physical consciousness, order, and Attractive powers.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Immortal4life

[C T]

Certainly there must be a simply enormous, large scale, almost Universal, Law of Evolution.

 

However, the current "theory of evolution", does not incorporate anything like this. In fact, it "rules out" the principles of Mind and Soul. It does everything it possibly can to eliminate Consciousness, Universal Order, Purpose, or Meaning from the picture scientists try to conceive of for it.

 

Soul I think is more than just essence. Energy and Life are the essence behind all physical beings in the universe, but the Soul is also the non-physical consciousness, order, and Attractive powers.

Yes, the scale does appear rather enormous indeed. Hard to fathom the width and the depth of it, if one delves deeper.

 

I think there are certain brilliant-minded individuals who are currently attempting to bridge the gap between Science and Consciousness/Mind. One whom i can think of is Alan Wallace. A taste of his words here -

[C T]

sorry d.p.

Edited June 19, 2011 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

I would say the Soul is the inherent intangible qualities and consciousness behind material existence. The material shell or body is the expression of it's latent consciousness and qualities. The soul is what holds matter together through attraction as an individualized expression of Life and Mind. Therefore the Soul is closely linked to Mind, as well as the qualities of Life, Truth/Law/Order, and Love/Attraction. Therefore all things have a Soul, from the tiniest electron to the largest solar systems

 

All of material existence is ultimately vibration. Vibrations continually rise. They get finer and finer, and raise to higher and higher levels of existence. They may have periods of quick development, and periods of slow development or even decline. They may go through cycles, but ultimately in the long run, even if it is 1 step forward and 0.9999 steps back, ultimately all things progress and rise higher and higher.

 

Okay, what you refer to as soul I refer to as Chi or Spirit. I understand soul to be a person's unconscious mind.

 

Also, the way you speak of 'mind' indicates that mind exists exclusive of body and I do not accept that concept.

 

Yes, all things have their Chi, there 'thusness'. But this is not a conscious thusness.

[dawei]

My glib answer is YES.

 

 

I would say the Soul is the inherent intangible qualities and consciousness behind material existence. The material shell or body is the expression of it's latent consciousness and qualities. The soul is what holds matter together through attraction as an individualized expression of Life and Mind. Therefore the Soul is closely linked to Mind, as well as the qualities of Life, Truth/Law/Order, and Love/Attraction. Therefore all things have a Soul, from the tiniest electron to the largest solar systems

 

All of material existence is ultimately vibration. Vibrations continually rise. They get finer and finer, and raise to higher and higher levels of existence.

I think what holds matter together is Qi; it is the universal web in all things which allows everything to communicate with everything else.

 

Certainly there must be a simply enormous, large scale, almost Universal, Law of Evolution.

 

However, the current "theory of evolution", does not incorporate anything like this. In fact, it "rules out" the principles of Mind and Soul. It does everything it possibly can to eliminate Consciousness, Universal Order, Purpose, or Meaning from the picture scientists try to conceive of for it.

 

Soul I think is more than just essence. Energy and Life are the essence behind all physical beings in the universe, but the Soul is also the non-physical consciousness, order, and Attractive powers.

I think something like the "Law of Emergence" would be better but maybe no more clear.

 

In chinese theory, the 3 Hun (from heaven) and 7 Po (from earth) make up the soul(s). The hun is the spiritual consciousness which connects to the divine energy and makes up the energetic movement of the shen (seated in the heart)/body/mind. The po soul associates to the jing essence and our senses and responds to the energy of the earth.

 

I think anything which emerges has some purpose (or process or path) it will take. Thus, the source of that emerging has endowed that path. That may be "De" (ie: the Dao in you) but I have not thought through it that far.

[doc benway]

I think one of the underlying principles behind a truly spiritual perspective and view of the universe is the understanding that there has to be purpose and meaning behind it.

 

Do you really believe that you can understand God's intentions?

That means that your level of awareness and intelligence are on par with God.

Is that what you are telling us?

If there is a purpose in the universe in the sense you describe, what makes you think that our feeble human intelligence could fathom what that would look like?

 

Purpose and meaning are creations of human thought.

They are born of desire.

You can recognize purpose in the universe if you project your desires onto it.

It's very simple.

This is just another example of how you create God in your image.

Edited June 20, 2011 by steve f

[ralis]

Do you really believe that you can understand God's intentions?

That means that your level of awareness and intelligence are on par with God.

Is that what you are telling us?

If there is a purpose in the universe in the sense you describe, what makes you think that our feeble human intelligence could fathom what that would look like?

 

Purpose and meaning are creations of human thought.

They are born of desire.

You can recognize purpose in the universe if you project your desires onto it.

It's very simple.

This is just another example of how you create God in your image.

 

That needed to be said.

[Immortal4life]

Do you really believe that you can understand God's intentions?

 

What would be the point of so many great teachers coming to teach about God's "intentions"? In fact Jesus taught exactly this, he said "Your will be done Father, not mine, in me and through me"

 

Not only can a Human being understand to some degree, but can live it, approximate it, follow it, feel it, be one with, and channel it.

 

This is the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, the Universal Will, and the Universal Spirit.

 

That means that your level of awareness and intelligence are on par with God.

Is that what you are telling us?

 

On Par with?

 

The "purpose" of consciousness, of a complete being, is to be one with, to channel, Universal Will through their own Soul and Being.

 

If there is a purpose in the universe in the sense you describe, what makes you think that our feeble human intelligence could fathom what that would look like?

 

We are indeed the likeness and image of the Absolute, an individualized projection, a microcosm of the Absolute. We can manifest all the qualities from within ourselves that go along with that.

 

In fact you have more qualities and abilities than just your self professed "feeble" human intelligence. Perhaps though at the moment even less developed than your intellect.

 

Purpose and meaning are creations of human thought.

They are born of desire.

You can recognize purpose in the universe if you project your desires onto it.

It's very simple.

This is just another example of how you create God in your image.

 

We live in the real world. Matter is real. The Universe is real. It is not just a huge illusion born of Mind. Purpose exists outside of human beings, and outside of human comprehension as well. If we take this view we may perhaps develop in mind and awareness, but lack other aspects of being.

[Immortal4life]

I think what holds matter together is Qi; it is the universal web in all things which allows everything to communicate with everything else.

 

 

Yes, but why is there differentiation? Why are there separate beings? Billions of Stars? All forms of Life in one complete Circle of Life? Different concentrations of Qi? Why not one undifferentiated ocean of Qi?

 

This is why I call God the Great First Causeless Cause.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Stigweard]

Purpose???

 

Nope, just life doing the do

[Marblehead]

Yes, but why is there differentiation? Why are there separate beings? Billions of Stars? All forms of Life in one complete Circle of Life? Different concentrations of Qi? Why not one undifferentiated ocean of Qi?

 

This is why I call God the Great First Causeless Cause.

 

Chi is universal - the energy of the universe. There is also a thing's personal Chi - that energy that gives it 'thusness'. Different things have different levels, amounts, whatever, of personal Chi and it is this energy that allows things to be different.

 

But yes, there is still the underlying ocean of Chi - Universal Chi.

 

You call this God. Doesn't matter what label we put on it, it is still exactly and only what it is.

 

There is differentiation because that is the process of manifestation. The purpose in this? Ha!!!

[dawei]

Purpose???

 

Nope, just life doing the do

What if "just life doing the do" is the purpose?

 

I think purpose is maybe the wrong word but I am not completely against what I see as something higher going on. As Marblehead said, one can use various names but I also see it as the process of manifestation. Does that mean I see it as Dao? No.

 

I personally see Dao as part of something whole; it is the process of that Grand Unity.

[ralis]

In this case, purpose is being defined from a human point of view. Anthropocentrism has dominated religious discourse for centuries.

[therion]

Yes there seems to be a purpose to existence. I see physical reality as dao branching out and trying to perfect itself. The whole of existence is working towards this purpose. We as humans are used for dao's grand evolution towards perfection. For this the carrot on a stick principle is at work. Ordinary humans are not supposed to find this out as it is a threat to the whole super-organism that we are part of. So when you practice techniques for immortality and enlightenment you are doing something that goes against the dao. If it was dao's intention ordinary humans would already be born with supernatural powers and physical immortality. But this is not the case. The prototype named human is far from perfect and at some point new type of being will come into existence possessing powers and intelligence we can't even fathom. This being will be made up from the collected wisdom of all homo-sapiens' experience since the first one appeared on this planet.

 

After a person dies via its shen an energetic data imprint is transmitted into dao's grand super mind/intelligence/heart matrix updating its info/data/wisdom. That's how the dao learns. It is not all knowing and perfect but is constantly evolving, updating, upgrading. Therefore what the ancients were doing is hacking into the dao or riding the wave back. Power is not supposed to be concentrated in such large amounts as for example in Wang Liping or Padmasambhava. It's just that they were transmitted teachings that showed them a way to hack into the heart of reality. It's comforting to know that increase in power usually goes hand in hand with an increase in spontaneous virtue. Otherwise who knows what could happen if a very evil being got hold of this power. But at some point it is inevitable. That's why the teachings are guarded and transmitted mostly to those of high spontaneous non-intentional virtue. Real masters know who is in front of them. You are naked like a book.

 

Simply observe the development of our present western civilization and you will see an exact replica of what the dao is doing on a grand scale. Everyone can have justice now. Try pulling that shit off in medieval europe. You can talk to people in an instant on the other side of the planet. Could you do this in the stone age?? Why do you think there exist billions of galaxies with billions of stars? Think about it. Is there a part of your body that is obsolete? By the time we as humans evolve possessing immortality is also the time we will have developed technology to travel, spread and colonize the rest of the galaxy which will somehow have evolved into possessing everything that type of human needs to survive and thrive. Maybe we will look different but one thing is for sure. We will have greater capacity for virtue, greater intelligence and ingenuity but also a greater capacity to do evil. It's the yin & yang aspect of the dao always working towards balance and harmony.

 

All this talk about ordinary life being purposeless is BS but you might want to think about the consequences of walking the spiritual path aka messing with the very mechanisms of the matrix of reality.

[doc benway]

What would be the point of so many great teachers coming to teach about God's "intentions"? In fact Jesus taught exactly this, he said "Your will be done Father, not mine, in me and through me"

 

You are answering my question with itself. You have given no answer.

Why be so concerned with what some dead dude said a few thousand years ago?

Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed - all dead and rotted. Better to open our eyes and hearts and minds and live NOW.

 

 

Not only can a Human being understand to some degree, but can live it, approximate it, follow it, feel it, be one with, and channel it.

This is the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, the Universal Will, and the Universal Spirit.

 

You are projecting human intention, expectation, desire, and thought form onto the image you have created of a personal deity.

It's fine if that is your preference, I just think it helps to be aware of it.

 

 

On Par with?

 

The "purpose" of consciousness, of a complete being, is to be one with, to channel, Universal Will through their own Soul and Being.

 

This is your gratuitous assertion and, in fact, it means exactly the same as Stig's assertion.

We are doing the universe's dance. However you choose to name it.

 

 

We are indeed the likeness and image of the Absolute, an individualized projection, a microcosm of the Absolute. We can manifest all the qualities from within ourselves that go along with that.

In fact you have more qualities and abilities than just your self professed "feeble" human intelligence. Perhaps though at the moment even less developed than your intellect.

 

Actually, I agree with you to a large degree on this. I have lived it and continue to try to do so in daily life. By "feeble" intelligence I refer mostly to thought. It is very limited and can never approach the Divine. I fully agree the "we" are much more than that (and much less).

 

 

 

 

We live in the real world. Matter is real. The Universe is real. It is not just a huge illusion born of Mind. Purpose exists outside of human beings, and outside of human comprehension as well. If we take this view we may perhaps develop in mind and awareness, but lack other aspects of being.

 

Real? What is that? No one can define what is real and what is mind. Everything you perceive is inside your head. You define the universe and the universe defines you. You still have not demonstrated any support for your gratuitous assertion that purpose exists outside of human beings. If it does, in fact, exist outside of human comprehension, to use your words, how could you possibly know that? And what would it matter? Whether or not purpose exists outside of humanity, does that need to make any difference? Can we lead a compassionate, moral, and loving life irrespective of whether there is some incomprehensible purpose outside of human awareness? Do you really need divine justification and motivation? Why not do the beautiful dance for the sake of yourself and those around you? Is that not enough? There is no greater charity than that done unawares.

 

 

In this case, purpose is being defined from a human point of view. Anthropocentrism has dominated religious discourse for centuries.

Very true. And I think it is a natural tendency - what other frame of reference do we have?

It's sort of like the abused child that abuses his children - certainly didn't enjoy the experience as a child but that's his frame of reference to work from.

[Aaron]

The purpose of Nature and everything within Nature is survival, anything more is just a construct of mental conditioning.

 

Aaron

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think humans have a different purpose than other animals. I suppose each animal might have it's own pupose, like bees pollinate the plants. Really, if you look at humans from any other animals perspective, we're like SPIRITS, forces of nature which can take any physical thing in existence and CHANGE it to make it do something else. To other animals, we are like the weirdest things in nature since we go around taking pieces of the environment and reforming EVERYTHING around us.

 

As the Native Americans say, we are the caretakers of the earth. If you look at the beauty in that, it's quite awesome. We are (supposed to be) like these benevolent beings that walk around making plants grow here, fixing water currents there, and creating the environment that is needed for our survival.

 

In many cases the environment doesn't need to be changed for our survival, but we as humans have a very unique role.

 

On the other hand, I think that animals probably see humans as having this higher role, but at the same time we are ignorant of a lot of things which can be learned from animals attunement to nature. This is not to say that "Dogs have the Buddha nature" since other animals do not have the same opportunity to conquer passions (not inspiration, but lust, greed, selfishness).