Is there a Purpose in Nature?

[Marblehead]

Bahahaha ... the nostalgic memories of a lost youth must be entertaining for an old man yes ??

 

 

Hehehe. Yep. I've still got my memories.

 

I got a really big smile from a young lady the other day when I commented to the cost of an item I was purchasing. The charge was $10.69. I suppose you can imagine what my comments might have been.

 

Yes Folks, that is part of the purpose of Nature too.

[Aaron]

Your example with the sticks in the fire sounds to me more like superstition than spirituality. If you impute a relation between an action and a result which doesn't exist then I would call this superstition. Spirituality on the other hand suggests real relationships between events and results beyond that which is immediately apparent or perhaps beyond the mundane.

 

To suggest that life is all about survival seems to beg the question - survive for what? Just to exist? Our efforts to understand and become wiser or to develop Te are not just so that we can exist - but so that we can live in a better way. We don't have to explain if or why the universe may want us to become wiser or more sage like but if we take up the Taoist way then we automatically accept that somehow this is the way. Life stops being just about surviving to the next meal but about something greater and better. We don't have to anthropomorphize nature to say this... in fact I don't think we even have to say why it is so ... its part of mystery ...maybe.

 

 

Hello Apech,

 

In a way spirituality is superstitious. Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hiduism, etc. all are superstitious, yet under the surface there is something deeper. People here me say, "life is about survival" and they immediately get this "Lord of the Flies", "Apocalypse Now" type of idea in their head, when that's not exactly what I'm talking about. Survival is more than just simply trying to live as long as you can. The mother lion who confront the hyenas to defend her cub is an example of survival on a deeper level. The fact is we are supposed to have a deep and fulfilling life, but the key is not found in enlightenment, salvation, or an altered state of consciousness, it's found in understanding that in this moment you are doing what you are intended to do, so long as you do what is beneficial for you and your loved ones. It's that simple.

 

This idea that life has to have some deep purpose or cause is just a way for us to behave in a decent way with one another. Moralism, spirituality, etc. are all tools for social conformity and by no means are they bad things, in fact I advocate the practice of Zen, but I also understand what it is at its root and that it is not necessary or required. One can go their entire life without hearing the word "Zen" yet in one instance understand exactly what it is. Dogma, conformity, and society have nothing to do with survival. They have no purpose within the realm of nature, because they are constructs that only exist within our head.

 

Breathe deep and listen to what the world is saying and I think more often than not you will understand the purpose and in understanding you will stop having to ask the question.

 

Aaron

Edited June 26, 2011 by Twinner

[ChiDragon]

Nature has no purpose because it is natural with the balance of the Yin and Yang. As far as the Tao Te Ching was concern, Heaven, Earth, Human, and Tao are four separate entities. Human was caught in between Heaven, earth and Tao. According to LaoTze, human is not part of Nature because human has to cope with Nature all the time by following the principles of Heaven, Earth, and Tao. Human are straw dogs as LaoTze putted.

 

All animals are part of Nature because their physical protection are provide by Nature from adverse weather conditions but humans are not. Human has to deal with animals to survive. Thus that was considered to be dealing with Nature in a philosophical sense which isolates human from Nature. From the Nature's point of view, Nature has no purpose. However, from the human's point of view, the purpose of Nature is for the survival of human.

According the Zhuang Tze, everything in the universe is Tao. Thus heaven, earth and human are part of tao(small t). Zhuang Tze's meaning of tao is like it was a principle with reasons. Heaven, earth and human are being in the universe as a whole for a reason. This reason he called it tao. The things that heaven, earth and human are committed for various reasons. All these reasons are just tao. Hence, the tao of ZhuangTze is different from the Tao of LaoTze.

 

Nature to Zhuang Tze is tao because Nature just happens to be there. In LaoTze's mind, if there is no Tao, then there is no Nature.

Edited June 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

Hello Apech,

 

In a way spirituality is superstitious. Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hiduism, etc. all are superstitious, yet under the surface there is something deeper. People here me say, "life is about survival" and they immediately get this "Lord of the Flies", "Apocalypse Now" type of idea in their head, when that's not exactly what I'm talking about. Survival is more than just simply trying to live as long as you can. The mother lion who confront the hyenas to defend her cub is an example of survival on a deeper level. The fact is we are supposed to have a deep and fulfilling life, but the key is not found in enlightenment, salvation, or an altered state of consciousness, it's found in understanding that in this moment you are doing what you are intended to do, so long as you do what is beneficial for you and your loved ones. It's that simple.

 

This idea that life has to have some deep purpose or cause is just a way for us to behave in a decent way with one another. Moralism, spirituality, etc. are all tools for social conformity and by no means are they bad things, in fact I advocate the practice of Zen, but I also understand what it is at its root and that it is not necessary or required. One can go their entire life without hearing the word "Zen" yet in one instance understand exactly what it is. Dogma, conformity, and society have nothing to do with survival. They have no purpose within the realm of nature, because they are constructs that only exist within our head.

 

Breathe deep and listen to what the world is saying and I think more often than not you will understand the purpose and in understanding you will stop having to ask the question.

 

Aaron

 

If you mean by superstition the original sense of 'standing above' then I suppose religions are superstitious in that they suggest better ways of being. However the modern use of this word is about imputing a completely arbitrary relation between a cause and an effect.

 

I am not a religious person in the usual sense and I don't have much time for priests or popes (mullahs?) etc because the try to wrap up the truth in some kind of package. But I would say the core spiritual values of most religions are valid ... i.e you can be a better person, live a better life ,,, be kinder, more loving and so on ... this is not survival ... its about being free to express yourself in a genuine way.

 

Does nature or the world have this purpose? Possibly not in itself ... but then on what does nature depend?

[stan herman]

... but then on what does nature depend?

 

Now that is an interesting question. I suppose it depends on what one means by 'nature'. Most commonly it's defined as phenomena of the physical world. But some people have a definition that also includes the non-physical as well. I would say physical nature depends on matter of all kinds, and a perceiver who separates the matter and gives the pieces names.