Obsession with old, dead guys...

[doc benway]

Sometimes I wonder why it is that we tend to be so obsessed with words that are attributed to people (primarily men) who died thousands of years ago.

 

First of all, I can't get reliable informations regarding something that happened yesterday, let alone 2,000 years ago...

Second, I'm invariably reading words written by disciples who undoubtedly had their own interpretations and agendas...

Third, I do try to do my own translations of Chinese (with limited results) but in general I'm depending on translations of Chinese, Sanskrit, and Pali which are further corrupted by interpretation of the translator who may or may not be learned in the material...

 

 

Certainly there have been a few great thinkers and lots of great thoughts. And some of these thoughts have been accurately captured on paper and some corrupted. But why should I think that someone else's thoughts and concepts are a path that will lead me in the "right" direction? It seems to me that it has been the original thinkers that have made breakthroughs, not their followers.

The trailblazer makes discoveries, their followers just find footsteps... And it is very easy to get stuck following someone else's footsteps. If you are staring at someone else's footsteps, you never see what is all around you.

[Otis]

Hear, hear!

[Nanashi]

I can agree that there's a fine line between inspiration and obsession, but as the old saying about masters goes, "seek what they sought."

 

Basho often lamented that he considered his works would never compare to those of Saigyo, but that he followed his footsteps. I'm pretty sure most non-Japanese are more aware of Basho now.

[Em.]

But why should I think that someone else's thoughts and concepts are a path that will lead me in the "right" direction? It seems to me that it has been the original thinkers that have made breakthroughs, not their followers.

 

 

Kudos!

[Vajrahridaya]

I can agree that there's a fine line between inspiration and obsession, but as the old saying about masters goes, "seek what they sought."

 

Exactly, it's also pretty egotistical to think that "I" alone exist as well and get lost in some sense of personal self importance.

 

I'm very happy to have living examples as inspiration of what it's like to live in what should be sought. Also, even if we are to walk on a path trotted on by endless others, we walk it in our own unique way. Everyone has the potential to add to what is by nature inspiration itself too.

[Vajrahridaya]

But why should I think that someone else's thoughts and concepts are a path that will lead me in the "right" direction?

 

By your level of experienced inspiration. Also, I go for the people that taught with clarity from multiple angles of revelation, who also leave the methods and instructions on these methods by which they got to the clarity they speak of with such clarity.

 

For me, it's obvious which of these trail blazers did that with the most clarity having taught incessantly for 45 years many different methods and perspectives, leaving behind many different unbroken lineages of "Awake" beings that are alive to this day.

 

The Buddha is not dead.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The answers are found within ourselves, but it helps when someone can lead us to them. Reading too much and asking for answers at every turn would be focusing on the finger pointing at the moon.

[Immortal4life]

I'm very happy to have living examples as inspiration of what it's like to live in what should be sought. Also, even if we are to walk on a path trotted on by endless others, we walk it in our own unique way. Everyone has the potential to add to what is by nature inspiration itself too.

 

I agree that many of those who came before, came to be examples. It is very easy to distort someone's teachings, but not quite as easy to distort the example they lived.

 

There is a saying, we became great because we stood on the shoulders of giants.

 

I believe you need some sort of path, to find your way. If you were going on a journey into the jungle, would you just blaze your own path, or would it be helpful to follow the paths of those who came before to one extent or another? Even better would be to have a living guide with you.

[Vajrahridaya]

I agree that many of those who came before, came to be examples. It is very easy to distort someone's teachings, but not quite as easy to distort the example they lived.

 

There is a saying, we became great because we stood on the shoulders of giants.

 

I believe you need some sort of path, to find your way. If you were going on a journey into the jungle, would you just blaze your own path, or would it be helpful to follow the paths of those who came before to one extent or another? Even better would be to have a living guide with you.

 

So very true!

[Sloppy Zhang]

People have ALWAYS glorified the past. A preface to a book written by an ancient Roman historian from 2,000 years ago started off with "I look around at the times now and weep, the country is failing, government is corrupt, youths these days have no value and disrespect their parents, if only I was around during the founding of Rome, but since I can't, I'll just write about it" (or something along those lines).

 

But the point is it isn't new. History is associated with "authenticity". We see the corruption and dirtiness of our modern world, and since we look to the past at all they didn't have (our technology, world dominance, size, prominence, etc etc) we assume that they were somehow "better" than us. That they didn't have our temptations and distractions.

 

When really we forget that it is all just human nature to be tempted and to be corrupt. No matter what the form, the underlying issues will be the same.

 

On top of that we assume that since it is "old", that it "works". Why reinvent the wheel, right? If people have kept it around for so long, it must have some value.

 

So yeah, there are a lot of reasons why we might be obsessed with old, dead guys.

 

 

But that's not to say that we should throw out the "old wisdom". That would be arrogance. If someone has already said it and said it well, why waste your time trying to say it a "new" way, when it will only be a cheap, shallow version? If someone has already built it, and it works fabulously, why do it some other way? (case in point, the square wheels that work just as well as round wheels provided they "roll" across a surface with the proper grooves.

 

That isn't to say that we can't be innovative, or we can't look to new, cutting edge ideas and processes. I'm just saying be smart about it. Know when something can be approved upon, and know when something is just as it should be. Have the confidence to step off the path, but the humility to follow the advice of the road markers you'll see along the way.

 

Or perhaps another way of looking at it is to borrow a metaphor from some old, dead guys. "Stand on the shoulders of giants". Make advancements, reach higher and higher levels, bet realize that the progress you've made is only because of the people who came before you, just as the people who come after you will stand on your shoulders and advance.

[suninmyeyes]

Sometimes I wonder why it is that we tend to be so obsessed with words that are attributed to people (primarily men) who died thousands of years ago.

 

Becouse the world is overmasculinasied(I made up a word again)and out of balance. Most of us have learned(almost took for granted as the most important way of learning) to get inspired primarily by words and pointers .

Forgetting feminine way of reading the nature, her patterns ,feeling interconnected with life,paying attention and deep listening which is a very different way of learning.

The word itself is masculine.It defines and points.It aids linear thinking which is again masculine by nature.These things are taken for granted and a norm and are so deeply ingraved that it is almost impossible to to see , feel and enjoy things any other way.

That is why.

(When I mention masculine it has no gender .)

[gendao]

Sometimes I wonder why it is that we tend to be so obsessed with words that are attributed to people (primarily men) who died thousands of years ago.

I think many are obsessed with those who were publically known to have achieved great things - many of whom just happen to be old dead men now. It's not really an obsession with "old dead men" though - as the vast, vast majority of them were totally forgotten and barely even known publically when alive.

 

In addition, there's many people today whose words carry a lot of weight based upon what they've been known to accomplish thus far. So again, it is not limited to old dead people - but accredited people (whether old, young, dead, alive, etc.). Just more of these happen to be "old dead men."

Edited June 21, 2011 by vortex

[goldisheavy]

Sometimes I wonder why it is that we tend to be so obsessed with words that are attributed to people (primarily men) who died thousands of years ago.

 

Since I've been hugely caught in this precise phenomenon myself, I feel I am very well positioned to give an honest reply to this.

 

Why the old guys?

 

Well, I want whatever is authentic. I think that if some ideas have survived the test of time, they are more likely to be authentic. Hence my obsession with the ancient wisdom.

 

The more ancient, the better. Right? Well, not exactly. After all, while I greatly enjoy the early pagan and shamanic spirituality, I wouldn't place them above Buddha's wisdom in terms of insight and general quality. So this is where "anything ancient is good" breaks down. Once we start down the rabbit hole of questioning teachings, there is no end. By this time I question everything, including Buddha. That's why I reject many features of Buddhist thinking today, even though for the longest time it was my favorite school of thought (and in some ways, still is).

 

Needless to say, I no longer believe that whatever is ancient is authentic and whatever is modern is fake. But I've been caught chasing my historical tail for so long, I figured I could give you an honest answer.

Edited June 20, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The answers are found within ourselves, but it helps when someone can lead us to them. Reading too much and asking for answers at every turn would be focusing on the finger pointing at the moon.

 

The Lesser Truth that we do know is more valuable than the Greater Truth we only search for in books....

[Sloppy Zhang]

The Lesser Truth that we do know is more valuable than the Greater Truth we only search for in books....

 

Unless that book prompts us to an insight we never would have gotten no matter how long we spent alone in a cave

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Unless that book prompts us to an insight we never would have gotten no matter how long we spent alone in a cave

 

Yeah.. I didn't feel like editing it... but you know what I mean

[Vajrahridaya]

But I've been caught chasing my historical tail for so long, I figured I could give you an honest answer.

 

That's a loooong tale... oh I mean tail.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yeah.. I didn't feel like editing it... but you know what I mean

 

I'm just tired of people thinking that insight and books, wisdom and books, or experience and books are mutually exclusive, and that if you don't have a real life teacher you are wasting your time.

 

Gaining experience and insight is about YOU. You could be with the highest master in the cosmos, but if you aren't ready to get the experience and the insight necessary for advancement, you won't. And if you ARE ready for the experience and the insight, then you will get it, even if it's a book you bought off e-bay for $4.50 that promised instant enlightenment.

 

Or you could get it just living life, never hearing of enlightenment. Or you can get it watching tv. Being on a date. Having a drink. Playing a sport. Anything.

 

Gaining experience means having experiences which involve you experiencing them. And there's no telling where you will or will not find them.

[doc benway]

I believe you need some sort of path, to find your way. If you were going on a journey into the jungle, would you just blaze your own path, or would it be helpful to follow the paths of those who came before to one extent or another? Even better would be to have a living guide with you.

Ah, but we are not talking about a trail in the jungle. We are talking about a trail through YOUR psychology, philosophy, culturalization, and conditioning. Your personality which is a unique culmination of your genetics and external influences. Who has been there? Others have tread such a path through themselves - not through you. And most of those were very different people than you. Why should their path lead to your answers? If you look at statistics they don't!

 

Krishnamurti said "truth is a pathless land" and this is one reason why.

Even those adhering to a particular tradition or dogma must eventually get out of the canoe and do the work without anyone holding their hand. We all want security. We want to believe that someone or some discipline or dogma has a reliable answer.

That we are not wasting all these years of study and practice. We want reassurance. We want the safe bet.

It doesn't exist.

 

 

 

Becouse the world is overmasculinasied(I made up a word again)and out of balance. Most of us have learned(almost took for granted as the most important way of learning) to get inspired primarily by words and pointers .

Forgetting feminine way of reading the nature, her patterns ,feeling interconnected with life,paying attention and deep listening which is a very different way of learning.

The word itself is masculine.It defines and points.It aids linear thinking which is again masculine by nature.These things are taken for granted and a norm and are so deeply ingraved that it is almost impossible to to see , feel and enjoy things any other way.

That is why.

(When I mention masculine it has no gender .)

Exactly why I emphasized gender.

It's so true and we are so conditioned and indoctrinated by our authorities that they are terribly pervasive and subtle.

We have lost our way back to ourselves and our mother.

It's sad.

 

Since I've been hugely caught in this precise phenomenon myself, I feel I am very well positioned to give an honest reply to this.

 

Why the old guys?

 

Well, I want whatever is authentic. I think that if some ideas have survived the test of time, they are more likely to be authentic. Hence my obsession with the ancient wisdom.

 

The more ancient, the better. Right? Well, not exactly. After all, while I greatly enjoy the early pagan and shamanic spirituality, I wouldn't place them above Buddha's wisdom in terms of insight and general quality. So this is where "anything ancient is good" breaks down. Once we start down the rabbit hole of questioning teachings, there is no end. By this time I question everything, including Buddha. That's why I reject many features of Buddhist thinking today, even though for the longest time it was my favorite school of thought (and in some ways, still is).

 

Needless to say, I no longer believe that whatever is ancient is authentic and whatever is modern is fake. But I've been caught chasing my historical tail for so long, I figured I could give you an honest answer.

Exactly right and I appreciate your honesty.

And why not the old women?

Because they have been wrenched from our spiritual psyche for so long that most of us don't even acknowledge their glaring absence.

 

I'm very happy to have living examples as inspiration of what it's like to live in what should be sought.

Of course, they give security and hope.

But role models and authorities will not help you beyond a point.

[Vajrahridaya]

Of course, they give security and hope.

But role models and authorities will not help you beyond a point.

 

The connection and security extends beyond the physical realm, into the psychic realm, and beyond. Your lineage will be there to the end, even beyond the passing on of the body.

 

 

You get to a point where your mind and their minds have no boundaries between them.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RiverSnake]

In the martial arts it is easier if you begin with the basics and master them under a teacher. When you know the basics you can expand into spontaneity.

 

This comparison also works for when following and learning from others. I think all great leaders or teachers can see the potential in people and encourage their followers to harness it and make it their own, so that one day they may also guide others.

 

It is IMO ideally a relationship much like that of father and son.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm just tired of people thinking that insight and books, wisdom and books, or experience and books are mutually exclusive, and that if you don't have a real life teacher you are wasting your time.

 

Gaining experience and insight is about YOU. You could be with the highest master in the cosmos, but if you aren't ready to get the experience and the insight necessary for advancement, you won't. And if you ARE ready for the experience and the insight, then you will get it, even if it's a book you bought off e-bay for $4.50 that promised instant enlightenment.

 

Or you could get it just living life, never hearing of enlightenment. Or you can get it watching tv. Being on a date. Having a drink. Playing a sport. Anything.

 

Gaining experience means having experiences which involve you experiencing them. And there's no telling where you will or will not find them.

 

Agreed, but also, as Old Green said above, building a solid foundation from the teachings of others can make those experiences even better.

 

Really, it's just same old yin/yang learning/experience thing.. You know yourself and then you can learn more about yourself by learning from others. Sheeeeiiit. This is a Taoism forum. We know there's no one answer to everything all the time .

[gendao]

Exactly why I emphasized gender.

We have lost our way back to ourselves and our mother.

It's sad.

 

And why not the old women?

Because they have been wrenched from our spiritual psyche for so long that most of us don't even acknowledge their glaring absence.

When you say "we," may you be projecting somewhat here? Do you perhaps feel distanced from your mother?

 

Cuz I personally have some "old/older woman" mentors/role models and everyone is free to chose whomever they want to learn from as well. This does include old women too - although they may perhaps not be as statistically popular in the mainstream.. But there is no reason why anyone has to limit themselves to the mainstream status quo in life - I sure as hell don't!!!

[Otis]

Krishnamurti said "truth is a pathless land" and this is one reason why.

Ah, that's my cue: "I don't know!"

 

Excellent post, throughout, Steve!

[doc benway]

The connection and security extends beyond the physical realm, into psychic the realm, and beyond. Your lineage will be there to the end, even beyond the passing on of the body.

I disagree completely - you have objectified your lineage. You cling to it.

It is your refuge.

There is no security.

There is no ground to stand on.

You haven't yet understood emptiness my learned friend.

 

 

 

You get to a point where your mind and their minds have no boundaries between them.

Who are you and who are they?