How to determine someone's level of enlightenment?

[strawdog65]

In certain sects of Zen they determine one's level of enlightenment by their ability to answer certain koans. The problem these days is that there are books with the answers already in them. I think more and more each day I believe that enlightenment is pointless, rather it is our ability to live each day understanding what we're doing that's important. The fact is, the only difference between those who are "enlightened" and those that aren't is that the former are aware of what they are actually doing.

 

When one understands the nature of their actions, without applying morality or ideology to those actions, but rather they can see those actions exactly for what they really are, then they are enlightened, but in the same way they are the first people to tell you that they aren't enlightened at all.

 

Aaron

 

 

Hi Aaron!

 

We share a similar view.

The complexity surrounding this whole question is unnecessary.

Complexity, intellectual disposition, intelligence, none of these things

could ever be an accurate measure of what we label "enlightenment".

 

To see the world and our actions truthfully and objectively, and to know

there is no actual morality other than what exists within the limits

of the human mind, and knowing this, there is simplicity in what is seen.

 

Looking behind the veil, and accepting what is real and true.

 

 

Peace!

[mYTHmAKER]

In certain sects of Zen they determine one's level of enlightenment by their ability to answer certain koans. The problem these days is that there are books with the answers already in them.

Aaron

 

Yes there is/was a book 100 Zen Koans and their answers.

Reading the answers one will not know them.

However, if two disciples/people gave the same answer to a koan the master/teacher

might accept the answer from one of them and not the other. This is because there is no one correct answer

to a Koan. It is a knowing and the master can perceive if it is from a place of experience or not.

The answer is from the heart - it is experienced, not from the mind - you can't look it up and use crib notes

[goldisheavy]

Well it's not always easy to tell in writing if someone has broken through to great enlightenment (achieving the Dharmakaya.) Though face to face is more possible if the person has the ability to "look into the mind," of the individual.

 

Though I'll say that if anyone has not accomplished or is not able to answer any of these 10 questions, then you can bet they have not achieved great enlightenment. From Zen master Yen-Shou's The Source Mirror/ Tsung Chin Lu:

 

First question: When we completely see true nature as plainly as we see colors in broad daylight, are we the same as bodhisattvas like Manjushri?

 

Second question: When we can clearly understand the source in everything, as we encounter situations and face objects, as we see form and hear sound, as we raise and lower our feet, as we open and close our eyes, are we in accord with the path?

 

Third question: When we read through the teachings of Buddha for our era contained in the Buddhist canon, and the sayings of all the Zen masters since antiquity, and we hear their profundities without becoming afraid, do we always get accurate understanding and have no doubts?

 

Fourth question: When people pose difficult differentiating questions to us, and press us with all sorts of probing inquiries, are we able to respond with the four forms of eloquence*, and resolve all their doubts?

 

Fifth question: Does your wisdom shine unhindered at all times in all places, with perfect penetration from moment to moment, not encountering any phenomenon that can obstruct it, and never being interrupted for even an instant?

 

Sixth question: When all kinds of adverse and favorable and good and evil realms appear before us, are we unobstructed by them, and can we see through them all?

 

Seventh question: In all the mental states in Treatise on the Gate for Illuminating the Hundred Phenomena, can we see for each and every one of them, their fine details, the essential nature, and their fundamental source and point of origin, and not be confused by birth and death and the sense faculties and sense organs?

 

Eighth question: Can we discern reality in the midst of all forms of conduct and activity, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, whether receiving instructions or responding, whether dressing or eating?

 

Ninth question: Can we be singleminded and unmoved whether we hear there is a Buddha or we hear there is no Buddha, whether we hear there are sentient beings or we hear there are no sentient beings, whether we are praised or slandered or affirmed or denied?

 

Tenth question: Can we clearly comprehend all the differentiating knowledge we hear, and comprehend both true nature and apparent form, inner truth and phenomena, without hindrance, and discern the source of all phenomena, even including the appearance of the thousand sages in the world, without any doubts?

 

No Bodhisattva left behind!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"What is it? this gate by which

all Buddhas came into this world?"

 

my answer (today):

It wasn't Enkakuji

But at the same time it was.

the empty passageway.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

However, if two disciples/people gave the same answer to a koan the master/teacher

might accept the answer from one of them and not the other. This is because there is no one correct answer

to a Koan. It is a knowing and the master can perceive if it is from a place of experience or not.

The answer is from the heart - it is experienced, not from the mind - you can't look it up and use crib notes

 

Sorry if I stole your answer

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[mYTHmAKER]

No, answering a freakin koan does not determine if an individual is "enlightened." There is much more to this than what you people are bantering on about on this forum.

 

"You people" expresses separateness.

An example of an appropriate koan in this case would be "What is the sound of one mouth flapping?"

 

Koans are used by teachers to determine the level of understanding of a student.

They take you out of your mind.

Edited June 27, 2011 by mYTHmAKER

[Harmonious Emptiness]

No, answering a freakin koan does not determine if an individual is "enlightened." There is much more to this than what you people are bantering on about on this forum.

 

Not sure who said it determines if you are "enlightened" but it does give the receiver an opportunity to look within for an answer, during which an abbot can see if the student is at least on the right track.

 

For example, in the koan above, if you can find within yourself the gate by which Buddhas become Buddhas, you might be on the right track. Not Enlightened, but better off than someone who tries to find their answers in the Coles Notes for Arhats (and if you start looking for this book, man, forget it!)

 

edit: and of course, it doesn't matter so much what your verbal response is to the question, so long as it's spontaneous enough that the teacher can see where it's coming from. The long explanations of Koans never really mean much more than a history lesson. What I love about koans is that my answers have pretty much no correlation to the long explanations, but they still make me see something ungraspable which is true for me, though maybe not anything resembling other's explanations. This might even be the wrong approach for all I know, but it works for me so I'm cool with my helpful misinterpretations

Edited June 27, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[deci belle]

Mind has no context. The mind that judges is a thief. Thusness neither exists nor has no nonexistence. Entertaining idle thoughts such as these, even in earnest, are a waste of time. Better to turn the light around on one's own condition and rest there for an eternity than to be concerned with another's jewel like a pauper who doesn't know the jewel of one's own.

 

As for those who appear to parrot the ancients in order to appear knowledgeable— Again, it is none of your concern. I know how you have been with me. All you are doing is comparing yourself to others, whether you know it or not. Stop this soon. Desire to compare yourself with others or any thought of your own ability is egoism and possessiveness. Why?

 

Enlightenment is not a person. There is no person who has ever been enlightened. The experience is by virtue of non-origination. When you revert to nonexistence, Enlightenment is already there. In fact, it has never moved. Enlightenment is not an admixture ordinary and holy; not either nor neither. There is no such thing. So there is no comparing, compared or comparability. Enlightenment is right here and now. As such, if you are comparing, you are eons away from enlightenment. Again, spraying about such determinations are the antithesis of enlightened activity in the world. Please strive to stop this.

 

Possessiveness is involvement in whether or not others, which includes you, are "enlightened". Enlightenment is only an indication of the natural affinity we already have. No one is not enlightened. Who knows that? Not a person. That's how you know.

 

Enlightenment is entry-level experience. It's not the end— it's the beginning of the path. You have to get over enlightenment before you can enter the path the ancients have tread. Don't even be concerned about your own enlightenment, much less others'.

 

Refine the self and await the time. See essence on your own, then seek a teacher. Gold isn't heavy if you don't see it. I see fool's gold.

 

Those that know it don't parrot— they own it.

 

(ed: one letter typo)

Edited June 27, 2011 by deci belle

[strawdog65]

[Otis]

[deci belle]

[thuscomeone]

Let me put it simply

 

There is only change in this life, and with our minds we create the illusion of solidity/continuity. In truth, there is no continuity except in one's own mind. Thus all concepts ultimately don't apply to reality -- whether they be concepts of existence, non existence, emptiness, buddha-nature, god, rigpa, space, tao, eternity, nothingness, dependent arising, buddha-mind -- because they all suppose a self, a permanence, continuity.

 

There is just "this" -- which can only be felt, never described. These concepts/thoughts themselves, as they manifest, can never be described either.

 

Put it all down.

 

Someone's level of enlightenment doesn't matter. What matters is whether you are happy or not, whether you are free from fear, anxiety, stress. The diseases of the mind.

 

It all comes down to acceptance. If you can accept this moment, right now, completely -- without making an effort to accept it -- then there is no fear.

 

 

Can you do it?

Edited June 28, 2011 by thuscomeone

[C T]

 

It all comes down to acceptance. If you can accept this moment, right now, completely -- without making an effort to accept it -- then there is no fear.

 

 

Can you do it?

It'd be a lot easier if you had included the practice method for effortlessly reaching effortless acceptance?

Edited June 28, 2011 by CowTao

[thuscomeone]

It'd be a lot easier if you had included the practice method for effortlessly reaching effortless acceptance?

That's exactly the problem. You want to practice so that you can achieve a certain state, a permanent state where you'll be free from harm. That's what everyone wants -- permanence.

 

One creates that ideal, permanent state and then clings to it and fears losing it against the relentless tides of change. But those tides inevitably come and one is disturbed, fearful, and anxious again.

 

The moment you think about trying to reach that state of "effortless acceptance", you create the state that you want to reach. Then there is a comparison between what you are now and what you want to be -- that future state. In that gap between what you are now and what you want to be is the suffering of all mankind, as a certain sage once said. In that gap is all fear, anxiety, stress and worry.

 

But if you can just be, without trying to get anywhere, just note whatever is happening at the moment -- even if it be a thought of trying to get somewhere -- and not try to transform it, then there is finally peace.

Edited June 28, 2011 by thuscomeone

[C T]

That's exactly the problem. You want to practice so that you can achieve a certain state, a permanent state where you'll be free from harm. That's what everyone wants -- permanence.

 

One creates that ideal, permanent state and then clings to it and fears losing it against the relentless tides of change. But those tides inevitably come and one is disturbed, fearful, and anxious again.

 

The moment you think about trying to reach that state of "effortless acceptance", you create the state that you want to reach. Then there is a comparison between what you are now and what you want to be -- that future state. In that gap between what you are now and what you want to be is the suffering of all mankind, as a certain sage once said. In that gap is all fear, anxiety, stress and worry.

 

But if you can just be, without trying to get anywhere, just note whatever is happening at the moment -- even if it be a thought of trying to get somewhere -- and not try to transform it, then there is finally peace.

Yes. Well put, Thuscomeone. Thank you!

[Stigweard]

That's exactly the problem. You want to practice so that you can achieve a certain state, a permanent state where you'll be free from harm. That's what everyone wants -- permanence.

 

One creates that ideal, permanent state and then clings to it and fears losing it against the relentless tides of change. But those tides inevitably come and one is disturbed, fearful, and anxious again.

 

The moment you think about trying to reach that state of "effortless acceptance", you create the state that you want to reach. Then there is a comparison between what you are now and what you want to be -- that future state. In that gap between what you are now and what you want to be is the suffering of all mankind, as a certain sage once said. In that gap is all fear, anxiety, stress and worry.

 

But if you can just be, without trying to get anywhere, just note whatever is happening at the moment -- even if it be a thought of trying to get somewhere -- and not try to transform it, then there is finally peace.

This is sublime and perfect, totally reflecting part of my current journey.

 

Thank you _/\_

[zerostao]

Let me put it simply

There is just "this" -- which can only be felt, never described. These concepts/thoughts themselves, as they manifest, can never be described either.

 

Put it all down.

 

Someone's level of enlightenment doesn't matter. What matters is whether you are happy or not, whether you are free from fear, anxiety, stress. The diseases of the mind.

 

It all comes down to acceptance. If you can accept this moment, right now, completely -- without making an effort to accept it -- then there is no fear.

 

 

Can you do it?

 

i like this, always have, that is why i choose to live the way i do.

[wearydreamer]

There are no levels. There is no enlightenment. As is any word stated in this reply. Refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(mathematics)

Edited June 28, 2011 by wearydreamer

[stan herman]

Well, so when you get right down to it, all you can say is 'om'.

 

But then what would we have to talk about?

 

So, after you get to know your ego well enough to make him behave, enjoy his company.

[doc benway]

Yeah man, I like thuscomone's words!

 

And stan's

 

I've been practicing awareness and acceptance for several years now and it has changed my life.

 

I'm just gonna play with my new cuica for a while...

 

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack