How to determine someone's level of enlightenment?

[Aaron]

You gotta recognize real, man. Yeah we can all talk of "There's nothing to achieve, no "one" that is being enlightened," but this doesn't help anyone. Even worse this can lead people to thinking that they don't have to cultivate period. Like what some New Agers advocate, which just goes along with life and death. It's ironic, but we have to actually cultivate to really understand that there isn't anything to gain.

 

Hello Jack,

 

I think therein lies the biggest deception of all, the idea that we do have to cultivate, when we don't. We can choose to, but there is no requirement in this lifetime. I think when one takes cultivation too seriously then they begin to see it as the end all meets all, rather than what it actually is, meaningless. When you realize it is meaningless, then it begins to become a tool, rather than a projection of one's desires.

 

The idea that there is meaning to anything really is just a construct of the mind. NOTHING needs to be done, except eat, sleep, and crap.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

In that gap between what you are now and what you want to be is the suffering of all mankind, as a certain sage once said. In that gap is all fear, anxiety, stress and worry.

 

But if you can just be, without trying to get anywhere, just note whatever is happening at the moment -- even if it be a thought of trying to get somewhere -- and not try to transform it, then there is finally peace.

 

Hello Thus,

 

I was taught a long time ago that one's expectations are the greatest source of their misery. Give up your expectations and you can be rid of much of your pain, but being rid of expectations does not rid one of all pain, rather one must also understand their own actions and how those actions cause them to suffer. When you can do this then you can begin to live a life of acceptance.

 

Aaron

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[thuscomeone]

Hello Thus,

 

I was taught a long time ago that one's expectations are the greatest source of their misery. Give up your expectations and you can be rid of much of your pain, but being rid of expectations does not rid one of all pain, rather one must also understand their own actions and how those actions cause them to suffer. When you can do this then you can begin to live a life of acceptance.

 

Aaron

 

But see, you're talking about changing your actions in order to achieve a certain state of acceptance. Again, through thought, you have created a state to seek after and to attempt to rest permanently in. And again you will suffer because that state you crave will inevitably be upset by change.

 

It's the same problem again and again with everyone who suffers. It can all be traced back to the same thing.

 

I'm not saying that actions aren't important. But, as I see it, starting with changing actions is not the correct way to end suffering. One has to start with the mind, with thoughts. It is thought itself that creates suffering. Thought is the root of it all.

 

When the mind is changed, good, virtuous and proper actions will follow.

[thuscomeone]

Deci Belle, Thuscomeone; Nice words.

 

But what I'm gettin at when I talk about "criteria" is this: We can all talk about "Emptiness of this, emptiness of that;" but what about when we're not "meditating on emptiness" or not in a blissful jhana state, what then? It all comes down to how we deal with the world of appearances, when we get off the cushion.

 

I'm talking about the ability of an individual to carry out a function to the utmost. Someone who can really say that they are "enlightened" should have mastered the following: All the nine samadhi's (going in and out of any of them at will,) along with the gong-fu resulting from meditative accomplishments and the 10 paramitas (Perfection of: Giving, discipline, patient endurance, diligence, concentration, wisdom, skillful means, vows, spiritual power, knowledge.)

 

Also "By virtue of his knowledge of Buddhist doctrine, his insight onto true reality, his compassion and concern for all sentient beings, and his special mind power, he is destined to help others through relieving their miseries, guiding them in their spiritual endeavor, and even healing those afflicted with disease."

 

I'm talking about the ability to help sentient beings not only on this plane of existence, but in all the six realms of cyclic existence and not just in this universe...

 

I'm not even talking about Buddhahood here. Check this out: The tenth bhūmi, the Cloud of Doctrine

 

On the tenth bhūmi, bodhisattvas overcome the subtlest traces of the afflictions. Like a cloud that pours rain on the earth, these bodhisattvas spread the doctrine in all directions, and each sentient being absorbs what it needs in order to grow spiritually. From this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_%28Buddhism%29

 

I don't know about you guys, but to be able to do or accomplish this doesn't seem like a fairy tale or make believe to me. The three enlightenment bodies of the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya are inherent in all sentient beings; just they haven't been fully cultivated or actualized.

 

 

You don't need to master anything. You don't need to achieve anything. Samadhi's, gong-fu, paramitas -- they all mean absolutely nothing if you can see the real root of suffering.

 

The nature of your mind, which is creation of permanence, doesn't sync with the nature of nature, which is impermanence. That's the root.

 

To steer this back to a discussion about enlightenment...

 

That's what I believe enlightenment is -- knowing the cause of suffering and abandoning it.

 

"Just live that life. It doesn't matter whether it is life or hell, life of the hungry ghost, life of the animal, it's okay; just live that life, see. And as a matter of fact no other way. Where you stand, where you are, that's what your life is right there, regardless of how painful it is or how enjoyable it is. That's what it is."

- Taizan Maezumi

Edited June 29, 2011 by thuscomeone

[thuscomeone]

Sorry, quoted my own post...

Edited June 29, 2011 by thuscomeone

[C T]

But see, you're talking about changing your actions in order to achieve a certain state of acceptance. Again, through thought, you have created a state to seek after and to attempt to rest permanently in. And again you will suffer because that state you crave will inevitably be upset by change.

 

It's the same problem again and again with everyone who suffers. It can all be traced back to the same thing.

 

I'm not saying that actions aren't important. But, as I see it, starting with changing actions is not the correct way to end suffering. One has to start with the mind, with thoughts. It is thought itself that creates suffering. Thought is the root of it all.

 

When the mind is changed, good, virtuous and proper actions will follow.

This is good...

 

It is said at the subtlest level its about recognizing mind essence, then training the mind to rest in the recognition.

When mind is at perfect stillness, actions are performed spontaneously - there is a 'doer' but the thought 'I am doing' no longer takes up a cause - even so, effects are experienced, but again, since 'I am doing' is already dropped, it cannot follow that there is an 'I' to carry these effects as seeds for the next set of causes. Dropping the 'I', only mind essence as awareness remain - when only awareness remain, then existence completes itself. Full circle... returns to seeing mountains as mountains, yet seer and seen both illuminates the seeing of the mountain, in the seeing itself. Same principle applies to all other actions - taster and taste becomes illuminated in the tasting, hearer and heard becomes illuminated in the hearing, etc. This is the basis of the stabilizing of non-thought giving rise to non-action, yet nothing is left un-illuminated.

 

If one were to think that there is nothing to do, no need for practice, then nothing can be realized. Without realization, where is the hope of illumination? Without illumination, what is the difference between a zombie and a human being?

 

Of course practice is very important... to think otherwise is self-deception and folly. Practice, no practitioner. Only this. Why? Because if the doer is not dropped, there will come a point of supreme realization so refined, so direct, so sublime, so narrow that our gross sense of self will never be able to go through. One has to drop everything on arriving at the gateless gate. Even though its the widest gate, no person can pass... think about it.

Edited June 29, 2011 by CowTao

[thuscomeone]

This is good...

 

It is said at the subtlest level its about recognizing mind essence, then training the mind to rest in the recognition.

When mind is at perfect stillness, actions are performed spontaneously - there is a 'doer' but the thought 'I am doing' no longer takes up a cause - even so, effects are experienced, but again, since 'I am doing' is already dropped, it cannot follow that there is an 'I' to carry these effects as seeds for the next set of causes. Dropping the 'I', only mind essence as awareness remain - when only awareness remain, then existence completes itself. Full circle... returns to seeing mountains as mountains, yet seer and seen both illuminates the seeing of the mountain, in the seeing itself. Same principle applies to all other actions - taster and taste becomes illuminated in the tasting, hearer and heard becomes illuminated in the hearing, etc. This is the basis of the stabilizing of non-thought giving rise to non-action, yet nothing is left un-illuminated.

 

If one were to think that there is nothing to do, no need for practice, then nothing can be realized. Without realization, where is the hope of illumination? Without illumination, what is the difference between a zombie and a human being?

 

Of course practice is very important... to think otherwise is self-deception and folly. Practice, no practitioner. Only this. Why? Because if the doer is not dropped, there will come a point of supreme realization so refined, so direct, so sublime, so narrow that our gross sense of self will never be able to go through. One has to drop everything on arriving at the gateless gate. Even though its the widest gate, no person can pass... think about it.

 

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do anything. The house is on fire and we have to move, move, move and get the hell out! We just have to be very very careful of what we do and what we think. I would prefer to think that we have to understand in order to get out of the house, rather than do. There must be a radical shift in consciousness that comes not from action, but from understanding.

 

No offense, but I think what you've written is still too many words -- too many concepts whirling around in the brain. It can be condensed much more. The solution is much simpler, but much more subtle.

Edited June 29, 2011 by thuscomeone

[C T]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do anything. The house is on fire and we have to move, move, move and get the hell out! We just have to be very very careful of what we do and what we think. I would prefer to think that we have to understand in order to get out of the house, rather than do. There must be a radical shift in consciousness that comes not from action, but from understanding.

 

No offense, but I think what you've written is still too many words -- too many concepts whirling around in the brain. It can be condensed much more. The solution is much simpler, but much more subtle.

Actually not... when i am not here, i do not even bother about whats gross and whats subtle. Just indulge when its time to do so, like now, that's all.

 

If i let you into my mind, you would have nothing to hold on to, and simply free-fall.

[thuscomeone]

Actually not... when i am not here, i do not even bother about whats gross and whats subtle. Just indulge when its time to do so, like now, that's all.

 

If i let you into my mind, you would have nothing to hold on to, and simply free-fall.

Bodhidharma would like to know where this thing you call "mind" is...

Edited June 29, 2011 by thuscomeone

[C T]

Bodhidharma would like to know where this thing you call "mind" is...

Precisely! If there is such a thing as an ultimately graspable mind therein lies permanence!

[goldisheavy]

Bodhidharma would like to know where this thing you call "mind" is...

 

From the Bloodstream Sermon:

 

Student: But if they don't define it, what do they mean by mind?

 

Bodhidharma: You ask. That's your mind. I answer. That's my mind. If I had no mind how could I answer? If you had no mind, how could you ask? That which asks is your mind. Through endless kalpas without beginning, whatever you do, wherever you are, that's your real mind, that's your real buddha. "This mind is the buddha" says the same thing. Beyond this mind you'll never find another Buddha. To search for enlightenment or nirvana beyond this mind is impossible. The reality of your own self-nature the absence of cause and effect, is what's meant by mind. Your mind is nirvana. You might think you can find a Buddha or enlightenment somewhere beyond the mind', but such a place doesn't exist.

Edited June 29, 2011 by goldisheavy

[thuscomeone]

From the Bloodstream Sermon:

Well I was quoting from when Bodhidharma told the second patriarch to bring him his mind so he could pacify it and the second patriarch said that he couldn't find his mind...

 

Anyway, these are nice words, but I'm not so concerned with them. Yes, relatively you can say that you have something called a mind. And in fact you can't avoid saying that, because it's our nature to do so. But ultimately all you have are disjoint, temporary moments. No continuity that can be made into a mind. "Mind" is just another concept that creates the illusion of permanence in the midst of impermanence. If you do ultimately have a mind, please show me it.

 

Also, keep in mind here that he isn't talking about mind as in consciousness or the brain, as in the way we use it. He uses it to mean "the reality of your own self nature." Actually, I would say that "mind" as he uses it translates more to "experience" than to "consciousness."

 

Ah, here's the story/koan that it's from:

 

Hui-ke

 

A Chinese scholar-monk famed for his mastery of Buddhist and Taoist scriptures. According to legend, when Bodhidharma agreed to accept him as a student, Hui-ke cried, “My mind is not at rest!” Whereupon Bodhidharma said, “Bring me your mind and I will set it at rest for you.” Hui-ke explained that this was just the problem—search as he might for his mind, he could not find it. “There!” proclaimed Bodhidharma, “I have set your mind at rest.”

Edited June 29, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Vajrahridaya]

Enlightenment sure isn't going to happen through reading fortune cookie platitudes even though they can be pretty cool to read from time to time. Enlightenment is merely making ones personal unconscious absolutely conscious. There is no way to assess someone else's level of enlightenment without doing that for oneself first.

[C T]

Enlightenment is merely making ones personal unconscious absolutely conscious. There is no way to assess someone else's level of enlightenment without doing that for oneself first.

Aha! The psychology of enlightenment!

 

For 4,275 US dollars one can enroll in Chopra's SynchoDestiny Empowerment Workshop and learn how to unlock one's unconscious! There are alternatives, of course... monetarily, from little to practically no cost, depending on one's sincere aspirations.

[goldisheavy]

Anyway, these are nice words, but I'm not so concerned with them. Yes, relatively you can say that you have something called a mind. blah blah blah

...

Also, keep in mind here that blah blah blah blah blah

 

Keep in what?

[Vajrahridaya]

Aha! The psychology of enlightenment!

 

For 4,275 US dollars one can enroll in Chopra's SynchoDestiny Empowerment Workshop and learn how to unlock one's unconscious! There are alternatives, of course... monetarily, from little to practically no cost, depending on one's sincere aspirations.

 

Wow!

 

Can I go on a payment plan for the workshop that will make me the most enlightened!!?

[Aaron]

But see, you're talking about changing your actions in order to achieve a certain state of acceptance. Again, through thought, you have created a state to seek after and to attempt to rest permanently in. And again you will suffer because that state you crave will inevitably be upset by change.

 

It's the same problem again and again with everyone who suffers. It can all be traced back to the same thing.

 

I'm not saying that actions aren't important. But, as I see it, starting with changing actions is not the correct way to end suffering. One has to start with the mind, with thoughts. It is thought itself that creates suffering. Thought is the root of it all.

 

When the mind is changed, good, virtuous and proper actions will follow.

 

Hello Thus,

 

I think you misunderstood, what I'm saying is that so long as you have expectations then you are creating the state you're talking about. When you cease having expectations you no longer have to worry about this and can begin to lose attachments and accept things for what they are.

 

In regards to "with the mind", I'll poke you with a needle and you tell me if it's all in your mind. In a sense the mind is the receptor, but the action is very real, that's why I say it's more than just being mindful, but also being aware of what's happening. Also there is no such things as good, virtuous, and proper action, it's all something religions and society made up to keep people doing what they wanted. That's the first illusion you have to see through to find true acceptance and peace in your life.

 

Aaron

Edited June 29, 2011 by Twinner

[mYTHmAKER]

It doesn't matter what you do.

What matters is that you're not doing when you do it.

[thuscomeone]

Keep in what?

"Keep in mind", you know, it's a phrase we use to communicate. You're caught up in looking at reality as continuous and linked, rather than as disjoint moments.

Edited June 29, 2011 by thuscomeone

[thuscomeone]

Hello Thus,

 

I think you misunderstood, what I'm saying is that so long as you have expectations then you are creating the state you're talking about. When you cease having expectations you no longer have to worry about this and can begin to lose attachments and accept things for what they are.

 

In regards to "with the mind", I'll poke you with a needle and you tell me if it's all in your mind. In a sense the mind is the receptor, but the action is very real, that's why I say it's more than just being mindful, but also being aware of what's happening. Also there is no such things as good, virtuous, and proper action, it's all something religions and society made up to keep people doing what they wanted. That's the first illusion you have to see through to find true acceptance and peace in your life.

 

Aaron

Hmmm, well what's the difference between mindfulness and awareness in your opinion?

 

Eh, I wouldn't say there's no such thing as good and bad actions, right and wrong. Things may be empty, but that doesn't negate compassion.

[Otis]

Hmmm, well what's the difference between mindfulness and awareness in your opinion?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

To me, "mindful" means to allow the mind to be a conduit for awareness. The conscious mind stops being something which figures out, compares, categorizes, chooses, etc., but is merely the path through which awareness travels.

[Aaron]

Hmmm, well what's the difference between mindfulness and awareness in your opinion?

 

Eh, I wouldn't say there's no such thing as good and bad actions, right and wrong. Things may be empty, but that doesn't negate compassion.

 

 

Hello Thus,

 

For me the difference between mindfulness and awareness, is that mindfulness is the process of paying attention, but awareness is the process of being aware, which are two different things. You can pay attention and not be aware, in fact most people tend to be mindful, but lack awareness. I think that many people confuse the two because they are linked at times, for instance if you are mindful you have a greater chance of being aware of what's going actually going on, the interconnected nature of actions, rather than just what's happening.

 

In regards to good and bad, what I am saying is that good and bad are relative, compassion, in most cases isn't. Feeding the hungry is compassionate, but if you feed a mass murderer it would be considered bad. I'm not sure if that's a good example, but I think you get the drift.

 

For me I take a look at the result of the action, rather than the moral attachments to those actions. When you can do this, then you can truly be a beneficial part of society, because your actions are no longer based on an artificial system of mores, but rather the present state of the world around you.

 

Aaron

Edited June 29, 2011 by Twinner

[goldisheavy]

"Keep in mind", you know, it's a phrase we use to communicate. You're caught up in looking at reality as continuous and linked, rather than as disjoint moments.

 

That's because reality is indeed continuous and not disjointed.