How to determine someone's level of enlightenment?

[goldisheavy]

[xabir2005]

I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning.

 

I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment. I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'.

 

I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view. The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'.

 

The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated.

 

The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self.

 

What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of view causes all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views.

 

Related stuff:

 

A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti)

 

....

 

The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist".

 

~ Loppon Namdrol

 

And

 

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/07/conversations-breakthrough.html#more

Edited July 11, 2011 by xabir2005

[thuscomeone]

I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning.

 

I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment. I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'.

 

I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view. The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'.

 

The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated.

 

The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self.

 

What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of view causes all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views.

 

Related stuff:

 

A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti)

 

....

 

The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist".

 

~ Loppon Namdrol

 

And

 

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/07/conversations-breakthrough.html#more

Right. I definitely think that there is right view, as the eightfold path is completely based around it. But our knowledge, while being correct, is only one part of the vast manifestations of the potential of emptiness. As I was trying to communicate to you before, our views and the knowledge we have accumulated along the way eventually become another separate permanent self that we cling to. In fact, this seems to be the final subtle self that we have to see through and let go of...

 

Up until about last week, I had been stuck for about two years on "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" --trying to break through to something. Then I saw this oh so subtle grasping and finally just let go.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[xabir2005]

Right. I definitely think that there is right view, as the eightfold path is completely based around it. But our knowledge, while being correct, is only one part of the vast manifestations of the potential of emptiness. As I was trying to communicate to you before, our views and the knowledge we have accumulated along the way eventually become another separate permanent self that we cling to. In fact, this seems to be the final subtle self that we have to see through and let go of...

 

Up until about last week, I had been stuck for about two years on "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" --trying to break through to something. Then I saw this oh so subtle grasping and finally just let go.

Actually there isn't a right view. If there is a right view, you are clinging to a 'there is' and falling into the same trap. All attachments come down to a basic 'there is' or 'is not'. The right view is simply a total eradication of views without remainder. The right view is no view. One is free from extremes of 'there is' or 'is not' and thereby all confusions, clinging, seeking and suffering.

[thuscomeone]

Actually there isn't a right view. If there is a right view, you are clinging to a 'there is' and falling into the same trap. All attachments come down to a basic 'there is' or 'is not'. The right view is simply a total eradication of views without remainder. The right view is no view. One is free from extremes of 'there is' or 'is not' and thereby all confusions, clinging, seeking and suffering.

The only problem if that is true is what is the point of the path? What is liberation ? How are you then different from an ordinary samsarin?

 

Remember, dependent origination itself (in other words YOU at this very moment) is neither existent or non existent and not both or neither. Dependent origination is what they mean by freedom from views. It is the viewless view.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[C T]

The only problem if that is true is what is the point of the path? What is liberation ? How are you then different from an ordinary samsarin?

The funny thing is only samsarins sense the difference. Upon awakening, where is the difference between an arhat and a samsarin? Who sees this difference?

[xabir2005]

The only problem if that is true is what is the point of the path? What is liberation ? How are you then different from an ordinary samsarin?

 

Remember, dependent origination itself (in other words YOU at this very moment) is neither existent or non existent and not both or neither. Dependent origination is freedom from views. It is a viewless. view

The ignorant clings ignorantly to 'there is' or 'is not', lost in clinging and suffering.

 

The practitioner establishes 'right view' which is still a conceptual understanding of teachings, but this is a necessary step.

 

The liberated is freed from all views of 'there is' or 'is not' and realizes that the right view is simply no view.

 

Oh yes, what dependently originates is empty and therefore transcends extremes of 'is' or 'is not.

[thuscomeone]

The funny thing is only samsarins sense the difference. Upon awakening, where is the difference between an arhat and a samsarin? Who sees this difference?

Well there is and there isn't a difference. Afterwards, it's very ordinary. Yes. But that does not make it the same. If this were so, why would the Buddha lay out the path and not just say "you're ok as you are?"

 

"The true man without rank" sees it.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[thuscomeone]

The ignorant clings ignorantly to 'there is' or 'is not', lost in clinging and suffering.

 

The practitioner establishes 'right view' which is still a conceptual understanding of teachings, but this is a necessary step.

 

The liberated is freed from all views of 'there is' or 'is not' and realizes that the right view is simply no view.

 

Oh yes, what dependently originates is empty and therefore transcends extremes of 'is' or 'is not.

I wouldn't say that the liberated is free from views. Just that he doesn't cling to them as a permanent self and is free whether there are views or no views.

[xabir2005]

The funny thing is only samsarins sense the difference. Upon awakening, where is the difference between an arhat and a samsarin? Who sees this difference?

Differences are relative... Ultimately everything is dream-like and empty, including nirvana. Nothing whatsoever is attained.

 

The Diamond Sutra says arhat is no arhat therefore arhats are called arhats. Same cld be said about view, view is no view therefore its called view.

 

Today I entered a cool state (actually it is becoming increasingly common) where I lucidly projected myself into a semi dream-state where everything I think becomes a visual (even auditory) reality and I could walk through walls etc fearlessly as I knew it is my projection. Everything I think becomes 'real'. From this it is seen that dreams are no different from waking life really. Indeed everything is just like a dream! I still can't walk through walls in waking life tho but maybe when my realization deepens I hope I wld lol

[C T]

Well there is and there isn't a difference. Afterwards, it's very ordinary. Yes. But that does not make it the same. If this were so, why would the Buddha lay out the path and not just say "you're ok as you are?"

 

"The true man without rank" sees it.

Yes.

 

I think in essence the Buddha did say all is okay. Problem is hardly anyone could see that. Hence the Dharma was expounded. For those 'whose eyes were thick with dust'.

[C T]

 

Today I entered a cool state (actually it is becoming increasingly common) where I lucidly projected myself into a semi dream-state where everything I think becomes a visual (even auditory) reality and I could walk through walls etc fearlessly as I knew it is my projection. Everything I think becomes 'real'. From this it is seen that dreams are no different from waking life really. Indeed everything is just like a dream! I still can't walk through walls in waking life tho but maybe when my realization deepens I hope I wld lol

Hey that's coool!

 

Its nice to remain in clear light free of obstructive compounds!

[thuscomeone]

Yes.

 

I think in essence the Buddha did say all is okay. Problem is hardly anyone could see that. Hence the Dharma was expounded. For those 'whose eyes were thick with dust'.

Oh of course.

 

The most freeing realization one can have is that it is all ok, it has always been ok, and it will always be ok. Right view, in the end, is simply tada -- "as it isness." But, like you say, it takes a while to wipe the dust from one's eyes.

[xabir2005]

I wouldn't say that the liberated is free from views. Just that he doesn't cling to them as a permanent self and is free whether there are views or no views.

only the fundamental view of 'there is' and 'is not' is eradicated.

 

Making view substantial is part of it.

[thuscomeone]

only the fundamental view of 'there is' and 'is not' is eradicated.

 

Making view substantial is part of it.

Well, here's my take on view and what I've seen over the past week.

 

Start with dependent arising. Dependent arising is emptiness. Dependent arising is not existent and not non existent. Not being existent equates to infinite potential for manifestation. Now, we ARE dependent arising -- we and everything around us (views and no views) are this potential manifesting as dependent arising.

 

It is not views themselves that are the problem. I actually don't think it is possible not to have a view. It is when we take a view and attempt to rest in it as against impermanent reality. That is again clinging to a self. It is us once again trying to manipulate our experience. But when we realize that we are just this spontaneous potential -- both view and no view are just right where they are, when they manifest. They are just what they are supposed to be at that moment.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[thuscomeone]

...

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[xabir2005]

Well, here's my take on view and what I've seen over the past week.

 

Start with dependent arising. Dependent arising is emptiness. Dependent arising is not existent and not non existent. Not being existent equates to infinite potential for manifestation. Now, we ARE dependent arising -- we and everything around us (views and no views) are this potential manifesting as dependent arising.

 

It is not views themselves that are the problem. I actually don't think it is possible not to have a view. It is when we take a view and attempt to rest in it as against impermanent reality. That is again clinging to a self. It is us once again trying to manipulate our experience. But when we realize that we are just this spontaneous potential -- both view and no view are just right where they are, when they manifest. They are just what they are supposed to be at that moment.

It is possible to eradicate the view 'there is' and 'is not'. How? Through the realization of the twofold 'non-inherency'.

 

For example before anatta one clings to a sense of an inherent awareness. One keeps referring back to an awareness that appears very real and is 'always here'. One keeps coming back to that sense... Why does this clinging keep arising?

 

Simply speak: it is the view 'there is' an awareness, as an inherent, independent and permanent reality. This view is the cause of clinging and referencing back to an awareness.

 

But it is possible to forever stop refering back to an awareness or background. It is the realization that 'seeing is just the seen' - awareness is simply all self-luminous transient manifestation. As such there is no longer clinging to the notion of 'there is' with regards to awareness. 'There is' cannot apply to awareness because awareness is an ungraspable process, it is not an entity.

 

As such, a burden is lifted, a tendency to cling is released via realization. Anatta releases the view 'there is' or 'is not' with regards to a subjective self, body, awareness, etc. Similarly the realization of the emptiness of objects further releases various clingings on things simply by seeing how 'there is' does not apply to reality. Everything is dream like and apparitional, like a magic show.

 

So you see, it is entirely possible to be free from views of 'there is' and 'is not'. In fact if you still believe that there is inherent awareness after anatta, something is very wrong. It probably means you experienced no-mind but the realization of anatta hasn't arisen.

 

When you contemplate on the implications of view, you will come to a realization of how pervasive view is, and what is the fundamental core of view (is and is not) and how every suffering and clinging is simply a manifestation of view. Thusness has been hinting at me what I missed (he told me I haven't realized what view is but did not tell me what it was as he wanted me to find out for myself)... I considered deeply before realizing what it is about.

Edited July 12, 2011 by xabir2005

[thuscomeone]

It is possible to eradicate the view 'there is' and 'is not'. How? Through the realization of inherent existence.

 

For example before anatta one clings to a sense of an inherent awareness. One keeps referring back to an awareness that appears very real and is 'always here'. One keeps coming back to that sense... Why does this clinging keep arising?

 

Simply speak: it is the view 'there is' an awareness, as an inherent, independent and permanent reality. This view is the cause of clinging and referencing back to an awareness.

 

But it is possible to forever stop refering back to an awareness or background. It is the realization that 'seeing is just the seen' - awareness is simply all self-luminous transient manifestation. As such there is no longer clinging to the notion of 'there is' with regards to awareness. 'There is' cannot apply to awareness because awareness is an ungraspable process, it is not an entity.

 

As such, a burden is lifted, a tendency to cling is released via realization. Anatta releases the view 'there is' or 'is not' with regards to a subjective self, body, awareness, etc. Similarly the realization of the emptiness of objects further releases various clingings on things simply by seeing how 'there is' does not apply to reality. Everything is dream like and apparitional, like a magic show.

 

So you see, it is entirely possible to be free from views of 'there is' and 'is not'. In fact if you still believe that there is inherent awareness after anatta, something is very wrong. It probably means you experienced no-mind but the realization of anatta hasn't arisen.

After "no-mind", one realizes that awareness and pheomena are interdependent. Nothing inherent. After that, there is just dependent arising, which, as you say, neither is or is not.

 

Looking at it from emptiness of subject, there is the illusion of seperate self created through thought. And yet there is no actual seperate self. So there you could also say that is and is not both don't apply.

 

Do you think that I believe in an inherent awareness?

 

Views of is and is not are ultimately just dependent manifestation. Just right where they are.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Lucky7Strikes]

As such, a burden is lifted, a tendency to cling is released via realization. Anatta releases the view 'there is' or 'is not' with regards to a subjective self, body, awareness, etc. Similarly the realization of the emptiness of objects further releases various clingings on things simply by seeing how 'there is' does not apply to reality. Everything is dream like and apparitional, like a magic show.

 

is, is-Not transcended as also neither, both...

 

It's not that views are gone, one no longer distinguished between "view" and "manifestation." Transcending rejection and acceptance, one abides in the creative nature of primordial awareness responding spontaneously and liberating whatever arises...a play of sentience.

[thuscomeone]

 

is, is-Not transcended as also neither, both...

 

It's not that views are gone, one no longer distinguished between "view" and "manifestation." Transcending rejection and acceptance, one abides in the creative nature of primordial awareness responding spontaneously and liberating whatever arises...a play of sentience.

Exactly!

 

We agree on something

 

Except I'd prefer to call it potential rather than awareness...

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Lucky7Strikes]

After "no-mind", one realizes that awareness and pheomena are interdependent. Nothing inherent. After that, there is just dependent arising, which, as you say, neither is or is not.

 

Looking at it from emptiness of subject, there is the illusion of seperate self created through thought. And yet there is no actual seperate self. So there you could also say that is and is not both don't apply.

 

Do you think that I believe in an inherent awareness?

 

Views of is and is not are ultimately just dependent manifestation. Just right where they are.

Ultimately there is no "object" phenomena, they arise due to one's karmic tendencies and conditioning...so I don't think it's right to say awareness and phenomena are interdependent. Rather there is just this, as Xabir put it, this process of awareness manifestating.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[thuscomeone]

Ultimately there is no "object" phenomena, they arise due to one's karmic tendencies and conditioning.

I don't know if I'd go that far. That sounds too much like solipsism , "the world is my creation", when it actually seems to be much more complex than that.

 

Mind and matter are clearly interdependent. They appear different, but actually can't be seperated.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[xabir2005]

After "no-mind", one realizes that awareness and pheomena are interdependent. Nothing inherent. After that, there is just dependent arising, which, as you say, neither is or is not.

 

Looking at it from emptiness of subject, there is the illusion of seperate self created through thought. And yet there is no actual seperate self. So there you could also say that is and is not both don't apply.

 

Do you think that I believe in an inherent awareness?

 

Views of is and is not are ultimately just dependent manifestation. Just right where they are.

I am simply pointing out that one should understand how view, experience and realization are interconnected... Previously the dream-like realization arose but it didn't occur to me its implications on view. So I missed the essence and purpose of prajna wisdom, how it leads to liberation...

[thuscomeone]

I am simply pointing out that one should understand how view, experience and realization are interconnected... Previously the dream-like realization arose but it didn't occur to me its implications on view. So I missed the essence and purpose of prajna wisdom, how it leads to liberation...

Yes.

It is much subtler than we think. It's amazing to see how interconnected all insights are in the end.

Edited July 12, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Lucky7Strikes]

I don't know if I'd go that far. That sounds too much like solipsism , "the world is my creation", when it actually seems to be much more complex than that.

 

Mind and matter are clearly interdependent. They appear different, but actually can't be seperated.

Interdependent mindstreams co create this world. Ask Vaj more about that.

 

The world is not "MY" creation, but just that: creation. Awareness does not arise from phenomena nor is it dependent. It is just the essence of all arising experience. So yes, I guess it is kind of similar to solipsism in that everything known happens only within consciousness.

 

I think you are relying too heavily on the notion of interdependencies. Interdependency also means that there is no A or B to be found if the two are interdependent. In the Madyamika the principles of inherent cause and conditions are rejected on this basis also, (which can be a bit confusing for Therevadans who hold to the 12 links as an inherent process)

 

Hence they are truly empty not only in the philosophical sense but ultimately as well.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes