is there something unreal in the "empty force technique"..!

[the truth]

why always the "empty force technique" doesn't work in the reality and with people don't beleive in chi.......

it's work in the demo or in the show with the students but the reality ..........i think noooo......

here is some videos.....show what i am talking about

 

 

why it always works with the students and doesn't work in the reality and especially with non believers in chi.....

 

does those videos show us The true face of this technique........OR WHAT....!!!!??????

beside..... master erle montaigue (a high level and a well know master in the internal martial art)

said that:

We teach the internal arts as they were originally intended.

 

As a deadly self-defence art with amazing healing properties, building and balancing internal Qi. Teaching you natural body movement, flowing and explosive, to gain power in real situations.

 

Trying to educate people away from the mystical garbage such as no touch knock outs, and controlling people with your Qi! This can not be done! Anyone who tells you they can are out right lying to make money and fame. If anyone knows of someone who says this, tell them to give me a call, I'd be happy to prove them wrong!

Taken from http://www.taiji-bagua.co.uk/

i hope to find the right answer from you .......

Edited June 29, 2011 by the truth

[templetao]

1. I love those videos

 

and

 

2. Thats not the real attainment of kong jing. The real attainment can take ten years or more of hard constant work.

[the truth]

1. I love those videos

 

and

 

2. Thats not the real attainment of kong jing. The real attainment can take ten years or more of hard constant work.

I'm really confused about the reality of this technique......

Edited June 22, 2011 by the truth

[Sloppy Zhang]

So think of it this way...

 

Your intent moves your chi, and you use that chi to move the other person, right? So that chi has to go through your body, across the "empty" space, then to the other person, and have enough impact to affect their physical body.

 

So to do that, you have to have a REALLY damn good intent. You also have to have REALLY strong chi. There are a lot of ways to cultivate intent, and a lot of ways to cultivate strong chi. But for the sake of comparing these masters to, say, an MMA fighter, I'll use some specific ones.

 

You can cultivate intent by overcoming hardships. Keeping your eye on the prize, and never stopping until you get it. So in your MMA workouts you get to the end and you keep going. Someone is punching your face in, they are a better fighter than you, your body is screaming in pain, and you fight back. You fight until someone is pouring a bucket of water on your head and you're waking up. You finally win, and you feel like it's worth it.

 

Compare that to how many qigong people train. Not that many do it to that extent for as long as even amateur MMAists go. 25-45 minutes? An hour every other day? Even amateur fighters struggling to make ends meet can get a DAILY workout regiment, at least an couple of hours every day (wake up and run before work, for instance), etc. So in the intent category, on average, no comparison.

 

How do you get strong chi? Taking care of your body and getting things to flow. Many MMAists, even amateurs, have really healthy bodies. They have to have them. They are flexible yet strong. They eat right and they stay away from stuff that hurts their bodies. Their body is their meal ticket. Good workout + good nutrition + strong intent = lots of clear, strong moving chi.

 

Compare this to the "chi bellies" that many qigong people have. I've seen some people leave comments on aikido videos on youtube saying "it's actually better to be fat, because then you are harder to throw".

 

 

Right, so then we come to the contest- the chi guy has to project chi in such a way that it overcomes the physicality and the chi of the MMAist. Meanwhile, the MMAist, who already has a lot of strong chi and intent, is using their intent AND their physical body.

 

So who do you REALLY think is going to win?

 

 

Now there are serious internal martial artists and qigong people who cultivate in the same levels and intensity that MMAists train. But those people usually don't put up videos showing them beating up MMAists. So, you know.

[NeiChuan]

So think of it this way...

 

Your intent moves your chi, and you use that chi to move the other person, right? So that chi has to go through your body, across the "empty" space, then to the other person, and have enough impact to affect their physical body.

 

So to do that, you have to have a REALLY damn good intent. You also have to have REALLY strong chi. There are a lot of ways to cultivate intent, and a lot of ways to cultivate strong chi. But for the sake of comparing these masters to, say, an MMA fighter, I'll use some specific ones.

 

You can cultivate intent by overcoming hardships. Keeping your eye on the prize, and never stopping until you get it. So in your MMA workouts you get to the end and you keep going. Someone is punching your face in, they are a better fighter than you, your body is screaming in pain, and you fight back. You fight until someone is pouring a bucket of water on your head and you're waking up. You finally win, and you feel like it's worth it.

 

Compare that to how many qigong people train. Not that many do it to that extent for as long as even amateur MMAists go. 25-45 minutes? An hour every other day? Even amateur fighters struggling to make ends meet can get a DAILY workout regiment, at least an couple of hours every day (wake up and run before work, for instance), etc. So in the intent category, on average, no comparison.

 

How do you get strong chi? Taking care of your body and getting things to flow. Many MMAists, even amateurs, have really healthy bodies. They have to have them. They are flexible yet strong. They eat right and they stay away from stuff that hurts their bodies. Their body is their meal ticket. Good workout + good nutrition + strong intent = lots of clear, strong moving chi.

 

Compare this to the "chi bellies" that many qigong people have. I've seen some people leave comments on aikido videos on youtube saying "it's actually better to be fat, because then you are harder to throw".

 

 

Right, so then we come to the contest- the chi guy has to project chi in such a way that it overcomes the physicality and the chi of the MMAist. Meanwhile, the MMAist, who already has a lot of strong chi and intent, is using their intent AND their physical body.

 

So who do you REALLY think is going to win?

 

 

Now there are serious internal martial artists and qigong people who cultivate in the same levels and intensity that MMAists train. But those people usually don't put up videos showing them beating up MMAists. So, you know.

 

 

Bull.

 

I don't see why you try and generalize MMA Fighters as health nuts either. Cause it doesn't sound like you know any.

 

Also if it takes 100% of his mind to fail at throwing someone with his energy, for him.. at the time.. It's impossible. Either because he isn't strong enough.. or what he's doing is made up.

 

Simple as that.

 

Neichuan

[Mahberry]

The only kind of qigong demo I find believable (though I'm still a bit skeptical).

He even demonstrated it with his petite wife at the end of the video.

Goes way back, I think it was 12 years ago when I first read about him. I just found out about this video last month that he was sending to people back then to prove his ability.

You can also read his posts on rec.martial.arts with the alias Barbara Parker/Ryan Parker. He welcomed anyone to pay him a visit and strike him at full force anywhere below the neck.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Bull.

 

How so?

 

I don't see why you try and generalize MMA Fighters as health nuts either. Cause it doesn't sound like you know any.

 

I'm not generalizing them as health nuts (though people who do well in amateur circuits, want to go up to the pro level, and those in the pro levels do have to take care of their bodies, and most do a pretty damn good job of that, even if it is only in training camps, which last for months at a time). I am saying that the average person who trains MMA, even at an amateur level, is most likely getting healthier than the average tai chi or qigong practitioner. I am making this based on how I KNOW MMAists train (based on those I know and have trained with), and based on how I KNOW tai chi and qigong people train (based on those I know and those who I have visited, as none live near me, though I did take a look at their training schedules).

 

In a fight, you'd have person A, who routinely ups their heart rate, trains to develop muscle, and practices overcoming the mental and physical challenges of having to deal with someone trying to knock them out or submit them, fighting person B, who probably does little to up their heart rate, and most likely trains against a mostly compliant and only semi-resistant partner in very narrow fighting situations, such as not fighting on the ground or in the clinch.

 

So yes, I am betting that person A will defeat person B, and I am saying that person A most likely has more chi, healthier chi, and a stronger intent than person B.

 

So please explain to me how any of that is "bull".

 

Of course, this is all assuming the veracity of the chi paradigm. I thought that was pretty clear from the way I was outlining the dynamics, but I guess not. If you don't believe in chi, then it's just one person who is doing something that doesn't exist as he is getting beat up.

 

So, yeah, if you don't believe in the chi paradigm, you don't have to respond.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[the truth]

thank you all...... :)

but till now i didn't get the right answer

[the truth]

where are..........you..!!!

[NeiChuan]

How so?

 

 

 

I'm not generalizing them as health nuts (though people who do well in amateur circuits, want to go up to the pro level, and those in the pro levels do have to take care of their bodies, and most do a pretty damn good job of that, even if it is only in training camps, which last for months at a time). I am saying that the average person who trains MMA, even at an amateur level, is most likely getting healthier than the average tai chi or qigong practitioner. I am making this based on how I KNOW MMAists train (based on those I know and have trained with), and based on how I KNOW tai chi and qigong people train (based on those I know and those who I have visited, as none live near me, though I did take a look at their training schedules).

 

In a fight, you'd have person A, who routinely ups their heart rate, trains to develop muscle, and practices overcoming the mental and physical challenges of having to deal with someone trying to knock them out or submit them, fighting person B, who probably does little to up their heart rate, and most likely trains against a mostly compliant and only semi-resistant partner in very narrow fighting situations, such as not fighting on the ground or in the clinch.

 

So yes, I am betting that person A will defeat person B, and I am saying that person A most likely has more chi, healthier chi, and a stronger intent than person B.

 

So please explain to me how any of that is "bull".

 

Of course, this is all assuming the veracity of the chi paradigm. I thought that was pretty clear from the way I was outlining the dynamics, but I guess not. If you don't believe in chi, then it's just one person who is doing something that doesn't exist as he is getting beat up.

 

So, yeah, if you don't believe in the chi paradigm, you don't have to respond.

 

 

You're over analyzing about something you don't know.

 

Also who is to say there aren't plenty of internal martial artists that train hard? there are most definitely people who work to make their internal arts into contact arts by sparring daily aswell.

 

You may not think so but you are generalizing alot.. Which doesn't help your argument, it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

 

What I was saying was bull was the fact that, the person trying to throw that person with their energy. Was delusional, and the person teaching them had mislead them. If he was practicing an effective art that uses energy, he would know he could do it. Instead he thought he knew because his friends jumped around for him.

 

By the way when you say MMA fighters routinely upping their heart rate, do you mean a strenuous cardio workout? Because I mentioned a small run to an MMA guy I know that just took a trip to Thailand. and His response was a gaping mouth because I was running 2 miles without music, every morning. If I can do 2 miles in my first run, it's not alot.

 

And plenty of fighters don't know what strenuous cardio is.

 

Neichuan

Edited June 23, 2011 by NeiChuan

[orb]

 

 

The only kind of qigong demo I find believable (though I'm still a bit skeptical).

 

 

 

Here's exactly the same ability made simple:

 

Edited June 23, 2011 by orb

[Sloppy Zhang]

You're over analyzing about something you don't know.

 

As a great rhetor once spake:

 

Bull.

 

 

See how utterly unhelpful such a response is? Unless you actually back up what you are saying with some kind of references, it's hard to tell if your statement is based on some rationale, or if it is just a random, knee-jerk response.

 

Also who is to say there aren't plenty of internal martial artists that train hard?

 

I never said there aren't.

 

there are most definitely people who work to make their internal arts into contact arts by sparring daily aswell.

 

Of course there are.

 

You may not think so but you are generalizing alot..

 

Of course I am. Everybody does. That's how we can function and communicate without being so bogged down in exceptions and caveats and disclaimers that we would cease to function!

 

Which doesn't help your argument, it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Am I to take it that your refutation of my point is that "well there are some guys out there for whom that doesn't apply"?

 

Well I'd agree with you!

 

Of course there are IMA guys out there who train as hard and as intensely as external guys. I'm sure there are some IMA guys who train harder. And some who train less.

 

What I was saying was bull was the fact that, the person trying to throw that person with their energy. Was delusional, and the person teaching them had mislead them. If he was practicing an effective art that uses energy, he would know he could do it. Instead he thought he knew because his friends jumped around for him.

 

Exactly my point. If they practiced, say, under some realistic conditions, such as a non-compliant partner in a full contact setting, you'd know pretty damn well if you could throw someone around with your chi or not.

 

My point is that, on your average walk down your street in your average city with your average population, you are more likely to find an external school training practically than you are likely to find an internal school training the same, let alone an empty force school.

 

And yes, with an average it means there are going to be people on both sides. Which means you and I can both find examples of whatever types of people we want, and still accuse the other person of not knowing what they are talking about, because we know someone who isn't like what the other person is putting forward.

 

By the way when you say MMA fighters routinely upping their heart rate, do you mean a strenuous cardio workout?

 

No, I do not.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Jetsun]

My take is that I think many students idolise their master, they turn him into an all powerful father figure and once you turn someone into a father figure authority you hand your power over to them to a certain extent, so many of these students have already submitted their energy to the master before they even try to punch him without even being conscious of it. While someone who isn't submissive will just walk up to the master and punch him in the mouth like you see in that first vid.

[NeiChuan]

 

 

 

My point is that, on your average walk down your street in your average city with your average population, you are more likely to find an external school training practically than you are likely to find an internal school training the same, let alone an empty force school.

 

 

This was all that was needed, next time you don't have to write a novel in response.

 

haha

[Sloppy Zhang]

This was all that was needed, next time you don't have to write a novel in response.

 

haha

 

I'd hardly call a handful of sentences and one whole paragraph a novel.

 

Next time you can be more specific about what exactly you have issue with so I can clarify at once, rather than your leaving ambiguous and possibly insulting statements of "bull" and "you don't know what you're talking about", to which I then have to send out a shotgun shot of potential responses, thus increasing the length of the post with which someone (in this case, you) will invariably have some kind of further issue.

 

And I'm sure learning to read a little won't kill you, and might even prove to be a useful life skill.

 

haha

Edited June 25, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[NeiChuan]

I'd hardly call a handful of sentences and one whole paragraph a novel.

 

Next time you can be more specific about what exactly you have issue with so I can clarify at once, rather than your leaving ambiguous and possibly insulting statements of "bull" and "you don't know what you're talking about", to which I then have to send out a shotgun shot of potential responses, thus increasing the length of the post with which someone (in this case, you) will invariably have some kind of further issue.

 

And I'm sure learning to read a little won't kill you, and might even prove to be a useful life skill.

 

haha

 

Was referring to your first post on the thread. I said when you make assumptions it makes you look like "you don't know what you're talking about".

 

Also if you began with your previous point the conversation wouldn't have lasted so long and we would have gotten on with our day. You wouldn't have to increase the length of your post. Words that hold weight won't need a dozen other points of beating around the bush.

 

"And I'm sure learning to read a little won't kill you, and might even prove to be a useful life skill."

 

Also that's possibly more "insulting" then "bull". Just because you add a haha doesn't mean people don't see your innuendo.

 

It wasn't very good though haha, so I don't take any offence.

Edited June 25, 2011 by NeiChuan

[Sloppy Zhang]

Also if you began with your previous point the conversation wouldn't have lasted so long

 

I thought the point would have been known without saying. Guess not.

 

When I first started posting I would always put disclaimers like "I know that not every IMAist is like this, but...." and "now course you could find someone who isn't like this", but it got to a point where it was said so often that, you know, people got the message without it having to be said.

 

And I generally read that into any post anybody makes when talking about large swaths of people, institutions, governments, movements, etc etc etc. Any time you speak about something generally you are going to make generalizations, and you are going to find examples within those populations that run counter to the generalized statement.

 

Just because you add a haha doesn't mean people don't see your innuendo.

 

I thought it made some nice symmetry with the end of your post.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[NeiChuan]

 

And I generally read that into any post anybody makes when talking about large swaths of people, institutions, governments, movements, etc etc etc. Any time you speak about something generally you are going to make generalizations, and you are going to find examples within those populations that run counter to the generalized statement.

 

 

 

 

Yea but then where does it end?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yea but then where does it end?

 

Not quite sure what you mean.

[NeiChuan]

Not quite sure what you mean.

 

The generalizations

[Sloppy Zhang]

The generalizations

 

Yea but then where does it end?

 

Yeah, what do you mean by that?

 

If you talk about things in general, you are going to make generalizations.

[NeiChuan]

Yeah, what do you mean by that?

 

If you talk about things in general, you are going to make generalizations.

 

 

Just because you're somewhat generalizing you don't have to step over all details, plenty are still useful.

 

Is this conversation over now? haha

[the truth]

Just because you're somewhat generalizing you don't have to step over all details, plenty are still useful.

 

Is this conversation over now? haha

i think it must be over.....

you are completly out of subject...

in this case you are not helping....

[Sloppy Zhang]

plenty are still useful.

 

Sure about that? I'd hate for someone to have to read a "novel" length response just to make sure I get in all the appropriate details.

 

You complained about my first post in this thread already. Imagine how long it'd have been if I had put in all the exceptions, disclaimers, and acknowledged whatever counter cases I could think of just so I could cover the bases to make you (or someone like you) happy.

 

Cover everything- post is too long.

Don't cover everything- people think you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[NeiChuan]

Sure about that? I'd hate for someone to have to read a "novel" length response just to make sure I get in all the appropriate details.

 

You complained about my first post in this thread already. Imagine how long it'd have been if I had put in all the exceptions, disclaimers, and acknowledged whatever counter cases I could think of just so I could cover the bases to make you (or someone like you) happy.

 

Cover everything- post is too long.

Don't cover everything- people think you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

lol Oh jeez. You know exactly what I imply. I meant just to display your points with the sufficient details without generalizing to the point your perspective appears vague.

 

If you do that, go ahead and write a long post.