is there something unreal in the "empty force technique"..!

[Sloppy Zhang]

lol Oh jeez. You know exactly what I imply.

 

No, actually, I don't.

 

Have you considered writing longer posts so you could elucidate your point more completely?

 

Because this:

your perspective appears vague.

 

Applies much more to statements like "bull" and "you obviously don't know what you're talking about but I'm not going to point out what exactly you said that leads me to believe that and I'm not going to expound on my own knowledge and connect it to how I drew the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about".

[templetao]

edit...empty force rules!

Edited June 26, 2011 by templetao

[Mattimo]

^ Guys, please...it doesn't matter.

 

I like to entertain the idea that empty-force is possible. Perhaps it is a natural outcome of the refinement of awareness and movement that practices such as tai-chi can lead one to. Truly, I don't see why not. Apparently, some of the most famous masters of the last century mentioned or alluded to such a concept i.e. Huang Sheng Shyan and Ma Yu Liang.

[NeiChuan]

No, actually, I don't.

 

 

You know exactly what I imply. I meant just to display your points with the sufficient details without generalizing to the point your perspective appears vague.

 

Just said it again, didn't look like you read it.

Edited June 29, 2011 by NeiChuan

[Sloppy Zhang]

You know exactly what I imply.

 

If I did, then I wouldn't have said "no, I don't" as many times as I have.

 

I meant just to display your points with the sufficient details without generalizing to the point your perspective appears vague.

 

And as I have said- if you speak generally, there are going to be generalizations, and there will be exceptions to every rule, and exceptions that prove the rule, and everything in between and beyond.

 

If you have a problem with something or seek clarification, it would greatly help to point out what specifically you have issue with so that both parties can zero in on a more specific detail, rather than slinging around equally general and vague responses which don't seem to be based on whatever critique you have and which leave the other party guessing as to what you meant.

 

Just said it again, didn't look like you read it.

 

I read it, but you've crossed streams in the conversation, and aren't answering the question that I was referring to.

 

You: Display your points with detail.

Me: If you speak about things in general, you are going to have generalizations.

You: But where does it end?

Me: What do you mean by that?

You: You know what I mean.

Me: No, I don't.

You: Yes, you do. So add detail.

Me: But if you speak generally about something (especially a broad topic like martial arts), you won't know what to add the detail about, hence when speaking generally, you have generalizations.

You: Yes, but where does it end?

Me: I still don't know what you mean by that question.

You: Yes you do. I've said it before you just didn't read.

 

 

So what do you mean by "where does it end"?

 

I assume by "it" you mean "the generalizations". But I don't know for certain. See this is exactly what I mean when I suggested that it'd be swell of you to actually be specific about what you take issue with or what you are referring to. Because I'm sitting here guessing, and you're leaving responses and I don't even know what you're referring to. Which is ironic, because you're the one telling me to add detail!

 

Haha.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[NeiChuan]

If I did, then I wouldn't have said "no, I don't" as many times as I have.

 

 

 

And as I have said- if you speak generally, there are going to be generalizations, and there will be exceptions to every rule, and exceptions that prove the rule, and everything in between and beyond.

 

If you have a problem with something or seek clarification, it would greatly help to point out what specifically you have issue with so that both parties can zero in on a more specific detail, rather than slinging around equally general and vague responses which don't seem to be based on whatever critique you have and which leave the other party guessing as to what you meant.

 

 

 

I read it, but you've crossed streams in the conversation, and aren't answering the question that I was referring to.

 

You: Display your points with detail.

Me: If you speak about things in general, you are going to have generalizations.

You: But where does it end?

Me: What do you mean by that?

You: You know what I mean.

Me: No, I don't.

You: Yes, you do. So add detail.

Me: But if you speak generally about something (especially a broad topic like martial arts), you won't know what to add the detail about, hence when speaking generally, you have generalizations.

You: Yes, but where does it end?

Me: I still don't know what you mean by that question.

You: Yes you do. I've said it before you just didn't read.

 

 

So what do you mean by "where does it end"?

 

I assume by "it" you mean "the generalizations". But I don't know for certain. See this is exactly what I mean when I suggested that it'd be swell of you to actually be specific about what you take issue with or what you are referring to. Because I'm sitting here guessing, and you're leaving responses and I don't even know what you're referring to. Which is ironic, because you're the one telling me to add detail!

 

Haha.

 

 

Look back in my replies and tell me if you find it.

 

I meant the generalizations (which have mentioned in almost every post above this one). Generalizing once in awhile isn't bad, but when it's all of your examples there's a problem.

 

Where does it end? When you generalize every example you give you aren't doing anyone very good, being that's not how it is. It's a generalization.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I meant the generalizations (which have mentioned in almost every post above this one). Generalizing once in awhile isn't bad, but when it's all of your examples there's a problem.

 

See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Could have just said it straight the first time.

 

Where does it end?

 

When the conversation becomes progressively more defined. "What's the deal with empty force? How come people who don't believe it aren't affected? Why do these MMA guys overcome empty force?" are all incredibly broad questions involving incredibly broad topics. Until it is narrowed, you only really have a choice to speak generally.

 

So say someone comes in and says "hey should I get a tattoo? I dunno what tattoo I'd want, but should I get one?" I somehow doubt that there would be throngs of people saying "yes!" I'm sure the prevailing response (as I've seen in the past) is "as of now, no, but let me ask you a few things like what you like, where you want to get it, etc". The first response is an overall, generalized response, but it shifts as the parameters of the conversation shift (for instance, "I know what I want", "I've consulted an artist" etc etc, in which the answer becomes a "yes, go ahead"). It would be a mistake to extrapolate their initial response to such a vague query to the entire subject of tattoos.

 

 

 

Now I've been in a lot of discussions involving the martial arts, and I've seen many more. And I know how whiny people get over stuff like "but you said karate only does point sparring, but in my dojo we do free sparring" and "but you said wing chun doesn't have a ground game, but my sifu taught us takedown defenses". So I am very careful about putting the proper qualifiers.

 

And reviewing my post, it is obvious that I was discussing general trends based on what you were most likely to see in your average location of training.

 

Now if you choose to extrapolate those clearly qualified statements, that is no fault of mine.

 

If you choose to extrapolate and then respond with "bull" because somewhere out there there are people training IMA just as seriously as people who are professional MMAists, that is no fault of mine (and on the subject of there being intense IMAists, I have, and will continue to, agree).

 

If you choose to extrapolate and then come to the conclusion that I don't know what I am talking about because you knew some MMAist whose cardio wasn't as good as even a non-fighter, that is also no fault of mine (and on the subject of "I know someone who....", I know and have trained with a variety of people as well, so I can pick out anyone from my past history to prove whatever point I decide I'm making that day).

 

 

 

But perhaps you thought my post resembled a "novel" too much for you to take care in your reading and analysis, and so you glossed over the many times I carefully qualified my points, which of course subsequently indicated their "general" nature (which I later clarified again and you treated it as some stunning new revelation about how to interpret my post). And if that is the case, I must again float the suggestion of "learn how to read", because nothing I have produced in this thread (even including this post) even remotely resembles a novel.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[NeiChuan]

See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Could have just said it straight the first time.

 

 

 

When the conversation becomes progressively more defined. "What's the deal with empty force? How come people who don't believe it aren't affected? Why do these MMA guys overcome empty force?" are all incredibly broad questions involving incredibly broad topics. Until it is narrowed, you only really have a choice to speak generally.

 

So say someone comes in and says "hey should I get a tattoo? I dunno what tattoo I'd want, but should I get one?" I somehow doubt that there would be throngs of people saying "yes!" I'm sure the prevailing response (as I've seen in the past) is "as of now, no, but let me ask you a few things like what you like, where you want to get it, etc". The first response is an overall, generalized response, but it shifts as the parameters of the conversation shift (for instance, "I know what I want", "I've consulted an artist" etc etc, in which the answer becomes a "yes, go ahead"). It would be a mistake to extrapolate their initial response to such a vague query to the entire subject of tattoos.

 

 

 

Now I've been in a lot of discussions involving the martial arts, and I've seen many more. And I know how whiny people get over stuff like "but you said karate only does point sparring, but in my dojo we do free sparring" and "but you said wing chun doesn't have a ground game, but my sifu taught us takedown defenses". So I am very careful about putting the proper qualifiers.

 

And reviewing my post, it is obvious that I was discussing general trends based on what you were most likely to see in your average location of training.

 

Now if you choose to extrapolate those clearly qualified statements, that is no fault of mine.

 

If you choose to extrapolate and then respond with "bull" because somewhere out there there are people training IMA just as seriously as people who are professional MMAists, that is no fault of mine (and on the subject of there being intense IMAists, I have, and will continue to, agree).

 

If you choose to extrapolate and then come to the conclusion that I don't know what I am talking about because you knew some MMAist whose cardio wasn't as good as even a non-fighter, that is also no fault of mine (and on the subject of "I know someone who....", I know and have trained with a variety of people as well, so I can pick out anyone from my past history to prove whatever point I decide I'm making that day).

 

 

 

But perhaps you thought my post resembled a "novel" too much for you to take care in your reading and analysis, and so you glossed over the many times I carefully qualified my points, which of course subsequently indicated their "general" nature (which I later clarified again and you treated it as some stunning new revelation about how to interpret my post). And if that is the case, I must again float the suggestion of "learn how to read", because nothing I have produced in this thread (even including this post) even remotely resembles a novel.

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

 

It's always easier if you know how.

 

 

Here's the cliff notes version- this whole conversation happened because you did not read. If you actually review my first post, I carefully qualified each of my statements so that anyone with a shred of reading capability could comprehend that I was talking about the trends of the average training for the average school for the average person in the average city.

 

Of course, when I pointed it out to you, you acted as if it had never been said in the thread before. When, in fact, it had.

 

So, stop blaming others for your shortcomings and confusions.

 

And learn how to read.

 

Haha.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ya Mu]

^ Guys, please...it doesn't matter.

 

I like to entertain the idea that empty-force is possible. Perhaps it is a natural outcome of the refinement of awareness and movement that practices such as tai-chi can lead one to. Truly, I don't see why not. Apparently, some of the most famous masters of the last century mentioned or alluded to such a concept i.e. Huang Sheng Shyan and Ma Yu Liang.

Agreed.

I am not a martial artist and I certainly wouldn't call it "empty force" but I have seen this effect happen on people who had no prior belief or disbelief; they knew nothing whatsoever about it. Do I think it is constantly reproducible? No. IMO way too many variables, not the least being the ebb and flow and constant state of flux of energy, the electrical resistance, capacitance, and qi level of the person receiving, and the current moment state of the person initiating it. Of course this is exactly the same reason that doubly blind studies concerning medical qigong are difficult to perform.

[NeiChuan]

It's always easier if you know how.

 

 

Here's the cliff notes version- this whole conversation happened because you did not read. If you actually review my first post, I carefully qualified each of my statements so that anyone with a shred of reading capability could comprehend that I was talking about the trends of the average training for the average school for the average person in the average city.

 

Of course, when I pointed it out to you, you acted as if it had never been said in the thread before. When, in fact, it had.

 

So, stop blaming others for your shortcomings and confusions.

 

And learn how to read.

 

Haha.

 

 

Lol Condense all my replies into that Gif.

[ShaktiMama]

Agreed.

I am not a martial artist and I certainly wouldn't call it "empty force" but I have seen this effect happen on people who had no prior belief or disbelief; they knew nothing whatsoever about it. Do I think it is constantly reproducible? No. IMO way too many variables, not the least being the ebb and flow and constant state of flux of energy, the electrical resistance, capacitance, and qi level of the person receiving, and the current moment state of the person initiating it. Of course this is exactly the same reason that doubly blind studies concerning medical qigong are difficult to perform.

 

 

I am not a martial artist and I wouldn't call it "empty force" either. And you bring up other good points.

 

I have pulled people down to the floor from across the room when their eyes were closed by manipulating their wei chi.

 

I also can radiate a wei chi field so that people who are blindfolded can follow me around a large room by the chi "trail" that I leave.

 

These are much easier to do than the martial arts videos demos. Chi is a subtle energy. There are masters out there who can knock people off their stance or chairs by using chi but you pretty much won't find them on you tube. I can do it if people are really ungrounded and are taken by surprise but I can't do it twice in a row.

 

One must first practice sensitization and internal cultivation to do these things. Doesn't take years of practice. Everyone mostly feels chi all the time. It is just people have been desensitized by their culture or upbringing to disbelieve or deny it is happening.

 

I will blindfold students and transmit chi to them. You can see it their face when they feel the chi but you can also see them discount it almost immediately. Others can see the person's body start to sway and respond to the chi but yet the person will say they feel nothing. That's because we have become dulled to feeling subtle energies. Once the ability is re-awakened or cultivated in a student they begin to play with chi alot. They have a lot of fun with it.

 

Here's a vid of my teaching partner, Santi, using chi on a student while the student has his back to him.

 

It takes a little time to undo the desensitization and the mind programming. Some people can do this in just a weekend.

 

Knocking someone off their chair...now that takes a while to cultivate.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/silatyogi#p/u/34/mU7GK8eRYmg

[Sloppy Zhang]

Lol Condense all my replies into that Gif.

 

That gif sure does explain a lot.

[Ya Mu]

I am not a martial artist and I wouldn't call it "empty force" either. And you bring up other good points.

 

I have pulled people down to the floor from across the room when their eyes were closed by manipulating their wei chi.

 

I also can radiate a wei chi field so that people who are blindfolded can follow me around a large room by the chi "trail" that I leave.

 

These are much easier to do than the martial arts videos demos. Chi is a subtle energy. There are masters out there who can knock people off their stance or chairs by using chi but you pretty much won't find them on you tube. I can do it if people are really ungrounded and are taken by surprise but I can't do it twice in a row.

 

One must first practice sensitization and internal cultivation to do these things. Doesn't take years of practice. Everyone mostly feels chi all the time. It is just people have been desensitized by their culture or upbringing to disbelieve or deny it is happening.

 

I will blindfold students and transmit chi to them. You can see it their face when they feel the chi but you can also see them discount it almost immediately. Others can see the person's body start to sway and respond to the chi but yet the person will say they feel nothing. That's because we have become dulled to feeling subtle energies. Once the ability is re-awakened or cultivated in a student they begin to play with chi alot. They have a lot of fun with it.

 

Here's a vid of my teaching partner, Santi, using chi on a student while the student has his back to him.

 

It takes a little time to undo the desensitization and the mind programming. Some people can do this in just a weekend.

 

Knocking someone off their chair...now that takes a while to cultivate.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/silatyogi#p/u/34/mU7GK8eRYmg

Your experiences coincide with my own. This happens regardless of belief, although, as you say, belief can interfere with the student's recognition initially.

 

Before I learned control and some of the "don't do this-es" of energy manipulation, I used to throw qi. Several times I have seen people thrown several feet to the floor with this. Knocked a huge martial artist type out of his chair - and he absolutely had no prior belief in this qi stuff, but came to my workshop anyway. Lucky for me he took it OK (actually came to other workshops) Also, and I believe I have posted this before, had a girl walk up to me in a heath food store and asked me about a workshop but wanted to feel qi. I slung qi at her and it knocked her several feet across the room into an unconscious heap. Lucky for me I was able to instantly revive her with medical qigong, and she became one of my best students. I learned my lesson and have NEVER thrown the qi since (and this was many years ago).

 

Also, when I was younger, was "hit" by a 90 something year old Chinese Master. I had never even heard the term "empty force", but was clearly knocked several feet to the wall, and his open palm strike didn't physically touch me. Lucky for me I ended up studying with him for 3 years. The force damn sure wasn't empty.

 

But hey, like I said, I am not a martial artist so I'll let the MA types argue about it.

[minkus]

The force damn sure wasn't empty.

 

Haha super

[Sloppy Zhang]

Agreed.

I am not a martial artist and I certainly wouldn't call it "empty force"

 

I am not a martial artist and I wouldn't call it "empty force" either. And you bring up other good points.

 

The force damn sure wasn't empty.

 

I don't think that's what they mean by the "empty" in "empty force".

[NeiChuan]

That gif sure does explain a lot.

 

 

Well we all know how over analytic you are. Maybe you could give me lesser than a biography post on what you discovered from looking at it.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well we all know how over analytic you are. Maybe you could give me lesser than a biography post on what you discovered from looking at it.

 

Nothing I've said in this thread has even come close to the lengths you describe. The fact that you think so means you've got bigger problems.

 

Other people routinely post longer posts on this forum. Other people routinely respond to longer posts. And even in this thread a couple of people have produced some sizeable chunks of texts.

 

Don't blame someone else just because you can't be bothered to read something that can't fit in a gif caption.

 

(and btw, that "over analysis" has been made before about empty force, by others and myself. It isn't new. Not that you'd know anyway, since you wouldn't have read it then either)

Edited June 30, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[ShaktiMama]

 

 

Your experiences coincide with my own. This happens regardless of belief, although, as you say, belief can interfere with the student's recognition initially.

 

Before I learned control and some of the "don't do this-es" of energy manipulation, I used to throw qi. Several times I have seen people thrown several feet to the floor with this. Knocked a huge martial artist type out of his chair - and he absolutely had no prior belief in this qi stuff, but came to my workshop anyway. Lucky for me he took it OK (actually came to other workshops) Also, and I believe I have posted this before, had a girl walk up to me in a heath food store and asked me about a workshop but wanted to feel qi. I slung qi at her and it knocked her several feet across the room into an unconscious heap. Lucky for me I was able to instantly revive her with medical qigong, and she became one of my best students. I learned my lesson and have NEVER thrown the qi since (and this was many years ago).

 

Also, when I was younger, was "hit" by a 90 something year old Chinese Master. I had never even heard the term "empty force", but was clearly knocked several feet to the wall, and his open palm strike didn't physically touch me. Lucky for me I ended up studying with him for 3 years. The force damn sure wasn't empty.

 

But hey, like I said, I am not a martial artist so I'll let the MA types argue about it.

[NeiChuan]

Nothing I've said in this thread has even come close to the lengths you describe. The fact that you think so means you've got bigger problems.

 

Other people routinely post longer posts on this forum. Other people routinely respond to longer posts. And even in this thread a couple of people have produced some sizeable chunks of texts.

 

Don't blame someone else just because you can't be bothered to read something that can't fit in a gif caption.

 

(and btw, that "over analysis" has been made before about empty force, by others and myself. It isn't new. Not that you'd know anyway, since you wouldn't have read it then either)

 

I have nothing wrong with long posts if there's useful information.

 

I'll speak for myself when I say time has been wasted here, so going to stop my input in the conversation.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I have nothing wrong with long posts if there's useful information.

 

Of course the only way you could accurately appraise the usefulness of the information is if you actually read the post.

 

And you have demonstrated in this thread (by asking about an issue which was clearly and repeatedly conveyed in the first post it was discussed, as well by as providing a picture describing your reading habits) that you do not.

 

So I find your statement questionable.

 

Wait, I think there was a more concise post which conveys what I'm getting at, and I think you could even fit it in a gif... I think you'll like this one...

 

Bull.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[adept]

But hey, like I said, I am not a martial artist so I'll let the MA types argue about it.

 

I attended a workshop with a very respected UK IMA guy about 6 years ago in which we were working with the 'spiral force' in Bagua and Taiji.

In one of the demonstrations I was hit very lightly by this guy's palm on my chest. I literally flew across the room. At the same time all the air left my lungs. I'd never experienced anything like it (or have since) in over 2 decades of external martial arts.

[kundalini]

 

The only kind of qigong demo I find believable (though I'm still a bit skeptical).

 

He even demonstrated it with his petite wife at the end of the video.

 

Goes way back, I think it was 12 years ago when I first read about him. I just found out about this video last month that he was sending to people back then to prove his ability.

 

You can also read his posts on rec.martial.arts with the alias Barbara Parker/Ryan Parker. He welcomed anyone to pay him a visit and strike him at full force anywhere below the neck.

 

Explains the training that Ryan Parker did:

 

http://www.boudicca.de/qigong-e.htm

 

I read somewhere Mr Parker competed in UFC competetion and they could not get a armlock on him (unbendable arm). Theres a video of him in the fight. He loses by lapel choke though. The video seems to be deleted off the internet.

 

source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_7

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_UFC_7_Remco_Pardoel_vs_Ryan_Parker?vid=10014494

Edited July 23, 2011 by kundalini