[TTC Study] Chapter 43 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[MassTaoism]

Which one of these three entries is the most accepted among the Taoist community, or which one was the closest interpetation to Laozi's original writings? I would think the first entry would be, the way it was written most certainly sounds like something that could have been penned quite some time ago and it feels a little less "modern".

 

Still, it's a great study and lot's could be learned from this chapter, I will meditate on this tonight at some point before I bed down for the night.

[Marblehead]

Hi Mass Taoism,

 

It is my understanding that Henricks' translation is the most accurate as it is based on the oldest 'originals' found to date.

 

As is being discussed in a different thread currently, the individual English words selected to represent the Chinese character may slightly alter the thought being presented and word selection is mostly a personal thing amongst the translators.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 43 - The Benefit of Wu Wei

 

Translation in terse English:

1. The extreme softness in the world.

2. Manipulates the extreme hardness of the world.

3. Formless enters non-space.

4. Because of that, I know the benefit of Wu Wei

5. Teaching without words

6. The benefit of Wu Wei.

7. There is no comparison with it in the world.

 

 

Classic text with pinyin

1. 天 下 之 至 柔 ，

1. tian1 xia4 zhi1 zhi4 rou2,

2. 馳 騁 天 下 之 至 堅 。

2. chi2 cheng3 tian1 xia4 zhi1 zhi4 jian1.

 

3. 無 有 入 無 間 ，

3. wu2 you3 ru4 wu2 jian1,

4. 吾 是 以 知 無 為 之 有 益 。

4. wu3 shi4 yi3 zhi1 wu2 wei2 zhi1 you3 yi4.

 

5. 不 言 之 教 ，

5. bu4 yan2 zhi1 jiao4,

6. 無 為 之 益

6. wu2 wei2 zhi1 yi4,

7. 天 下 希 及 之 。

7. tian1 xia4 xi1 ji2 zhi1.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 43 - The Benefit of Wu Wei

 

Translation in terse English:

 

Fair translation, I think. Therefore I have no comments.

[stan herman]

The John Wu translation speaks most eloquently to me. Non-Ado (without fuss) is not saying without action. Also Chi Dragon's terse version says what is so.

[dawei]

I think line 3 (Line 2 for Hendricks) often does not make any sense in most translations. The first two lines are a typical explanation of something like the ability of water; soft overcomes hard. The third is an explanation for something like a formless substance which can enter non-space. That makes no sense since if it is formless it does not need to enter anything; and non-space cannot be entered. Hendricks maybe has something which is meaningful but it still seems it misses the point. This is really about wu wei.

 

The idea of innate, natural action, or non-interference or unforced action, as most have said on this site, is not about "not acting" nor "not doing" but the issue is what is the impetus-source for the action. It comes from the Grand Unity or One (via the Great Way). When you connect to Unity, there is no need to distinguish between the 'have' (you) and 'have not' (wu). There is not form (wu you) and no space (wu jian); there is simply penetrating the source.

 

Following this idea, I came up with a thought which is that once you truly 'Wu Wei', then 'Wu' and 'You' are indistinguishable (無有入無間).

[ChiDragon]

(無有入無間).

LaoTze like to use the term 無(Wu3)

 

無有: Not have: LaoTze means the "Invisible Tao" again.

無間: Non-space. What is the opposite of non-space...??? It is a solid body. Thus LaoTze likes to make everything sound paradoxical.

 

無有入無間:

What is really he was saying:

The invisible Tao can enter into any solid body to illustrate his point about the first two lines.

 

1. The extreme softness in the world.

2. Manipulates the extreme hardness of the world.

3. Formless enters non-space.

 

The extreme softness is the formless Tao. Tao is omnipresent.

[dawei]

(無有入無間).

LaoTze like to use the term 無(Wu3)

Sorry... pre-Han writings show 1300 pages of usage; not LZ likes...

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E7%84%A1

 

無有: Not have:

YES

LaoTze means the "Invisible Tao" again.

NO. You mean this

 

無間: Non-space. What is the opposite of non-space...??? It is a solid body. Thus LaoTze likes to make everything sound paradoxical.

Many meanings. Context rules.

 

無有入無間:

What is really he was saying:

The invisible Tao can enter into any solid body to illustrate his point about the first two lines.

 

1. The extreme softness in the world.

2. Manipulates the extreme hardness of the world.

3. Formless enters non-space.

 

The extreme softness is the formless Tao. Tao is omnipresent.

Tao is not a 'thing'... you have some sort of Transformer movie idea going on, along with some really bad english.

 

"Formless enters non-space"? Are we not talking the movie, "Lost in Space"? Learn some english and then post some more.

[ChiDragon]

Guess what is really the formless and the extreme softness...???

Can anybody deny that Wu Wei is not formless and the extreme softness in the world....???

 

 

PS...

I'm saving this for last....

Edited June 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Guess what is really the formless and the extreme softness...???

Can anybody deny that Wu Wei is not formless and the extreme softness in the world....???

 

 

PS...

I'm saving this for last....

more games. have your fun here.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You guys are great!!!

 

(I'm glad I don't read Chinese and therefore cannot get involved in these discussions.)

 

Tao permeates all things because all things are Tao.

 

Wei Wu Wei.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. You guys are great!!!

 

(I'm glad I don't read Chinese and therefore cannot get involved in these discussions.)

 

Tao permeates all things because all things are Tao.

 

Wei Wu Wei.

You don't read Chinese, not just Chinese but Classic Chinese. There is a nuance. One cannot interpret the classic text just with some basic knowledge of modern Chinese. The classic text was dominated by metaphorical thoughts. It must be interpreted by inductive and deductive reasoning with a good historical insight and cultural background. However, I don't know how you managed to grasp more than those who knew some Chinese.

 

"為無為(Wei Wu Wei)"

It was because you'd said that; the show must be kept going.

 

If one study the Tao Te Ching long enough, one should know by now, LoaTze had a special pattern in handling his style in writing. He loves to say things in a negative sense. He loves to use the negative character 無(wu3) to reverse the logic of a positive description. As you said, "Loatze is the master of paradox".

 

Let's go over these three negative terms below.

1. 無 有(Wu3 you2): don't have; not have; not exist

2. 無 間(Wu3 Jian1): no space in between

3. 無 為(Wu3 Wei): being natural(by LaoTze's definition).

 

1. 無 有 the closest direct translation is "don't have" or "not have". If something that we don't have, then it is not visible to us but it may be still existed in the world. However, if we say something that the world doesn't have, then that something does not exist. In the classic text, 無 有 was a term used to imply something that doesn't exist. By LaoTze's definition, he doesn't mean that something doesn't exist, rather he meant something that exists but invisible.

2. 無 間(Wu3 Jian1): no space in between

無(Wu3): not; none. The character doesn't say "not exist" directly but only implies "not exist".

間(Jian1); space in between

 

Therefore, by saying 無 間(Wu3 Jian1) means no space in between; no gap; no crack; no split; no opening; no space by logic. If there is no gap, by inductive reasoning, something has to be solid.

 

Let's try all the possible translation for:

無有入無間

Non-logical translations:

1. Something that does not exist enters the no gap or whatever.

2. Something that we don't have enters the no crack.

 

Logical translation:

3. Something that is invisible enters the no space in between.

Terse English...

4. Invisible enters no gap.

5. Invisible enters something solid.

6. Invisible enters non-space.

 

Sometimes, there is no direct translation form one language to another. The only thing one can do is to translate it as close as possible, even though it may sound awkward. However, as long the logic was there to carry its meaning, then it was understood. That's all it matters.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

However, as long the logic was there to carry its meaning, then it was understood. That's all it matters.

 

Yes, that last I imagine air (the wind). Air is invisible but yet, when the air moves it will seep into any crack, even those that themselves were invisible.

 

Of course, water is generally used with this concept but water is not invisible so it's not a pure example.

 

And, of course, martial artists and military people use this concept with the understanding that no matter how secure an opponent appears to be the opponent will have weaknesses. The challenge is to find these weaknesses and exploit them.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, that last I imagine air (the wind). Air is invisible but yet, when the air moves it will seep into any crack, even those that themselves were invisible.

 

Of course, water is generally used with this concept but water is not invisible so it's not a pure example.

 

And, of course, martial artists and military people use this concept with the understanding that no matter how secure an opponent appears to be the opponent will have weaknesses. The challenge is to find these weaknesses and exploit them.

 

Tao permeates all things because all things are Tao.

If we are discussing the philosophical thoughts in the Tao Te Ching, then, Tao is invisible. Tao can enter anything without any crack.

 

If we are crazy enough and follow LaoTze's crazy idea, we might come to a conclusion that...

Wu Wei is formless and the extreme softness in the world....???

 

1. The extreme softness in the world.

2. Manipulates the extreme hardness of the world.

3. Formless enters non-space.

 

The extreme softness(Wu Wei) in the world. If we follow the Wu Wei concept, we can overcome any difficulty(manipulates the extreme hardness) in the world. Eventually that is what LaoTze was saying in these three metaphorical lines.

 

Note: The Wu Wei concept is "let Nature take its course without interference".

[dawei]

Yes, that last I imagine air (the wind). Air is invisible but yet, when the air moves it will seep into any crack, even those that themselves were invisible.

 

Of course, water is generally used with this concept but water is not invisible so it's not a pure example.

Also can think of how in chinese medicine, there is "wind invasion" of the body.

 

Taken further, Qi can somehow interact with something at a distance(or the Qi of that other something); maybe like how the universality of Qi can interact with itself; it has a kind of continuous and unbroken property.

 

Water fits the concept of 無有. Mencius uses it to show the nature of water is to flow downward; 水無有不下

 

Many ancient writers used the phrase and it can have many meaning. There is no reason to think that Lao Zi must only use it to mean something invisible. And 無間 does not only mean "no space". Again, there are many uses by many writers.

 

 

無間 (wu jian): very close / no gap between them / continuously / unbroken / hard to separate / no division / seamless / indistinguishable

Edited June 24, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

無有入無間: "無有" LaoTze used as a noun.

 

水無有不下: "無有" used here as a verb.

It says to me:

There is no water that doesn't go downward.

 

 

PS...

I speak and write and type the language for many many years. I don't mind any challenge to my understanding of my own native tongue.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I agree y'all. Water flowing downward is a concept impossible to deny. It is a very good tool to use in presenting concepts.

 

 

Yes, Chi. This is what I normally speak to as permeating all things in the universe. (Is this the neutrinos science talks about?)

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, Marblehead

It was another one of those unpleasant encounter with dawei about a language issue.

 

PS...

You are right though.

[dawei]

Sorry, Marblehead

It was another one of those unpleasant encounter with dawei about a language issue.

I am not sure what was the unpleasant encounter; I was posting to MH about other texts and uses of the word(s).

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I am glad we all are totally confused now.

 

I actually enjoy you two banter about word usage and possible translations of the characters. What y'all do is adding a lot to my understanding. Just don't be taking the bantering personal, Okay?

[lienshan]

I think line 3 (Line 2 for Hendricks) often does not make any sense in most translations. The first two lines are a typical explanation of something like the ability of water; soft overcomes hard. The third is an explanation for something like a formless substance which can enter non-space. That makes no sense since if it is formless it does not need to enter anything; and non-space cannot be entered. Hendricks maybe has something which is meaningful but it still seems it misses the point.

My interest, gambling on horseraces, made the translation a piece of cake,

because the 7th character "cheng" means "gallop horse"

 

the Mawangdui chapter 43

 

Below heaven reaching the soft hurries the gallop horse to reach the hard of world

coming from having no occupation entering to have no interval.

The knowledge of not being, my correct use, is beneficial.

Not speaking its teaching is to benefit of having no being.

The world's rare ability seizes it indeed!

 

heaven my correct use

 

This is really about wu wei.

The term "wu wei" occurs twice in this chapter and both means here "no being",

because there are no characters nomilizing "wei" as the verb "to do, to make".

"wei" would have been nomilized as "to do, to make" by the character "yi",

if Laozi hadn't used underlining in line two (the underlined replace "zhi").

 

My take on the pointe is, that spoken words aren't seized by the gravity,

while unspoken teaching by doing is understandable to all earthly beings.

[Procurator]

Are we not talking the movie, "Lost in Space"? Learn some english and then post some more.

in all fairness to amateur translators with sub-par english their "translations" make as much sense as those "professional" ones, i . e - none.

 

 

 

both of them have no clue whatsoever

 

天下之至柔,馳騁天下之至堅.

 

do they have any idea that the first line means smth like "in order to completely subdue the country - the punitive expeditions must be executed with extreme prejudice"?

 

no they dont.

[Marblehead]

in all fairness to amateur translators with sub-par english their "translations" make as much sense as those "professional" ones, i . e - none.

 

both of them have no clue whatsoever

 

Hehehe. Sometimes I have no clue either.

 

天下之至柔,馳騁天下之至堅.

 

do they have any idea that the first line means smth like "in order to completely subdue the country - the punitive expeditions must be executed with extreme prejudice"?

 

no they dont.

 

That quote can likely be found somewhere in "The Art Of War".

 

Myself, having a military background, I suggest that the quote is very valid. But the term "extreme prejudice" is a tricky one. It does not mean killing those who do not need be killed. "Extreme selectivity" might be a better term.

[Procurator]

Hehehe. Sometimes I have no clue either.

 

 

 

That quote can likely be found somewhere in "The Art Of War".

 

Myself, having a military background, I suggest that the quote is very valid. But the term "extreme prejudice" is a tricky one. It does not mean killing those who do not need be killed. "Extreme selectivity" might be a better term.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1453642757/ref=as_li_tf_til?tag=lewrockwell&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=1453642757&adid=0WXK526W19Q6N9PV1AE6&