Self-Consciousness

[Otis]

Sartre famously said: "Self-Consciousness is hell."

 

Personally, I find that nothing crashes me out of flow, like becoming self-conscious. It is an echo chamber, filled with noise and illusions.

 

What about you? Where does self-awareness end and self-consciousness begin? How does the Eastern concept of self/ego relate to the Western concept of self-consciousness? Is it a separate form of consciousness, with its own perceptions, memories, and fears? Have you felt imprisoned or immobilized by it? If you have been able to surrender some of your self-consciousness, how did you do it? Is there such a thing as a useful amount?

 

From Wikipedia:

Self-Consciousness

Not to be confused with Self-awareness, Self-concept, Self image, or Self-perception.

Self-consciousness is an acute sense of self-awareness. It is a preoccupation with oneself, as opposed to the philosophical state of self-awareness, which is the awareness that one exists as an individual being; although some writers use both terms interchangeably or synonymously.[1] An unpleasant feeling of self-consciousness may occur when one realizes that one is being watched or observed, the feeling that "everyone is looking" at oneself. Some people are habitually more self-conscious than others. Unpleasant feelings of self-consciousness are sometimes associated with shyness or paranoia.

 

Impairment

When feeling self-conscious, one becomes aware of even the smallest of one's own actions. Such awareness can impair one's ability to perform complex actions.

Adolescence is believed to be a time of heightened self-consciousness. A person with a chronic tendency toward self-consciousness may be shy or introverted.

 

Psychology

Unlike self-awareness, which in a philosophical context is being conscious of oneself as an individual, self-consciousness, being excessively conscious of one's appearance or manner, can be a problem at times. Self-consciousness is often associated with shyness and embarrassment, in which case a lack of pride and low self-esteem can result. In a positive context, self-consciousness may affect the development of identity, for it is during periods of high self-consciousness that people come the closest to knowing themselves objectively. Self-consciousness affects people in varying degrees, as some people are constantly self-monitoring or self-involved, while others are completely oblivious about themselves.

Psychologists frequently distinguish between two kinds of self-consciousness, private and public. Private self-consciousness is a tendency to introspect and examine one's inner self and feelings. Public self-consciousness is an awareness of the self as it is viewed by others. This kind of self-consciousness can result in self-monitoring and social anxiety. Both private and public self-consciousness are viewed as personality traits that are relatively stable over time, but they are not correlated. Just because an individual is high on one dimension doesn't mean that he or she is high on the other.

Different levels of self-consciousness affect behavior, as it is common for people to act differently when they "lose themselves in a crowd". Being in a crowd, being in a dark room, or wearing a disguise creates anonymity and temporarily decrease self-consciousness (see deindividuation). This can lead to uninhibited, sometimes destructive behavior.

[zerostao]

v

Edited June 23, 2011 by zerostao

[C T]

I tend to agree with Sartre.

 

Its been said that at the epitome of self-consciousness stands a complete narcissist.

Edited June 23, 2011 by CowTao

[strawdog65]

I too would agree that self-consciousness can be a hell.

 

Sometimes our actions require us to be both self-less

and to act outside of what the self would want to be the

course of action, for there to be actual growth.

 

So maybe being unconsciously aware is the answer?

Or naturally aware without forcing anything?

 

If one's actions truly follow one's character to the

extent of being a seamless flow from the inner spring

of this awareness, maybe that is the true path.

 

I am reminded of the "village Idiot" idea.

Life is blissful and obviously simple without either

the ego or the mind taking too much control of our actions.

 

Interesting discussion, thank you!

 

Peace!

[Otis]

In my exploration of flow states, I've noticed my consciousness shifting through three distinct realms, in descending order of ease:

 

1. Presence/mindfulness: I am aware of what is going on, but without labeling actions or emotions. The present moment feels immediate and perfect, and no story arises about it.

 

2. Mindlessness/"driving mind": My thoughts are totally somewhere else, but my body continues on in the flow, without "me". When I "awake" back into the present moment, I actually tend to knock myself out of the flow, perhaps because my consciousness shift has changed what part of my brain is in charge.

 

3. Self-consciousness: when I am dancing, the easiest way to knock myself out of flow, is to see (or imagine I'm seeing) someone else watching me. Suddenly, I am trying to see myself, from their point of view. I feel myself trying to manage their perception of me, by being "cool" or whatever.

 

... and then there are some hybrid states, in which I am mostly present, but with some intrusion of "how, what, whom".

 

I've had a crush on a new girl at dance lately, and so I've spent a lot more time lately, in self-consciousness, at the very place where I'm usually able to shed it the most. Having a pretty girl around tends to adrenalize my performance, so that I'm more active and alert, but in general, trying to fulfill some adjective kills my flow. > > >

 

One of the skills I've been trying to learn, is to allow the "how am I seen?" (or even "what am I doing?") thoughts to arise, in the middle of flow, but not be distracted by them, just tune back in to my awareness of the present.

[dawei]

Otis,

 

Great topic and sharing.

 

Sartre corrected Descartes famous word by saying, we are a "thinking thing" (Descartes: "I think, therefore I am"). It is not that thinking makes us exist; thinking means we think! The KISS principle at it's best

 

But drop the thinking issues. Go with the flow.

[doc benway]

For me, self-awareness has a quality of acceptance whereas self-consciousness has a quality of judgement.

When I am self-conscious, there is a quality of anxiety, being concerned with approval, or meeting some expectations.

Self-awareness, on the other hand, has a loving quality, one of observation without expectation, just for the sake of understanding.

 

I really like Zhuang Zi's parable on self-consciousness:

 

When an archer is shooting for nothing he has all his skill.

If he shoots for a brass buckle he is already nervous.

If he shoots for a prize of gold

he goes blind

or sees two targets

- he is out of his mind!

 

His skill has not changed. But the prize

divides him. He cares.

He thinks more of winning than of shooting

and the need to win

drains him of power.

 

- Zhuang Zi

 

 

When shooting for nothing, we are self-aware but not self-conscious.

When a prize or a purpose arises, we suddenly are judging - is my shooting good enough? What if I lose? What if I win?

And so on...

 

I have been hampered by self-consciousness in the past. And it crops up periodically.

I think that some of the surrendering has to do with letting go of concerns about the approval and expectations of others.

 

This is why the attractive woman has the effect that she does.

You care about her approval.

 

We are all addicted to the approval of others.

Learning to let it go is very liberating.

[Marblehead]

...

But the prize

divides him. He cares.

He thinks more of winning than of shooting

and the need to win

drains him of power.

 

- Zhuang Zi

 

 

A very, very, very important lesson!!!!!

[Otis]

I used to get self-conscious even when alone, farting or picking my nose, and feeling shy about it, as if God or mom or the woman I liked, could somehow see me.

 

I started thinking of it as "the invisible observer" - this sense that I was being watched. I never actually believed there was someone there, but I often acted as if they were. Maybe this is what Freud thought of as the super-ego, an internalized parent presence, that is there to shame us, when the actual parent can't be around.

 

I've felt myself drawn to practicing in public, over the last several years. I do contact staff at the beach, and I was able to keep my self-consciousness at bay, by rationalizing that others would think that I was doing something "legitimate", as opposed to goofing off and dancing, which is closer to what my internal activity was.

 

While playing with my staff, I would sometimes notice people who seemed to be watching me, and I would notice my head starting to spin stories about how I needed to be good or impressive or something. And immediately, the staff would become a stranger to me, dropping to the ground, or even smashing me in the face.

 

After practicing for awhile, I realized that my sense of other people judging me, was identical to the sense of the "invisible observer". IME, it is the same function, doing both acts. I believed that it was other people who were judging, but of course, I didn't have access to the inside of their heads. A huge part of what "other people" has meant to me (as a chronically self-conscious person) was really my own inner judge, my invisible observer, being projected on to my model of these others. So I learned to fear and distrust others, based largely upon what my own paranoia was doing.

 

In my early 40's, I am still trying to wake up from my previous model of "other people", which was hugely contaminated with my wishes and fears. So far, I don't have a new model of "other people" to replace it, which leaves a conspicuous and, at times, uncomfortable gap in my connection with the social world.

 

Continued below...

Edited June 25, 2011 by Otis

[Otis]

While in the midst of a crush on this new girl, I see all my old "other people" habits rushing back in: stories whipping up about how she feels, what her (re)actions meant. I have been seeking to surrender the stories (particularly the ones which make me feel special, because they're the most tempting ones), but it leaves a vacuum, that my desire wants to fill with dualistic stories (either she likes me or she doesn't), in order to allow me to make a decision, and control my reality better.

 

The truth is: I don't know how she feels. Even if she tells me, I will only know "what she said she feels". And how she feels will change, possibly from moment to moment.

 

So I am trying to allow this situation to be practice of remaining empty to stories, and yet to stay present to possibility. It's humbling, but useful, to be like a child again, toward someone else; to be vulnerable, and yet not take offense.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Otis

[suninmyeyes]

Sartre famously said: "Self-Consciousness is hell."

 

Personally, I find that nothing crashes me out of flow, like becoming self-conscious. It is an echo chamber, filled with noise and illusions.

 

What about you? Where does self-awareness end and self-consciousness begin? How does the Eastern concept of self/ego relate to the Western concept of self-consciousness? Is it a separate form of consciousness, with its own perceptions, memories, and fears? Have you felt imprisoned or immobilized by it? If you have been able to surrender some of your self-consciousness, how did you do it? Is there such a thing as a useful amount?

 

From Wikipedia:

For me self awarness is a background and self consciousness arises like a wrong tune making me feel as if I dance wearing an iron suit.

Being fed up has been a great motivator in my life.Once discomfort is noticed for what it is and I start being fed up with self counsciousness -it goes away.Fed uppnes is a powerful force and if used properly mixed the more constructive thoughts it can cause transformation fast.

To answer your question I suppose there is a useful amaount as it is an indicator(a sort of alarm system) of common sense and of what is sociable acceptable.

 

Anyway good luck with the girl you wrote about

[manitou]

I'd have to go back to Steve's idea of judgment. If we feel that we are being judged, it's because we are judging others. The trick to not feeling judged is to stop judging. Even the nazarene said something like that - judge not, lest ye be judged, something to that effect? This goes directly to that inner dialog that is streaming by at any given moment, our thoughts and reactions to people shaping the person we are.

 

I do something here in Ohio that is just awful to people passing by - I pick up 'pretty' road kill, scoop it up in my arms, and take it over to a natural area where buzzards and other animals can put it back into the chain of life. I set it down and apologize to it (for us humans going way too fast for their pace of life). I just KNOW that people gasp in horror as they pass by - but the trick is not to look at them. Just get into the One and do it. Kind of like the ostrich hiding his head in the sand, but it works. This action keeps me on intimate terms with death, which is where I need to be for what I do.

[Otis]

For me self awarness is a background and self consciousness arises like a wrong tune making me feel as if I dance wearing an iron suit.

Being fed up has been a great motivator in my life.Once discomfort is noticed for what it is and I start being fed up with self counsciousness -it goes away.Fed uppnes is a powerful force and if used properly mixed the more constructive thoughts it can cause transformation fast.

To answer your question I suppose there is a useful amaount as it is an indicator(a sort of alarm system) of common sense and of what is sociable acceptable.

 

Anyway good luck with the girl you wrote about

Very much agreed on the feelings of the "wrong tune" and "iron suit".

 

Likewise on "fed-upness". That's fueling a lot of change for me this year, as well.

 

Being attracted to a new woman helps to shake me up, as well, get a fresh look at my habits, see some things I've been clinging to.

 

To answer your question I suppose there is a useful amaount as it is an indicator(a sort of alarm system) of common sense and of what is sociable acceptable.

Good point. I think a lot of the "negative" mental states, like guilt, jealousy, shame, etc. are really just alarm systems, designed to focus my attention, but which get overly loud, or have too many false positives. I mentioned that self-consciousness feels like an echo chamber, and it's in that repetition and noisiness of the alarm, that it ends up keeping me from being into flow.

[Otis]

I'd have to go back to Steve's idea of judgment. If we feel that we are being judged, it's because we are judging others. The trick to not feeling judged is to stop judging. Even the nazarene said something like that - judge not, lest ye be judged, something to that effect? This goes directly to that inner dialog that is streaming by at any given moment, our thoughts and reactions to people shaping the person we are.

I agree with you, Steve, and the Nazarene. The more I practice not judging others, the easier it gets to surrender my fear of judgment.

 

I do think it's a deep issue for me (both the judgment and the fear of it), so it takes a whole lot of practice. Of course, practice being "Bubblicious" or "the Clumsy Old Man" also helps!

 

I do something here in Ohio that is just awful to people passing by - I pick up 'pretty' road kill, scoop it up in my arms, and take it over to a natural area where buzzards and other animals can put it back into the chain of life. I set it down and apologize to it (for us humans going way too fast for their pace of life). I just KNOW that people gasp in horror as they pass by - but the trick is not to look at them. Just get into the One and do it. Kind of like the ostrich hiding his head in the sand, but it works. This action keeps me on intimate terms with death, which is where I need to be for what I do.

That sounds like a great practice, Manitou. Kudos on being able to surrender the need to conform to others' judgment.

[doc benway]

I used to get self-conscious even when alone, farting or picking my nose, and feeling shy about it, as if God or mom or the woman I liked, could somehow see me.

 

I started thinking of it as "the invisible observer" - this sense that I was being watched. I never actually believed there was someone there, but I often acted as if they were. Maybe this is what Freud thought of as the super-ego, an internalized parent presence, that is there to shame us, when the actual parent can't be around.

 

I've felt myself drawn to practicing in public, over the last several years. I do contact staff at the beach, and I was able to keep my self-consciousness at bay, by rationalizing that others would think that I was doing something "legitimate", as opposed to goofing off and dancing, which is closer to what my internal activity was.

 

While playing with my staff, I would sometimes notice people who seemed to be watching me, and I would notice my head starting to spin stories about how I needed to be good or impressive or something. And immediately, the staff would become a stranger to me, dropping to the ground, or even smashing me in the face.

 

After practicing for awhile, I realized that my sense of other people judging me, was identical to the sense of the "invisible observer". IME, it is the same function, doing both acts. I believed that it was other people who were judging, but of course, I didn't have access to the inside of their heads. A huge part of what "other people" has meant to me (as a chronically self-conscious person) was really my own inner judge, my invisible observer, being projected on to my model of these others. So I learned to fear and distrust others, based largely upon what my own paranoia was doing.

 

In my early 40's, I am still trying to wake up from my previous model of "other people", which was hugely contaminated with my wishes and fears. So far, I don't have a new model of "other people" to replace it, which leaves a conspicuous and, at times, uncomfortable gap in my connection with the social world.

 

Continued below...

I think that the watcher, or the judge if you will, is the sum total of generations of social and cultural conditioning combined with our unique life experience. We have this complex image we have created that is all about what is ok and what is not ok and its completely entangled with our addiction to approval. Then this thought crops up and usurps the role of authority and comments on what we're doing or thinking or feeling. We then project this onto other people whose thoughts, as you pointed out, can never be known to us. And we project it onto the universe or our concept of god so that we get a little uncomfortable even scratching our asses in private. It's a long but liberating road to work through this stuff and deconstruct it. And just like modern science finds experimentally when it looks at matter, and the mystics find analytically and experientially working in the mind and body, as you begin to peel away the layers, it proves to be completely empty.

 

Now I do think that a certain degree of social convention is valuable. It allows us to interact more peacefully and coexist with our disparate habits and ideas. But I think it's important to see it for what it is, a tool or a convention that has a specific and limited value.

 

I spent last week visiting my family in Florida and was out on the beach every morning practicing - some sitting, standing, taiji, and some other stuff. And it was very interesting to pay attention to how my awareness would jump to other people as they noticed me. And how I was projecting all sorts of things onto them and how it would affect my practice, and how different it is when a pretty girl walks by vs a tough looking guy and so forth... All very informative.

[Otis]

I think that the watcher, or the judge if you will, is the sum total of generations of social and cultural conditioning combined with our unique life experience. We have this complex image we have created that is all about what is ok and what is not ok and its completely entangled with our addiction to approval. Then this thought crops up and usurps the role of authority and comments on what we're doing or thinking or feeling. We then project this onto other people whose thoughts, as you pointed out, can never be known to us. And we project it onto the universe or our concept of god so that we get a little uncomfortable even scratching our asses in private. It's a long but liberating road to work through this stuff and deconstruct it. And just like modern science finds experimentally when it looks at matter, and the mystics find analytically and experientially working in the mind and body, as you begin to peel away the layers, it proves to be completely empty.

 

Now I do think that a certain degree of social convention is valuable. It allows us to interact more peacefully and coexist with our disparate habits and ideas. But I think it's important to see it for what it is, a tool or a convention that has a specific and limited value.

 

I spent last week visiting my family in Florida and was out on the beach every morning practicing - some sitting, standing, taiji, and some other stuff. And it was very interesting to pay attention to how my awareness would jump to other people as they noticed me. And how I was projecting all sorts of things onto them and how it would affect my practice, and how different it is when a pretty girl walks by vs a tough looking guy and so forth... All very informative.

Good stuff, Steve.

 

Yeah, I think there's a purpose for social mores, like not picking my nose in public. But woe betide, if I think I'm never supposed to pick my nose at all (which, honestly, was one belief trap I fell into), and thus go around with a chronically clogged nose!

 

The big problem that I see, is that children are taught dualistically, because adults don't think they can handle subtlety or contextual decision-making. And of course, kids aren't born with those abilities, but neither will they learn them, by being taught convenient lies!

[doc benway]

 

The big problem that I see, is that children are taught dualistically, because adults don't think they can handle subtlety or contextual decision-making. And of course, kids aren't born with those abilities, but neither will they learn them, by being taught convenient lies!

Kids deserve a lot more credit and respect than they are given - emotionally, intellectually, and psychologically.

They are a great resource for learning to the extent that they remain unspoiled by adult delusions.

[Otis]

Kids deserve a lot more credit and respect than they are given - emotionally, intellectually, and psychologically.

They are a great resource for learning to the extent that they remain unspoiled by adult delusions.

+1