Indian vs Chinese Metaphysics

[ShaktiMama]

[Enishi]

My gut tells me that Prana = Chi and Shakti/Kundalini = Jing/Ming.

 

I don't have enough experience to know for sure though. :\

Edited June 26, 2011 by Enishi

[ChiDragon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

[Vajrahridaya]

My gut tells me that Prana = Chi and Shakti/Kundalini = Jing/Ming.

 

I don't have enough experience to know for sure though. :\

 

Kundalini transforms to become I would think is synonymous with shen level awareness as it raises up the shashumna nadi from the base level of Jing. Either that or it's all three coming together, which might be more likely what it is, Jing, Qi and Shen coming together in the shashumna nadi transforming and purifying each other?

[ChiDragon]

If we are talking about the term Chi in Chi Kung, let's stay within the definitions of Chi Kung and keep the other definitions away to avoid confusion.

 

In Chi Kung, Chi means breathing. The dan tian, here, was referring to the "one down and beneath the navel (low dantian)."

 

Have the Chi sink to the dan tian which means take a deep breath by sending it down the the low dantian(the abdomen). Under this condition, your abdomen is fully expanded which causing the diaphragm to be flattened allowing the lungs to hold more air. That's what it means but nothing else.

 

 

PS...

Dantian is only a location of the body. It is not a part of the body.

Edited June 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Non]

My gut tells me that Prana = Chi and Shakti/Kundalini = Jing/Ming.

 

I don't have enough experience to know for sure though. :\

 

dan-tien is kundalini

[Creation]

Kundalini transforms to become I would think is synonymous with shen level awareness as it raises up the shashumna nadi from the base level of Jing. Either that or it's all three coming together, which might be more likely what it is, Jing, Qi and Shen coming together in the shashumna nadi transforming and purifying each other?

Ah, this is one of those things that you don't see talked nearly as much as it deserves: a "substance" which is a fusion of jing, qi, and shen. Actually, I haven't seen this discussed on any internet forum ever. Yet I recall at least one of the alchemical classics Thomas Cleary translated defining the dan "elixer" as such a thing.

 

Tigle "drops" in Vajrayana are things of this sort, no? I once read that the use of the term "dan tian", meaning field of cinnabar (a red mineral), comes from the red color of the innermost chamber that the thing being named. This reminds me of the red drop at the navel that Buddhist Tantras emphasize so much.

 

But the devil in all these things is in the details. It is simple enough to see two things seem analogous, but upon digging deeper there are so many details that are different. In the above case, one notices that very rarely do modern discussions of dan tian mention this red color. The only practitioner I have seen mention this is Hagar from this forum. The dan tian is a big complicated multi-function thing, and most schools don't talk about that original "red" aspect of it anymore. Why is that?

 

I think that the only way the science of cultivation can progress is by sorting all these differing details.

 

What, if anything, is the use of progressing the science of cultivation is a different question.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Creation

[deci belle]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Kundalini is mostly used interchangeably with The Holy Spirit, since it can come out of nowhere, more or less, and open you up to spiritual realities about life and self that require something from another plane to explain to you in an experiential communication.

 

Is The Holy Spirit: Jing, Chi, or Shen? If I had to guess, I would say all three are interacting but there is something more cosmic driving the bus when you ride with Kundalini... or, so I understood from explanations received.

[Birch]

Kundalini is mostly used interchangeably with The Holy Spirit, since it can come out of nowhere, more or less, and open you up to spiritual realities about life and self that require something from another plane to explain to you in an experiential communication.

 

Is The Holy Spirit: Jing, Chi, or Shen? If I had to guess, I would say all three are interacting but there is something more cosmic driving the bus when you ride with Kundalini... or, so I understood from explanations received.

 

There's always something cosmic driving the bus :-) It's when the passengers start telling each other how to drive from the back seat that it gets dangerous (IMO). So then the roads get worse until you wake up and listen. Or something to that effect.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There's always something cosmic driving the bus :-)

 

There is, but it's like most people are not conscious of this "bus ride," like they got on, fall asleep, and then "wake me up when it's over."

[Dagon]

I see it as Jing = Kundalini spirit,

 

and (lower)Dan Tien = Navel Chakra.

 

and (upper)Dan Tien = Heart/Solar plexus chakras.

 

Not sure about the chinese version of the third eye?

Edited June 27, 2011 by Dagon

[Vajrahridaya]

Is The Holy Spirit: Jing, Chi, or Shen? If I had to guess, I would say all three are interacting but there is something more cosmic driving the bus when you ride with Kundalini... or, so I understood from explanations received.

 

It's just your karmas as well as unseen lineage deities, which can seem cosmic to the little "me" as your karmic connections run deep, as that's what you are, your inter-connections on so many levels.

 

It's basically all your hidden stuff coming to the light of awareness, and lineage can act as a buffer, taking care of things beneath your awareness for you. If a person is connected to a lineage, and a person might be unconsciously so if not consciously so.

[Vajrahridaya]

There is, but it's like most people are not conscious of this "bus ride," like they got on, fall asleep, and then "wake me up when it's over."

 

That's kind of what I mean by my last post.

 

I've woken up in that state between dream and wakefulness and I sometimes see beings with their arms in my body moving things.

[Dagon]

ummm... did you really mean to say upper dan tien = heart?

 

 

 

Ah, I guess it would be middle Dan Tien and upper would be third eye, thanks for clearing the confusion.

 

I guess there could be a subtle difference between a Chakra and Dan Tien, but the focus area's seem to remain the same. Like the correlating chakra is as a gateway to that aspect of being.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Dagon

[ShaktiMama]

If we are talking about the term Chi in Chi Kung, let's stay within the definitions of Chi Kung and keep the other definitions away to avoid confusion.

 

In Chi Kung, Chi means breathing. The dan tian, here, was referring to the "one down and beneath the navel (low dantian)."

 

Have the Chi sink to the dan tian which means take a deep breath by sending it down the the low dantian(the abdomen). Under this condition, your abdomen is fully expanded which causing the diaphragm to be flattened allowing the lungs to hold more air. That's what it means but nothing else.

 

 

PS...

Dantian is only a location of the body. It is not a part of the body.

 

 

my understanding from my teachers is that one definition of chi is breath not breathing. The oldest ideo grams show the character of 3 straight horizontal lines, one above the other.

 

The idea is as the mist rises from the ground as the moisture evaporates in the sun. The mist rises and finally evaporates into the sky under the sun's heat. During the night, the molecules condense and fall back to earth as moisture. The cycle then begins again.

 

As the earth exhales chi rises. If one stands outside at right before sun rise one can feel the earth exhale as the earth begins to shift from yin to yang.

 

On another level it shows the alchemical process of transformation from solid (material) to gas (immaterial). This mirrors the process of the human body as a crucible for transformation.

 

So having the chi sink to the lower dan tien is a way of lowering energy to the cauldron of transformation that exist there.

 

*The lower Cinnabar Field*

 

The Cinnabar Field is the root of the human being. It is the place where essence and spirit are stored, the origin of the five breaths (wuqi), and the Storehouse of the Red Child (chizi zhi fu). Men store in it their semen, and women their menstrual blood. It rules on generating children and is the gate of the joining of Yin and Yang. It is three inches below the navel, attached to the Caudal Funnel (weilü), (*) and is the root of the two kidneys. Within the Cinnabar Field the center is red, the left is green, the right is yellow, above is white, and below is black. It is within a space that measures four inches, square (like Earth) and round (like Heaven). (**)

http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/texts_laozi_zhongjing.html

 

Each of the Dan Tiens are cauldrons of alchemical transformation.

 

For each Dan Tien there are three levels of understanding...that of jing, chi, and shen. All must be considered to attain full understanding.

 

chi as breath and in greek as pneuma which is also considered spirit...something to think on...for a lifetime.

 

s

Edited June 29, 2011 by ShaktiMama

[Dagon]

[ShaktiMama]

My gut tells me that Prana = Chi and Shakti/Kundalini = Jing/Ming.

 

I don't have enough experience to know for sure though. :\

 

 

it can be difficult to exactly map but prana and chi are pretty much the same. There are different kinds of prana and different kinds of chi (i learned about 18 different kinds of chi).

 

I think kundalini is more involved with the ming men and the extraordinary channels too. Definately jing is involved. woohoo!

 

[ShaktiMama]

dan-tien is kundalini

 

dan tien is a container/location. kundalini is an energy.

[ShaktiMama]

Kundalini is mostly used interchangeably with The Holy Spirit, since it can come out of nowhere, more or less, and open you up to spiritual realities about life and self that require something from another plane to explain to you in an experiential communication.

 

Is The Holy Spirit: Jing, Chi, or Shen? If I had to guess, I would say all three are interacting but there is something more cosmic driving the bus when you ride with Kundalini... or, so I understood from explanations received.

 

 

According to Jerry Alan Johnson the Holy Spirit is analagous to Ling Shen which eminates out of the Tao. It also referred to as Shen Ling. It comes out of the Ten Thousand Things.

[ShaktiMama]

I see it as Jing = Kundalini spirit,

 

and (lower)Dan Tien = Navel Chakra.

 

and (upper)Dan Tien = Heart/Solar plexus chakras.

 

Not sure about the chinese version of the third eye?

 

 

Remember each of the three Dan Tiens have three interconnected levels of understanding: jing, chi, and shen. Just realize that all concepts in practice have these three levels of understanding.

 

Might want to study up on the Lesser Kan and Li and the Greater Kan and Li. Why I have even heard mention of the Supreme Kan and Li.

 

It's all alchemy and working with the Three Treasures of Man.

 

s

[寒月 Hanyue]

ummm... did you really mean to say upper dan tien = heart?

 

Hi RV, Dagon,

 

Not all systems map things the same. There are some that say just this, upper DT = 'heart'/'solar plexus' area.

 

This is why i think people need direct experience guided by a good teacher who can pass on the teachings of THEIR lineage. Maps from other systems can be useful and interesting as a cross-reference for wider appreciation, but can also make people mis-trust their experience or mis-understanding their lineages teachings.

 

Just my threppence worth,

 

Best

[寒月 Hanyue]

First of all thank you to Shaktimamma for passing on Tao Semko's videos they are always superb and very informative.

 

I also concur with Shaktimamma. It is not easy to simply say qi=prana, there is no single qi or prana, so what is being compared? Although as generalised terms a simple assumption can be made.

 

There are several Chinese characters for qi that have been used through out history and have different meanings. Some are specific to cultivation practices and often found within Daoist texts, and in Daoist inscriptions and talismans.

 

Qi in Chinese medicine is understood as not one thing and has its variations. Additionally the 'qi' discussed in TCM is NOT the same as the 'qi' discussed in older Daoists texts. The teachings that make most sense to me, explain that what the Daoists mean by 'qi' is actually the 真氣 (zhenqi) genuine/real qi. This is not the qi of the meridians that acupuncture and certainly TCM typically work with. Zhenqi is often equated with shakti/kundalini.

 

My feeling is also the same, that the eight extra vessels (mingmen (also highly emphasised in Japanese traditions)) are more related to "shakti" and "kundalini" then the acupuncture meridians. This emphasis rather than on the central channel is what leads to the differences in methods and experiences.

 

Best,

 

The attached jpeg shows the development of the 'qi' character from the 甲骨文 Jiaguwen (bone oracle script), to an elaboration with a more specific Heaven and Earth depiction, to 小篆 Xiaozhuan (small seal of the Qin Dynasty), to the 楷书 Kaishu (regular script) and the inclusion of the 'rice' character. There are also two characters that are used within cultivation texts as well.