[TTC Study] Chapter 45 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 45

 

 

John Wu

 

The greatest perfection seems imperfect,

And yet its use is inexhaustible.

The greatest fullness seems empty,

And yet its use is endless.

The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

The greatest skill appears clumsy.

The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

Restlessness overcomes cold,

But calm overcomes heat.

The peaceful and serene

Is the Norm of the World.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Great accomplishment seems imperfect,

Yet it does not outlive its usefulness.

Great fullness seems empty,

Yet cannot be exhausted.

Great straightness seems twisted.

Great intelligence seems stupid.

Great eloquence seems awkward.

Movement overcomes cold.

Stillness overcomes heat.

Stillness and tranquillity set things in order in the universe.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Great completion seems incomplete;

Yet its usefulness is never exhausted.

Great fullness seems to be empty;

Yet its usefulness is never used up.

Great straightness seems to be bent.

Great skill seems to be clumsy.

Great surplus seems to stammer.

Activity overcomes cold;

Tranquility overcomes heat.

If you're quiet and tranquil you can become the ruler of the world.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 45 Serenity and Calmness are the norms

Translation in terse English:

1. Most perfection seems lacking,

2. Its function is endless.

3. Most reality seems vacuous,

4. Its function is inexhaustible.

5. Most straightness seems crooked,

6. Most skillful seems inept.

7. Most eloquence seems stuttered.

8. Calmness beats testy.

9. Coldness beats heat.

10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.

 

1. 大成若缺，

2. 其用不弊。

3. 大盈若沖，

4. 其用不窮。

5. 大直若屈。

6. 大巧若拙。

7. 大辯若訥。

8. 靜勝躁，

9. 寒勝熱。

10.清靜為天下正。

[Marblehead]

10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.

 

Acceptable translation.

 

I think line 10 is such a very important statement of fact. Of course, I like 'peace & contentment' (hehehe) but the idea is the same.

 

And I do agree that this is a valid statement. Just look at the very young before they get filled with all sorts of biases and opinions. It is so easy for them to find this serenity and calmness when their basic needs are satisfied.

[ChiDragon]

Here is my understanding of the paradox in the first seven lines.

1. Most perfection seems lacking,

2. Its function is endless.

3. Most reality seems vacuous,

4. Its function is inexhaustible.

5. Most straightness seems crooked,

6. Most skillful seems inept.

7. Most eloquence seems stuttered.

 

They were saying:

Even you are most perfect, and skillful but don't display these fine qualities. Just show the opposite to avoid envious conflicts from challenging individuals. In other words, do not glorify yourself and always display yourself in a humble manner. Hence, this will help you to go a long way.

 

8. Calmness beats testy.

9. Coldness beats heat.

10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.

 

These three lines are suggesting that one should stay calm, at all times, so one won't be deceived by the fallacies in any adverse situation. Indeed, one had won half of the battle already.

Edited June 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[stan herman]

Here is my understanding of the paradox in the first seven lines.

1. Most perfection seems lacking,

2. Its function is endless.

3. Most reality seems vacuous,

4. Its function is inexhaustible.

5. Most straightness seems crooked,

6. Most skillful seems inept.

7. Most eloquence seems stuttered.

 

They were saying:

Even you are most perfect, and skillful but don't display these fine qualities. Just show the opposite to avoid envious conflicts from challenging individuals. In other words, do not glorify yourself and always display yourself in a humble manner. Hence, this will help you to go a long way.

 

8. Calmness beats testy.

9. Coldness beats heat.

10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.

 

These three lines are suggesting that one should stay calm, at all times, so one won't be deceived by the fallacies in any adverse situation. Indeed, one had won half of the battle already.

 

I find this verse difficult to swallow. The English/Fen seems closest to digestible, but my impression is it is speaking about the ordinary man's perception of Tao, and contrasting that with an enlightened understanding e.g. in line 6, the ordinary man would think Taoist wisdom to be stupid.

 

English/Feng

 

Great accomplishment seems imperfect,

Yet it does not outlive its usefulness.

Great fullness seems empty,

Yet cannot be exhausted.

Great straightness seems twisted.

Great intelligence seems stupid.

Great eloquence seems awkward.

Movement overcomes cold.

Stillness overcomes heat.

Stillness and tranquillity set things in order in the universe.

 

My interpretation may be something of a stretch, but I don't think it's inconsistent with Lao Tzu's message

 

45. Great performances invariably decline. Great monuments eventually decay. Great accomplishments are always surpassed. All that is achieved invites its own eclipse.

 

As long as life continues there is more to be or do. Thus, the perfect being unattainable, why rush to reach it? When tired, rest. When rested, act. These are the guidelines of a suitable life.

[Marblehead]

Well, Darn!!! I agree with both of you.

 

Good observations Y'all!

[ChiDragon]

Thanks Y'all for your open mindedness.

Let's give line 6 an impartial evaluation with a scholastic approach.

 

6. 大巧若拙。

6. da4 qiao3 ruo4 zhuo2

 

Definitions from Etymology.

Ref Link: 巧(qiao3)

1. 巧(qiao3): clever; witty; ingenious; artful; skillful; a clever feat; a stunt; pretty; cute; coincidence; coincidental; coincidentally; opportune

 

Ref Link: 若（ruo4）

2. 若（ruo4）：　similar to； like；

 

Ref Link: 拙（zhuo2）

3. 拙（zhuo2）：　stupid； crude； poor(works, etc.)； slow and clumsy； a conventional term referring to oneself

 

 

All the tentative translations:

a. The greatest skill appears clumsy.

b. Great intelligence seems stupid.

c. Great skill seems to be clumsy.

d. Most skillful seems inept.

 

By our reference, line 6 did not mention a notion about "intelligence" directly. Indeed, the majority use the word "skill" for translation.

 

All these statements are superficial and paradoxical. Since we are dealing with classic text, a further interpretation was required. Let's look at c and d; they seem to be the closest translation. They are really saying:

 

The most skillful person should act like that he is incapable of what he is good at.

Edited June 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

All the tentative translations:

a. The greatest skill appears clumsy.

b. Great intelligence seems stupid.

c. Great skill seems to be clumsy.

d. Most skillful seems inept.

 

By our reference, line 6 did not mention a notion about "intelligence" directly. Indeed, the majority use the word "skill" for translation.

 

All these statements are superficial and paradoxical. Since we are dealing with classic text, a further interpretation was required. Let's look at c and d; they seem to be the closest translation. They are really saying:

 

The most skillful person should act like that he is incapable of what he is good at.

The problem I see is that your three lines are not parallel in degree of the object, which the other translations seem to keep in mind. Wu as an example:

The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

The greatest skill appears clumsy.

The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

 

Crookedness, clumsy and stammering are degrees away from the greatest.

 

If you say "skillful seems inept" that is not a degree away; it is essentially the opposite. These three lines are not about opposites. So I think you may want to consider more than just a single line; look at the structure and flow and symmetry to other lines to understand what is conveyed.

Edited June 30, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

[dawei]

This chapter is one where the Guodian manuscript exists so we can also know what was written prior to the older version used by Hendricks. But there appears are so many issues in this chapter and it starts with the first sentence (first two lines of those shown above). The Guodian ends the first line with 幣 (money, currency, silk, presents) and the Mawangdui as well, yet Hendricks translates as if looking at the more recent versions which use 弊 (incomplete, lacking).

 

The next oldest version (Fu Yi, which is in between what Hendrick used and what most use) even had a different character: 敝 , which is very close in meaning to the Wang Bi; so we can now see the first change occurred with the third oldest manuscripts. The word used for ‘greatest perfection’ (Wu) also means success or prosperity and contrasts with ‘lacking’. So an original meaning of value or worth may be a consideration.

 

Line 1 Compared for last word oldest to most recent:

 

大成若缺其用不幣 - Goudian

大成若缺亓用不幣 - Mawangdui A

大成若缺其用不敝 - FuYi

大成若缺其用不弊 - Heshang Gong

大成若缺其用不弊 - Wang Bi

Great accomplishment seems imperfect -- Feng/English based on Wang Bi

 

 

Sentence two is really unchanged and is parallel to line 1. The next three are parallel to each other and originally all had the ending word with a 出 (chu) part to the character.

 

Line 5-7 Guodian endings compared:

5... 拙

6... 诎

7... 屈

 

The original Guodian order of the three is different than we see now. Once sync’ed up, you will see that Guodian Line 6 (or Wang Bi Line 7) was changed for two words and the meaning is completely different. Hendricks does an interesting job to show how the change occurred. He shows how the MWD-A is corruption of two lines of the Guodian then shows how eventually through next manuscripts one arrives at 訥 (stammer) and in order to create an opposite the second character was eventually changed to 辯 (eloquence). There seems to be an old justification that 成 is already in line 1, so being repeated here does not make sense. If these two sections are not originally one, then there is no reason to hunt for a reason for any change. There is no reason to change the last character since it breaks the parallel ending of the original; and no reason to change the second character after that is obvious enough.

 

Line 6 Guodian (Line 7 Wang Bi) Compared when sync’ed:

大成若诎 - Guodian

大贏如炳 - Mawangdui A

大辯若訥 - Fu Yi

大辯若訥- Hesheng Gong

大辯若訥 - Wang Bi

 

Hendricks translates the GD as:

Great gains seem to be losses

Great advances seem like retreats (alternate)

Edited June 30, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Much has been made of lines 8 and 9, to alter them, but the arguments are too weak. Even Wing-tsit Chang discusses it in his commentary and points out a strong advocate is Chiang Hsi-ch’ang. I cannot think of a single author I frequently read which follows the alter variation. An interesting issue is that on the bamboo slips themselves is an ‘end marker’ AFTER line 7 and then at the very end; implying that lines 8 and onward are not a part of the previous section (lines 1-6). So this may be two sections on the bamboo which later editors put together as one chapter. Another support for this is, as Hendricks points out, that the original ending of 8,9,10 (and opening word of 10) essentially rhythm. So there is good reason for this as an unaltered unit.

 

The only other line I will comment on is the last line since it also has two characters changed from the Guodian. Of note is that the Guodian starts off with the same character (pure or clear) repeated but later manuscripts changed the second character to more like ‘stillness or calmness’. The original opening is “clear-clear or pure-pure”; ergo, ‘clarity or purity’.

 

Also the last character was changed:

 

定 - to set / to fix / to determine / to decide / to order

正 - just (right) / main / upright / straight / correct / positive / greater than zero / principle

 

Line 10 compared:

清清可以为天下定

清靜------為天下正

 

It is interesting to note that those who translate with "order" or "ruler" are actually breaking from their Wang Bi translation to let the original Goudian meaning be used.

 

A number of translators end with the idea like Hendricks: a 'guide' (Yutang) or 'ruler' (Chan) or 'govern' (Hinton) or 'leader' (Zhengkun). The ending of Wu with "norm" just seems out of place; it is not the norm of the world, universe, or people to be of stillness or purity. The original makes more structural sense and many actually follow it's basic meaning despite the Wang Bi version they start with.

Edited June 30, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

1. The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

2. The greatest skill appears clumsy.

3. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

 

These statements seem illogical. I see that they were not translated in accordance with the character 若（ruo4）.

 

I don't see any of the lines that says this "looks, appears or sounds".

5. 大直若屈

6. 大巧若拙

7. 大辯若訥

 

1. "The greatest straightness looks like crookedness."

The straightness only can be seen by illusion to make it seem like the crookedness.

 

2. The greatest skill appears clumsy.

How can a skill job appears to be clumsy...???

 

3. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

How can an eloquent speaker sounds line stammering...???

Edited June 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

[Marblehead]

Well, as the Goudian strips have been mentioned I will offer Henricks' translation of the Chapter:

 

 

(B:7) Chapter 45

 

1 What is most perfect seems somehow defective;

2 Yet you can use it, and it never wears out.

3 What is most full seems to be empty;

4 Yet you can use it, and it never runs dry.

 

5 Great skill seems to be clumsy;

6 Great gain seems to be losses;

7 Great straightness seems to be bent.

 

______________________________

8/1 Activity overcomes cold;

9/2 Tranquility overcomes heat.

10/3 Pure and tranquil, you can stabilize the whole world.

 

(Lines 8 - 10 seem to be understood as a separate saying.)

[dawei]

1. The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

2. The greatest skill appears clumsy.

3. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

 

These statements seem illogical. I see that they were not translated in accordance with the character 若（ruo4）.

 

I don't see any of the lines that says this "looks, appears or sounds".

5. 大直若屈

6. 大巧若拙

7. 大辯若訥

 

1. "The greatest straightness looks like crookedness."

The straightness only can be seen by illusion to make it seem like the crookedness.

 

2. The greatest skill appears clumsy.

How can a skill job appears to be clumsy...???

 

3. The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

How can an eloquent speaker sounds line stammering...???

ChiD

Most straightness seems crooked,

Most skillful seems inept.

Most eloquence seems stuttered.

 

Vs

 

Wu

The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

The greatest skill appears clumsy.

The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

 

若 : to seem / similar to / like / as / if / suppose / supposing / assuming / provided that /

 

A shape seems = looks like

An action seems = appears

A sound seems = sounds like

 

How can a shape seem crooked? Because when you “look” at it, it “seems” crooked.

 

IMO, your translations says the same thing.

Edited June 30, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Well, as the Goudian strips have been mentioned I will offer Henricks' translation of the Chapter:

 

 

(B:7) Chapter 45

 

1 What is most perfect seems somehow defective;

2 Yet you can use it, and it never wears out.

3 What is most full seems to be empty;

4 Yet you can use it, and it never runs dry.

 

5 Great skill seems to be clumsy;

6 Great gain seems to be losses;

7 Great straightness seems to be bent.

 

______________________________

8/1 Activity overcomes cold;

9/2 Tranquility overcomes heat.

10/3 Pure and tranquil, you can stabilize the whole world.

 

(Lines 8 - 10 seem to be understood as a separate saying.)

Ref link:GD Version

45

1. 大成若缺，

2. 其用不币。

3. 大盈若中，

4. 其用不穷。

5. 大巧如拙，

6. 大成若诎，

7. 大植若屈。

------------------------

8/1 躁胜寒，(impetuous overcomes cold)

9/2 青胜然（热），<--- 然(ran2) was in error, 热(heat) was replaced.

10/3 清清可以为天下定。<---清清(pure pure or clear clear) makes no sense neither, 清靜(pure quietness) is more proper.

 

8/1 躁胜寒， was corrected by consensus because the logic did not make sense.

 

Illogical:

8/1 躁胜寒,(zao4 sheng4 han2)

8/1 Impetuous overcomes cold,

 

Consensus:

8/1 靜勝躁，(jing4 sheng4 zao4)

8/1 Calmness overcomes impetuous

This is more logical and makes more sense.

 

Ref link: Wang Bi Version

Received or Wang Bi Version 45

大成若缺，

其用不弊。

大盈若沖，

其用不窮。

大直若屈。

大巧若拙。

大辯若訥。

靜勝躁，

寒勝熱。

清靜為天下正。

Edited June 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

dawei...

Please make the following correction.

 

ChiD

Most straightness seems crooked,

Most skillful seems inept.

Most eloquence seems stuttered.

 

Vs

 

Wu

The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

The greatest skill appears clumsy.

The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

[dawei]

Good luck convincing people here that while the Guodian (300 B.C) down to Wang Bi (230) had no problem with lines 8 and 9, modern scholars find a problem; the ancients understood the 'natural way', which is the point of the lines, one of natural regulation. Modern scholars start changing words since they cannot understand something, and that is the problem; understanding. Wang Bi wrote enough about this chapter to show he got it and never thought to change anything.

 

These were not corrected by consensus but a few native scholars in modern times felt a word change was warranted. You can look at hundreds of translations and find almost no one follows this alteration. Let's at least be honest and open and not spread too much misinformation.

 

The "Wang Bi" version is technically exactly what Wang Bi used himself. Anything else is an variation on the Wang Bi.

 

The opening lines reflect that it is a 'sign' of greatness to seem/appear/look as if it were incomplete, empty, exhausted, crooked, clumsy, or blurting out. Why? When one follows the 'natural way', it looks to be lacking (doing nothing yet nothing is not done). Dao is empty yet always in use, etc.

 

IMO, the reason lines 8-10 were included to this chapter [by the earliest scholars] is because it is saying essentially the same thing; it is a picture of Yin returning to Yang and Yang returning to Yin; the natural course and regulation of life is shown:

8. Movement/activity gives way to/overcomes/contravenes/turns to Coldness (think as you move around, you balance the coldness in your body)

9. Calmness gives way to/overcomes/contravenes/turns to Hotness (same idea with the body; when hot, a calm spirit will cool you off).

10. Such purity establishes order [of things]/regulates [according to the nature of things]/ in all under heaven.

 

That is my take. Everyone is free to think for themselves.

Edited June 30, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

dawei...

Please make the following correction.

 

ChiD

Most straightness seems crooked,

Most skillful seems inept.

Most eloquence seems stuttered.

 

Vs

 

Wu

The greatest straightness looks like crookedness.

The greatest skill appears clumsy.

The greatest eloquence sounds like stammering.

Done

[stan herman]

Whew, this is not the place for me. Many words, much presumptive analysis. Little felt or applicable meaning. As a parting comment though, my estimate is that what makes the most sense is the verse is speaking about the ordinary man's perception of Tao, and contrasting that with an enlightened understanding. Good luck to you both in your competition.

[ChiDragon]

Whew, this is not the place for me. Many words, much presumptive analysis. Little felt or applicable meaning.

I'm with you, Stan.

[Marblehead]

I'm with you, Stan.

 

Well, I am still seriously trying to discuss the concepts within each of the chapters and will do so every chance I get.

 

I enjoy testing my understandings. If y'all don't talk with me all I can do is talk with myself and I'm not very critical of my own thinking so I really do appreciate it when I have someone around who might challenge my understandings.

 

Y'all keep talking, Okay?

[dawei]

Well, I am still seriously trying to discuss the concepts within each of the chapters and will do so every chance I get.

We have been studying and discussing for quite a while but now it's called presumptive analysis and a competition. We're also told non-natives can't understand it and a group of native scholars have change the text by consensus and we should be using that altered text. I don't see any discussion when sides are being drawn.

[ChiDragon]

We have been studying and discussing for quite a while but now it's called presumptive analysis and a competition. We're also told non-natives can't understand it and a group of native scholars have change the text by consensus and we should be using that altered text. I don't see any discussion when sides are being drawn.

I am not objected to any reasonable doubts. The problem with these so-called versions of the Tao Te Ching, to me, they are not different versions. They are not different versions because they are just copies of a misplaced original. These copies had changes made to fit the authors' taste. There are some characters were used more than two thousand years ago had different meanings than what they are now. Some of the copies used phonetics instead of the original characters. The present native scholars had followed the interpretations and commentaries from the past scholars and made corrections along with their studies and came up with a Received Version.

 

It was only reasonable for me to work with the Received Version by not assuming that all the other copies are correct as the way they stand. However, in my initial study, I have reasons to believe by using the Received Version as a baseline was a proper approach. When I am in doubt, I always go back to the different copies to determine why they were altered that way.

 

Some of the non-native attempted to interpret the Tao Te Ching based on the root of the characters instead of following the meanings that has evolved to get to the final definition. They had putted so much emphasis on one character to interpret the whole classic phrase instead of placing the characters into context to determine the overall meaning of the phrase. In addition, some of the interpreters, native and nonnative, made the same common mistake by using what they had learned in the past outside the Taoist philosophy and applied in their interpretations. Unfortunately, that will make them more remote in reaching the true meanings of the Tao Te Ching.

 

This is what I had sensed and how I felt. I always try to pay more attention to the issues being discussed but not the person who was making the presentation. My attitude toward the studying Tao Te Ching is:

 

"The possession of knowledge is not to demonstrate how much one knows. It is a matter of digestion and application. Ignoring the facts blurs the foreseeing intellectual focus. One with an open mind can behold a panorama blindfolded. Finally, the denial of the unwanted truth is a move toward the deprivation of learning."

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm still here and will remain so, if nature allows, until I have posted Chapter 81.

 

Of course, I have made it clear a number of times that my preferred translation is Henricks'. But after saying that, there are a few passages that I just don't accept for one reason or another.

 

We have already agreed that I am a practical person. If something is not practical I question it.

 

Doesn't matter to me how much we disagree with each other regarding certain passages. Discussion is good as long as we don't allow our disagreeing to become personal.