[TTC Study] Chapter 45 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead...

 

I already have taken mental note of where you stand and others. I think we are just thinking aloud whatever was in our minds.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead...

 

I think we are just thinking aloud whatever was in our minds.

 

That's good in a way. We get more critical responses.

[lienshan]

The Guodian chapter 45

 

大成若缺，其用不幣。

大盈若盅，其用不窮。

大巧若拙，

大呈若詘，

大直若屈。

燥勝凔，

清勝熱，

清清可以为天下定。

 

The great perfection is like a defect, it uses not giving presents.

The great fullness is like a depletion, it uses not dehydrating.

The great ability is like a hump.

The great posture is like a stoop.

The great straight one is like a crooked one.

Activity overcomes the cold.

Passivity overcomes the heat.

Clarity may be considered the healing of the world?

 

 

大一 The Great One is the subject of this chapter. Most clearly in the fifth line:

The number one character 一 is a straight line and is in the I Ching a steady (passive) line.

The number six character V is a crooked line and is in the I Ching a changing (active) line.

 

大一生水 The Great One gives birth to Water is the passive becoming the active.

It's the turning point in all "oneness" theories; the shift from singleness to the multitude?

Edited June 11, 2013 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

For comparison, here is Henricks' translation:

 

 

(B:7) Chapter 45

 

1 What is most perfect seems somehow defective;

2 Yet you can use it, and it never wears out.

3 What is most full seems to be empty;

4 Yet you can use it, and it never runs dry.

5 Great skill seems to be clumsy;

6 Great gain seems to be losses;

7 Great straightness seems to be bent.

______________________________

8/1 Activity overcomes cold;

9/2 Tranquility overcomes heat.

10/3 Pure and tranquil, you can stabilize the whole world.

(Lines 8 - 10 seem to be understood as a separate saying.)

 

 

So yes, we are talking about Tao here but I view it more at Te, that is, how Tao is applied and appears in real life.

 

I have no problem with your translation. It does speak well to the concepts presented.

[lienshan]

(Lines 8 - 10 seem to be understood as a separate saying.)

 

Is it Laozi's text that has a defect or is it Henrick's translation that has a defect?

 

Is it the world that that has a defect or is it the Great One theory that has a defect?

 

The defect occurs in line 1 and Laozi suggests a cure in line 10

[Marblehead]

I have, on a number of occassions, stated that there were more than just one concept being presented in each chapter. For me, this is true of this chapter.

 

I do see your point; I also see Henricks' point.

 

You both are right, just different.

[lienshan]

The great perfection is like a defect, it uses not giving presents.

The great fullness is like a depletion, it uses not dehydrating.

The great ability is like a hump.

The great erect posture is like a stoop.

The great straight one is like a crooked one.

Activity overcomes the cold.

Passivity overcomes the heat.

Can clear clearness be considered the healing of the world?

 

 

I read the lines in bold as connected, describing the defect and a possible cure?

The first of these four lines is quoted in Zhuangzi chapter 10:

 

If the hook and line were destroyed, the compass and square thrown away, and the fingers of men (like) the artful Khui smashed, all men would begin to possess and employ their (natural) skill - as it is said, 'The greatest art is like stupidity.' If conduct such as that of Zeng (Shen) and Shi (Qiu) were discarded, the mouths of Yang (Zhu) and Mo (Di) gagged, and benevolence and righteousness seized and thrown aside, the virtue of all men would begin to display its mysterious excellence. (James Legge translation)

 

Destroy- and cut to pieces the curve and plumb line, throw away the compass and square, shackle the fingers of Artisan Ch'ui, and for the first time the people of the world will possess real skill. Thus it is said, "Great skill is like clumsiness." Put a stop to the ways of Tseng and Shih, gag the mouths of Yang and Mo, wipe out and reject benevolence and righteousness, and for the first time the Virtue of the world will reach the state of Mysterious Leveling. (Burton Watson translation)

 

Crumble to smithereens the curve and plumb line and throw away the compass and T-square, smack the back of Chui's fingers with a ruler, and the people of the world would appreciate their own artistry.
There's an old saying:
"Great talent seems clumsy."
Wipe out all traces left by Zeng and Shi, gag the mouths of Yang and Mo, push away and discard benevolence and righteousness, and the virtues of the world would mysteriously mesh. (Nina Correa translation)

Edited June 12, 2013 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Okay. You have supported well your lines 1 - 5 (Equivalent to Henricks' Ma-wang-tui translation lines 1 - 8). I have no problem with them. And they are very compatible with Henricks' Guodian lines 1 - 7.

 

However, your line 8 differs significantly with the Ma-wang-tui line 11, and Guodian line 10.

 

Yes, I see why you have done this and yes, we have spoken of this before. But I still do not see a connection between the last three lines and the preceeding lines. Still in my mind there are two different concepts being presented. And I will still suggest that the last three lines were an after-thought addition to the original chapter writing. (Yes, I realize that this cannot be proven at this time.)

 

Anyhow, you've done well. Nice seeing you referring to The Chuang Tzu.

[lienshan]

The great challenge of reading/translating the Guodian chapter is to use five terms

which cannot be graduated by the adjective great. I've chosen:

 

perfection, fullness, ability, erect posture, straight one

 

perfection doesn't give presents = perfection has no surplus

fullness doesn't dehydrate = fullness has no shortage

 

What can be graduated is one's feeling of cold/heat by activity/passivity.

It's not the cold or the heat that's being graduated.

That's Laozi's commentary to the graduation of 大一 The Great One (the great straight one)

 

The last line is in the Guodian chapter formulated as a sarchastic question.

The doubled character can be read as either clarity or clear clearness?

[Marblehead]

What can be graduated is one's feeling of cold/heat by activity/passivity.

It's not the cold or the heat that's being graduated.

That's Laozi's commentary to the graduation of 大一 The Great One (the great straight one)

 

The last line is in the Guodian chapter formulated as a sarchastic question.

The doubled character can be read as either clarity or clear clearness?

Okay, I see why you linked the first part with the last three lines. I can't question your reasoning because I do not have the ability to test. You win. Hehehe.

[lienshan]

I can't question your reasoning because I do not have the ability to test.

 

To increase one's body temperature by activity and to decrease it by passivity is an ability.

An ability is ziran and cannot be graduated by the adjective great.

 

To read and translate classical chinese is a skill.

A skill isn't ziran and can be graduated by the adjective great.

 

This interpretation is ofcourse impossible to accept if one believe in the Great Tao

Edited June 12, 2013 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

To increase one's body temperature by activity and to decrease it by passivity is an ability.

An ability is ziran and cannot be graduated by the adjective great.

I have that skill.

 

To read and translate classical chinese is a skill.

A skill isn't ziran and can be graduated by the adjective great.

I do NOT have that skill.

 

This interpretation is ofcourse impossible to accept if one believe in the Great Tao

I believe in the Great Pumpkin. Does that count?

[Kajenx]

You know, this chapter always bugged me because it seemed out of character. Lao Tzu never talks about the sage as someone who cares about perfection, however it appears. "True perfection seems imperfect" and etc. strikes me as a very western idea. Looking at these various translations, I wonder if Lao Tzu is really warning that all these perfect things are unnatual and "not in keeping with the Tao."

 

1. Most perfection seems lacking,
2. Its function is endless.

 

Maybe perfection is lacking because it's endless.

 

The lines almost look like a manual for confusianism: Intelligence, skill, eloquence, acomplisment. Maybe Lao Tzu is saying, "Look at all these dificult things people worry about. Just be calm and still."

[ChiDragon]

I do NOT have that skill.

 

So did he..........

[Marblehead]

You know, this chapter always bugged me because it seemed out of character. Lao Tzu never talks about the sage as someone who cares about perfection, however it appears. "True perfection seems imperfect" and etc. strikes me as a very western idea. Looking at these various translations, I wonder if Lao Tzu is really warning that all these perfect things are unnatual and "not in keeping with the Tao."

Henricks never used the word "perfection" in his translation. In his translation of the Guodian he did use the word "perfect" and I would agree that this has a slant toward Confucianism. Of course, the Guodian is a mixture of many different sources, not just the TTC.

[ChiDragon]

You know, this chapter always bugged me because it seemed out of character. Lao Tzu never talks about the sage as someone who cares about perfection, however it appears. "True perfection seems imperfect" and etc. strikes me as a very western idea. Looking at these various translations, I wonder if Lao Tzu is really warning that all these perfect things are unnatual and "not in keeping with the Tao."

 

1. Most perfection seems lacking,

2. Its function is endless.

 

Maybe perfection is lacking because it's endless.

 

The lines almost look like a manual for confusianism: Intelligence, skill, eloquence, acomplisment. Maybe Lao Tzu is saying, "Look at all these dificult things people worry about. Just be calm and still."

 

These two lines seem paradoxical because that was writing style of Lao Tze. He never mean what he say nor say what he meant. One must understand his thoughts to interpret the TTC.

Have you read Post #4 for the annotation....???

[lienshan]

The lines almost look like a manual for confusianism:

 

The lines of the Guodian chapter look like a humanization of "the Great One gives birth to Water":

 

The great perfection is like a defect, it uses not giving presents.

The great fullness is like a depletion, it uses not dehydrating.

The great skill is like a hump.

The great posture is like a stoop.

The great straight one is like a crooked one.

Activity overcomes the cold.

Passivity overcomes the heat.

Can clarity be considered the healing of the world?

 

It's IMO a mistake to read/translate the chapter literal as Laozi expressing his own point of view.

[Marblehead]

Well, it's nice to see you still want to heal the world. Lots of luck with that one.

[ChiDragon]

1. Most perfection seems lacking,
2. Its function is endless.

Even though one has reached perfection, but it seems there is still something missing because nobody is perfect. However, for being perfect, it helps to accomplish all other things.

[Marblehead]

I don't need perfect; I just need to make it through another day.

 

See? I had to edit for spelling. Perfection lost!

Edited June 13, 2013 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

That was perfect, you were able to make correction to be perfect. I thought there something was missing......

[Marblehead]

That was perfect, you were able to make correction to be perfect. I thought there something was missing......

That's life. No fear of failure. But don't forget what failures we encounter so we don't have to repeat them. Almost sounds Buddhist, doesn't it?

 

A previous failure is what I have been working on at the pond area the past week and longer.

 

But I'm not looking for perfection, just acceptability. (So that my mind will be at peace about it.)

[ChiDragon]

Nobody is perfect because there is something missing in the process to get there. If one doesn't look for the process, then, one is not in the pursuit of perfection.

[Marblehead]

Nobody is perfect because there is something missing in the process to get there. If one doesn't look for the process, then, one is not in the pursuit of perfection.

But there are ideals and some are even attainable.

[narveen]

now that we have groped the elephant from tip of its trunk to tip of its tail and feel good about it, shall we stop and move onto the next animal in the herd of 81?

Edited June 23, 2013 by narveen