Nei Yeh Ch. 19 - By concentrating your vital breath...

[manitou]

By concentrating your vital breath as if numinous,

The myriad things will all be contained within you.

Can you concentrate? Can you unite with them?

Can you not resort to divining by tortoise or milfoil

Yet know bad and good fortune?

Can you stop? Can you cease?

Can you not seek it in others,

Yet attain it within yourself?

You think and think about it

And think still further about it.

You think, yet still cannot penetrate it.

 

While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it,

It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous,

But to the utmost refinement of your essential vital breath.

When the four limbs are aligned

And the blood and vital breath are tranquil,

Unify your awareness, concentrate your mind,

Then your eyes and ears will not be over-stimulated.

And even the far-off will seem close at hand.

[manitou]

I'd be happy to take a crack at this, but I'd sure welcome some other voices. This chapter seems very nuanced and open to other interpretations.

 

First of all, I'm never sure exactly what 'numinous' means. I looked it up in the dictionary on my desk and it's just not there. I assume that it comes from the root of number or numeral, so my guess is that it refers to making our vital breath (or essence) as The One. The smallest common denominator. It's tempting to think of it as 'luminous' as well, because there seems to be a direct connection. If we are in the place of the One, then in a sense we are capable of Seeing, of 'illuminating' the thing we are trying to see. Perhaps this is what it means when it says all things will be contained within us.

 

By the question 'Can you concentrate?', this seems to say that all inner dialogue must be removed from the mind. This also infers to me that it takes years of meditative practice before we can get to the point of no-dialogue. In my experience, this does not happen overnight. In fact, I think it takes years and years, but I could be dead wrong here. That's just what it took for me.

 

I think it goes on to say that if we get to the place of pure vision, then there is no need for divining tools. We see all things. We see that bad fortune and good fortune are two sides of the same coin, and it is merely our attitude that sees things as either a catastrophe or an opportunity. It is simply our choice as to the attitude we choose to wear to view the circumstances.

 

The ghostly and numinous will penetrate it; they will attain the vision. It is because they have ceased searching with their left brain, the 'furthering the knowledge' quest. Instead, they see it as the intuitive thing that it is; the Sage will let life come to him, not the other way around.

 

The journey is inner, the real journey. It is self-realization, the realization of What We Are All a Part Of. When we get to the point where we're not afraid to wear this realization and be part of the Answer, not the Problem....it is then that the vision clarifies. It is also a step out of ego....because the world will laugh at you. It wouldn't be the Tao if they didn't laugh at you. We need to become unafraid of the laughter and step out in Knowing. Yes, our worldly reputations will probably suffer greatly. We must be willing for this to happen.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Path]

By concentrating your vital breath as if numinous,

The myriad things will all be contained within you.

Can you concentrate? Can you unite with them?

Can you not resort to divining by tortoise or milfoil

Yet know bad and good fortune?

Can you stop? Can you cease?

Can you not seek it in others,

Yet attain it within yourself?

You think and think about it

And think still further about it.

You think, yet still cannot penetrate it.

 

While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it,

It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous,

But to the utmost refinement of your essential vital breath.

When the four limbs are aligned

And the blood and vital breath are tranquil,

Unify your awareness, concentrate your mind,

Then your eyes and ears will not be over-stimulated.

And even the far-off will seem close at hand.

 

Maybe, i don't know, it directs the practitioner to focus and be mindful of your focus, and when the intent is clear, you can start aligning yourself with the erm... hmm.... (fill in the blanks).

 

Well, I'll never know until I practice. Speculations only give me the idea I think I know. Reading it might inspire me in some way or again give me the idea I think I know. Perhaps I'll just practice what I know till I self realize, maybe then I will know.

But Ch. 19 is a lead though.

[Paulw]

This whole chapter is about meditation work. Cultivating in order to see "true nature." "Numinous" can mean "mysterious." Vital breath in this case seems to be the body's chi. Not the external wind that we breath, but the real chi of the body. By concentrating the mind (cultivating one-pointed concentration a.k.a samadhi,) you then in turn refine the vital breath....At least that's what it looks like to me....

 

Also you should look up definitions online, you should be able to find the definition for most words.

 

 

I tend to agree with Simple Jack where the meditation is concerned and the chi as well, when I am practicing tai chi we are taught to breath into our lower dantien, approximately 2-3 finger widths below the navel, the aim is to concentrate the chi here and then make it move around the body, yes years of practice is required but believing that it can actually happen is the greater part of this achievement.

 

If you were to be put into a room that was full of clutter and mess you would find it difficult to look for any singular thing, this is very much like life for most people, you sort one thing out only to be confronted by another feeling the need to use all of our senses, if the same room was empty then all there would be left to find would be yourself.

[deci belle]

[doc benway]

By concentrating your vital breath as if numinous,

The myriad things will all be contained within you.

Can you concentrate? Can you unite with them?

Can you not resort to divining by tortoise or milfoil

Yet know bad and good fortune?

Can you stop? Can you cease?

Can you not seek it in others,

Yet attain it within yourself?

You think and think about it

And think still further about it.

You think, yet still cannot penetrate it.

 

While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it,

It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous,

But to the utmost refinement of your essential vital breath.

When the four limbs are aligned

And the blood and vital breath are tranquil,

Unify your awareness, concentrate your mind,

Then your eyes and ears will not be over-stimulated.

And even the far-off will seem close at hand.

Some thoughts on this chapter, it may take a while to work through it:

 

"By concentrating your vital breath as if numinous,

The myriad things will all be contained within you."

 

The vital breath is clearly Qi (not breath or air but direct internal awareness). Numinous refers to heavenly, divine, spiritual.

This first couplet is an admonition to recognize that the very awareness of the space inside of "ourselves" is none other than that which is the fabric of all, Dao itself. So when we are able to perceive our own "substance" for what it truly is, we understand that we are not separate from Dao, we are just that. This is reflected in the fact that cultivation texts always include a diagram of the entire universe existing within us. We are a microcosm, even a hologram, of the universe. This is directly experienced through meditation, Daoist or otherwise.

 

___________

 

"Can you concentrate? Can you unite with them?

Can you not resort to divining by tortoise or milfoil

Yet know bad and good fortune?"

 

The first line asks if you have put in the time needed to reach the level of meditation where this realization can come into being. It is something that has no substitute. Reading can not provide this, analysis and study are of no value. Only personal practice and direct experience can provide this.

 

To resort to divining by tortoise and milfoil refers to the very common practice of using divining tools that supposedly reflected the will and intention of the gods or of the Dao. This had its roots in shamanism and the Yi Jing. Although one could consult the Yi Jing and the tortoise or milfoil to make decisions in earthly matters, it would not provide a direct, personal communion with Dao. It was an indirect attempt at connecting with Dao. The Daoists who chose a path of cultivation looked for answers internally, directly, through cultivation.

 

One way to interpret the second part is that good and bad fortune will come and go and rather than be concerned with trying to predict or alter the course of our future, we are to be what we are and develop our awareness of and confidence in this through our cultivation. Don't choose or be concerned with preferences, don't try to hedge your bets through divining, rather continue to cultivate and accept and align with Wu Wei as it presents itself.

 

Another possible interpretation is that through cultivation, we may be able to divine such things as good and bad fortune without resorting to the old shamanic methods. I personally would go with the first interpretation as this has more of a connotation of Wu Wei for me and is more in the spirit of the nature and goal of cultivation.

 

Anyway, I'm certainly no authority but these are some of my thoughts for what it's worth.

 

I need to study the next few lines for a while before commenting.

[doc benway]

Can you stop? Can you cease?

Can you not seek it in others,

Yet attain it within yourself?

You think and think about it

And think still further about it.

You think, yet still cannot penetrate it.

 

Can you stop? Can you cease?

 

Who is "you" that this refers to?

Maybe this is the Nei Yeh addressing the problem of the "ego" or the illusory self that is being chatted about elsewhere.

What is this "you" or "I"? Where does it come from?

Is it something tangible or definable?

Or is it an activity? An arising?

And who is there to stop it or cease it anyway?

 

As Krishnamurti describes, a thought that claims for itself the role of the thinker and the doer.

But there's meaningful, reproducible experimental data that shows that "I" make decisions and choices after "my" body has already initiated certain neuromuscular processes that start the doing - before the doer has even decided to do anything!

So the Nei Yeh is hinting that this "I" is something that is being created. It is not essential and we're asked if we can stop it.

Not only that but we're asked if it can cease - this implies finality.

 

-----------

 

Can you not seek it in others?

Yet attain it in yourself?

 

Nei Yeh has overlap with other sources including Zhuang Zi.

Whatever it is referring to that we are to allow to stop and cease, we should not engage in this aspect of others, perhaps.

This is very reminiscent to me of The Empty Boat parable. If an empty boat bumps into mine, what do I care? I just steer away.

If someone is in the boat suddenly I'm angry, I feel violated. Why is this?

Can we let go of seeing the other as separate from Dao? If someone bumps into us it's no different than a tumbleweed rolling by.

And can we attain that absence within ourself so that WE are the empty boat that no one else is disturbed by.

 

 

---------

 

 

You think and think about it

And think still further about it.

You think, yet still cannot penetrate it.

 

Then it goes on to reinforce that thinking is of no value in this realm.

Thinking has no value and the thinker doesn't exist and must cease.

Don't study, don't read, don't debate and analyze - sit, meditate, cultivate.

Allow that which makes you feel separate simply to settle and evaporate and be what you are.

[doc benway]

While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it,

It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous,

But to the utmost refinement of your essential vital breath.

When the four limbs are aligned

And the blood and vital breath are tranquil,

Unify your awareness, concentrate your mind,

Then your eyes and ears will not be over-stimulated.

And even the far-off will seem close at hand.

While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it,

It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous,

But to the utmost refinement of your essential vital breath.

 

That which is spiritual, divine, of the Dao freely penetrates but that is not what we depend on.

We depend on our own personal work. Our cultivation of the Qi - converting Jing to Qi and Qi to shen.

This is how we are to penetrate along with or even at one with, the ghostly and numinous.

It is not through some supernatural, imaginary power or divine gift, it is through patient, diligent refinement of the Qi.

 

---------

 

When the four limbs are aligned

And the blood and vital breath are tranquil,

Unify your awareness, concentrate your mind,

Then your eyes and ears will not be over-stimulated.

And even the far-off will seem close at hand.

 

A prescription for practice -

Sit in the proper attitude - not only physically stable and upright but aligned in terms of all aspects of oneself, emotional, psychological, with a healthy body and attitude. The four limbs can relate simply to the arms and legs but also to the "four extremities" - blood, flesh, bone, and sinew (also referred to as the hair, tongue, teeth, and nails) indicating the importance of a healthy and balanced body.

The blood and vital breath relate to Yin and Yang components of the body and spirit - blood is Yin and Qi is Yang so both must be in balance and tranquil.

Unify awareness and concentrate mind - these are specific instructions for using the mind of intent in focusing, refining, clarifying, manipulating, "creating?" the internal network defined by a school's particular Nei Gong. Most schools teach a series of exercises starting with the microcosmic orbit and progressing to more demanding and productive techniques for refining awareness and concentration.

Most schools recommend the eyes remain open and be soft, the ears of course, are always attentive.

Early on its very easy to get distracted and it can be hazardous to be suddenly interrupted when very tranquil during deep meditation.

With practice one reaches a distance from the sensory input of the eyes and ears - neither attentive nor inattentive.

Neither distracted nor engaged.

With deeper tranquility the entire universe becomes one's body - at times it almost seems like an inversion takes place.

All sorts of unusual sensations and difficult descriptions arise but when the distinction between self and Dao is no longer operational, perhaps that is what it means that the far-off seems close at hand.

[dawei]

First of all, I'm never sure exactly what 'numinous' means. I looked it up in the dictionary on my desk and it's just not there. I assume that it comes from the root of number or numeral, so my guess is that it refers to making our vital breath (or essence) as The One. The smallest common denominator. It's tempting to think of it as 'luminous' as well, because there seems to be a direct connection. If we are in the place of the One, then in a sense we are capable of Seeing, of 'illuminating' the thing we are trying to see. Perhaps this is what it means when it says all things will be contained within us.

The word for Numinous is "Shen", which is more often translated as "Spirit". Many of the chapters here talk about "Gui" and "Shen" which we discussed in DDJ Chapter 60:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19941-ttc-study-chapter-60-of-the-tao-teh-ching/page__view__findpost__p__283698

[manitou]

To resort to divining by tortoise and milfoil refers to the very common practice of using divining tools that supposedly reflected the will and intention of the gods or of the Dao. This had its roots in shamanism and the Yi Jing. Although one could consult the Yi Jing and the tortoise or milfoil to make decisions in earthly matters, it would not provide a direct, personal communion with Dao. It was an indirect attempt at connecting with Dao. The Daoists who chose a path of cultivation looked for answers internally, directly, through cultivation.

 

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

The funny thing about tortoise and milfoil (or today's counterparts) is that this type of stuff is wonderful for triangulating. If one stays in the absolute here and now when trying to See something, the answers are in the ethers at that particular moment; the synchronicity is there. This goes back to being 'as a child'. A child will see the crow talking to the sparrow, or the wind coming up at just the right moment. Shamanism absolutely figures into all the traditions, as far as I can see. Synchronicity is Here Now! The trick is for us to get down to our own naivete, our child-nature, to see it. To not be afraid to be considered naive and child-like; actually being considered by others as being 'stupid'. It's just not real politically correct, and it makes one feel like a fool, to be seen as an idiot by most others. But this goes directly to ego too. If it bothers us to be viewed as an idiot, then we still have some ego work to do. This stuff runs deep.....

[Informer]

By concentrating your vital breath as if numinous,

The myriad things will all be contained within you.

Can you concentrate? Can you unite with them?

Can you not resort to divining by tortoise or milfoil

Yet know bad and good fortune?

Can you stop? Can you cease?

Can you not seek it in others,

Yet attain it within yourself?

You think and think about it

And think still further about it.

You think, yet still cannot penetrate it.

 

While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it,

It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous,

But to the utmost refinement of your essential vital breath.

When the four limbs are aligned

And the blood and vital breath are tranquil,

Unify your awareness, concentrate your mind,

Then your eyes and ears will not be over-stimulated.

And even the far-off will seem close at hand.

 

It's pointing at the third eye. "While the ghostly and numinous will penetrate it, It is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous" (a warning )

 

Unifying awareness is the key, finding the creative and logic awareness and the only place they can unite.

 

I think that vital breath is talking about AKA prana, celestial chi, pre heavenly chi, etc, which feels like a steady flow "chills" throughout the body, this is achieved through the numinous, or the relatively highest point of the energy body "third eye".

 

The questioning is revealing the subjective nature of this phenomena, there is still nothing truly objective ever been presented as evidence to anyone but yourself of this phenomena. So it has rang true since this book was written, (I would consider it a subjective law).

 

The rest of it seems to be explaining the 1st part of the process and what to expect, and it seems akin to self-inquiry / anatta.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Informer

[manitou]

"While the ghostly and numinous penetrate it, it is not due to the power of the ghostly and numinous..."

 

It seems to me, too, that the ghostly and numinous spoken of here are those that possess the third eye. Ghostly and numinous = transparent, free of personality contortion, free of attaching entanglements. I'm not sure I see the warning in this, as it is exactly the life illusion that we want to penetrate. When we've gotten down to the Essence in our self-inquiry/anatta, this is where the two halves merge, in my experience. Our Self-Realization merges with The Words of Others. Love, unconditional love, becomes more the order of the day. In order to utilize the 3rd eye (which I call triangulating, because it feels just like you're out in space with a huge protractor or something and can see dynamics and angles that weren't visible previous to the 3rd eye development) I think we need to do the clearing out process first.

 

Really nice post, Informer...

Edited May 24, 2012 by manitou