Damaging Dantien

[Kali Yuga]

I've observed that within certain practices regarding the cultivation of energy in the dantien, it seems like a universal rule not to put dantien training and sex nearly in the same box. I've heard in the longmenpai you are not supposed to practice a week after you have sex? and many systems seem to have a rule about such things. From everywhere I see it chigong + ejaculation = bad.

 

So, don't you think that its possible to damage your dantien or that sort of thing? or at least put stress on it. I'm sure that the higher methods of alchemy all have their dangers, and sometimes irreparable damage can be caused to oneself during certain stages if one is not careful. And sex is probably one of them given the fact that it seems so common a rule in many systems.

 

What do we know about the mechanism between pulling energy in the dantien and ejaculation? I'd like to know what some of our other bums know that I myself might not. and specifically how sex and the pulling chi into dantien= a no no, at least for a specified time? and no, none of that mantak chia stuff, sadly i'm not a fan of his work, and wouldn't like any of it mentioned here.

[Ya Mu]

I've observed that within certain practices regarding the cultivation of energy in the dantien, it seems like a universal rule not to put dantien training and sex nearly in the same box. I've heard in the longmenpai you are not supposed to practice a week after you have sex? and many systems seem to have a rule about such things. From everywhere I see it chigong + ejaculation = bad.

 

So, don't you think that its possible to damage your dantien or that sort of thing? or at least put stress on it. I'm sure that the higher methods of alchemy all have their dangers, and sometimes irreparable damage can be caused to oneself during certain stages if one is not careful. And sex is probably one of them given the fact that it seems so common a rule in many systems.

 

What do we know about the mechanism between pulling energy in the dantien and ejaculation? I'd like to know what some of our other bums know that I myself might not. and specifically how sex and the pulling chi into dantien= a no no, at least for a specified time? and no, none of that mantak chia stuff, sadly i'm not a fan of his work, and wouldn't like any of it mentioned here.

But Chia said... just kidding.

 

IMO there is nothing wrong with cultivation and sex when following the middle path. Didn't Daniel Reed (memory-perhaps not)write about this as well? 2 days recuperation in twenties, 3 days recuperation in 30's, etc. This is what I was originally taught. But NOT, as some systems suggest to not cultivate during that recuperation period. In fact, IMO, it goes against common sense. Just when a person NEEDS the cultivation most.

IMO all this changes when one practices dual cultivation so that the energy spent is utilized in an alchemy reaction to actually create more energy. However, I haven't seen this written about except in my book.

[fiveelementtao]

Completely depends on the system you practice. It is totally unnecessary in my system to regulate sex, You can have a normal sex life and make great progress in cultivation. As YaMu already said, a good relationship has its own cultivation benefits. My energy and power is greater now than when I was single and celibate. Drugs and alcohol however, in my system... not so good.

 

 

I've observed that within certain practices regarding the cultivation of energy in the dantien, it seems like a universal rule not to put dantien training and sex nearly in the same box. I've heard in the longmenpai you are not supposed to practice a week after you have sex? and many systems seem to have a rule about such things. From everywhere I see it chigong + ejaculation = bad.

 

So, don't you think that its possible to damage your dantien or that sort of thing? or at least put stress on it. I'm sure that the higher methods of alchemy all have their dangers, and sometimes irreparable damage can be caused to oneself during certain stages if one is not careful. And sex is probably one of them given the fact that it seems so common a rule in many systems.

 

What do we know about the mechanism between pulling energy in the dantien and ejaculation? I'd like to know what some of our other bums know that I myself might not. and specifically how sex and the pulling chi into dantien= a no no, at least for a specified time? and no, none of that mantak chia stuff, sadly i'm not a fan of his work, and wouldn't like any of it mentioned here.

[ChiDragon]

But Chia said... just kidding.

 

IMO there is nothing wrong with cultivation and sex when following the middle path. Didn't Daniel Reed (memory-perhaps not)write about this as well? 2 days recuperation in twenties, 3 days recuperation in 30's, etc. This is what I was originally taught. But NOT, as some systems suggest to not cultivate during that recuperation period. In fact, IMO, it goes against common sense. Just when a person NEEDS the cultivation most.

IMO all this changes when one practices dual cultivation so that the energy spent is utilized in an alchemy reaction to actually create more energy. However, I haven't seen this written about except in my book.

EXACTLY....

 

PS...

There was no such thing as damaging dantiAn(丹田).

Edited June 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm in agreement with Ya Mu here, and I'm really glad that someone of his abilities sees it this way. I read Daniel Reid's book before any Chia stuff (only a couple chapter of Chia), and found Reid's book to be mostly based off the writing of the Yellow Emperor. I think we probably would have heard more about self-damage this way too since so many people are into dual cultivation now.

 

Another thing I wonder about with this is that it's said the jing, chi, and shen must be in balance and harmony. So if someone is not not cultivating shen and chi adequately, then it seems that overabundance of jing would just throw them out of balance rather than move them along smoothly. Sure they should use that energy to practice, but some people being 100% celibate all year, while not practicing like 3 hours day... I don't know.. but I'm not striving for immortality in this life time either..

 

Other notes on this, from Reid's book, is that nocturnal emission is "100 times" worse than when awake and controlled so extreme celibacy is not always the best answer. And, there is a lot more leeway in Spring, then about every week in summer, every month (if I remember) in Fall, and hold out all winter. By 30 everything should be with a partner, and after 50 you should save everything to the end. This was from someone reported to live about 200 years or something, if that's what you're planning to do...

 

And, yes, like Ya Mu said, it seems to make sense that cultivation would be especially important when vitality is low..

Edited June 30, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[宁]

What do we know about the mechanism between pulling energy in the dantien and ejaculation?

 

OP:

pausing for a couple of days (depending on your age?) is a good idea. where/who did you learn it from?

you already have a good share of views on it, so take your pick

[NeiChuan]

I think if people understand the meaning of taking only what you need there wouldn't be many problems. Using just safe, basic techniques. Pretty simple.

 

But not easy. Look at our planet for instance. When people have alot of resources, they often use it up quicker then if they had half as much.

[dawei]

The dan tian cannot be damaged per se, it is the energetic container. Organs though can be damaged. A removed organ can still have it's energetic container or can have it re-fashioned again. The issue (or question) should be, IMO: What kind of depletion do you experience from sex and how to replenish that? People vary, so there is not any rule for everyone but qigong is definitely a way to replenish (as is sex itself). But if you are depleted (through whatever means, including sex) and then try to do some vigorous qigong emission (more depletion), you may find yourself feeling quite weak (lacking the energy reserve). In Medical Qigong, we talk about "purge", "tonify", "regulate". if you follow purge with purge, your going to be weak; If you don't have the energy to do some practice, you need to "tonify". Qigong can tonify you. So can food. So can simple breathing.

 

Another thing I wonder about with this is that it's said the jing, chi, and shen must be in balance and harmony. So if someone is not not cultivating shen and chi adequately, then it seems that overabundance of jing would just throw them out of balance rather than move them along smoothly.

The idea of jing, chi, shen cultivation does not mean if you don't do one of them your out of balance. This is trying to make a general rule which is not thinking in the bigger picture, IMO. Most people do not do shen gong practices; so are they all out of balance? I would say no. I would recognize that there are three realms: Physical, energetic, spiritual. If they are only cultivating jing and qi, then I would simply say they are experiencing more of the physical and energetic realm. I would not say they are out of balance. If they purposely add in Shen practices and don't regulate it all well, then they may get out of balance.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

The idea of jing, chi, shen cultivation does not mean if you don't do one of them your out of balance. This is trying to make a general rule which is not thinking in the bigger picture, IMO. Most people do not do shen gong practices; so are they all out of balance? I would say no. I would recognize that there are three realms: Physical, energetic, spiritual. If they are only cultivating jing and qi, then I would simply say they are experiencing more of the physical and energetic realm. I would not say they are out of balance. If they purposely add in Shen practices and don't regulate it all well, then they may get out of balance.

 

Thanks for the input. I see what you mean about physical and spiritual sides. Following that though, it might make sense at least that not practicing Chi cultivation rigorously (say 3 hours a day) while practicing 100% abstinence all year will throw off the balance...?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hi Harmonious Emptiness,

 

I hope you are well.

 

Curious about your comment. When you say "so many people," how many cultivators do you know that are practicing dc together? Are you refering to TTB posts, or do you know folks in your local/non-local taoist (et al) community?

 

I read a lot of posts here - questions and offerings - about dc techniques, but I am totally unclear and unknowledgeable to the statitistics of cultivating couples. It is my impression that many more folks are practicing solo techniques in the event that they may be able to find a compatible partner. Heck if I know. And if we include non-taoist techniques, there other systems with which couples can cultivate. But when I think of the term "dual cultivation," I immediately think of specific (safe and potentially unsafe) taoist practices.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Hi Rainbow

 

I realized a few errors after posting that but it was late so I didn't go back to edit...

 

Mainly I meant people on TTB who practice some type of dual cultivation. Or, at least there are a lot of people who practice Qi Gong and are not celibate so they would have had some experiences in regards to the OP.

 

It seems to be known about by high level martial artists a fair bit too. My ex dated a guy who studied with Shaolin in China and (man, girls always tell waay too much private information about their exs....) she said that he did the injaculation thing. Also I think most people who study Chi Kung are schooled a bit about the importance of retention and would be directed to sources on how do this in a relationship. This is speculation, but it is pretty important to Qi Gong.

 

There was also an article in a free daily newspaper here in Montreal a month ago (they hand it out at the subways in the morning) which was titled "did he say injaculation?" and referenced Mantak Chia. It was just interested in multiple orgasms but it also shows that there is more interest in this of late (then again, I live Montreal.. thank god). I also picked up a copy of Daniel Reid's book from the RECYLING BOX IN THE LOBBY OF MY APPARTMENT BUILDING AT 7 IN THE MORNING. BEST FREAKIN FIND EVER! I really wondered if someone knew I pass there in the mornings and left if for me... spooky

 

The biggest thing I should have mentioned is that even the people practicing with partners are hardly practicing dual cultivation since their partner doesn't usually know anything about dual cultivation, so it's more of a sexual cultivation for the one practitioner than dual-cultivation or Taoist sex, imho.

 

edit: oh, yes I'm doing well, thanks for asking I hope the same goes for you too!

 

Edited June 30, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

Thanks for the input. I see what you mean about physical and spiritual sides. Following that though, it might make sense at least that not practicing Chi cultivation rigorously (say 3 hours a day) while practicing 100% abstinence all year will throw off the balance...?

In the words of my Medical Qigong master/teacher: "It depends"

 

In my mind, what the foundational issue is to keep these in check:

1. Purging (losing of qi; in terms of organs, it would be expelling toxic qi)

2. Tonifying (acquiring qi; in terms of organs, it would be acquiring qi)

3. Regulating (balance the two above)

 

If you take an extreme tonifying practice (rigorously 3 hours a day) and no purging (100% abstinence all year), your regulation is probably off. I use this generic way of describing it to show that it is not the practice or abstinence themselves but whatever you choose to do in terms of tonifying vs purging needs to be regulated.

 

Let's say someone does this vigorous tonifying build up; they need to figure out ways to purge (other than sex) to properly regulate themselves. So part of the rigorous practice could (should) include purging! Thus the practice itself is regulated.

 

I agree with what was said earlier; it's generally not natural to abstain, but one should follow what their body says to do. For one person it may create less a desire for sex or for another maybe more. I think if one is doing a short term practice, like a '100 day microcosmic burn', then abstaining is probably recommended so you can get through it more smoothly and maybe even earlier. If you fill your stomach with meat and often have sex, that 100 days may not be as easy since your disturbing the quality of the qi during that time. It may then take a longer time.

 

It's a valid question and I can only share my thoughts. I don't think there are hard and fast rules that cover everyone, since we are all different, but a person should understanding many of the issues raised in the thread and understand their body.

[dawei]

The biggest thing I should have mentioned is that even the people practicing with partners are hardly practicing dual cultivation since their partner doesn't usually know anything about dual cultivation, so it's more of a sexual cultivation for the one practitioner than dual-cultivation or Taoist sex, imho.

If I use this as an example of what I mentioned;

In sex, most people think in terms of what they loose (essence), this is a purge. But you also need to see it in terms of what you gain from your partner (essence). So I am back to thinking in terms of the regulation idea. I am not suggesting that the act become a meditative or emotionless concentration; but I am suggesting that one can become as one who 'breaths in and out naturally' (ie: regulating the loose and gain) and this may even enhance the emotional aspect of it with the partner.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If I use this as an example of what I mentioned;

In sex, most people think in terms of what they loose (essence), this is a purge. But you also need to see it in terms of what you gain from your partner (essence). So I am back to thinking in terms of the regulation idea. I am not suggesting that the act become a meditative or emotionless concentration; but I am suggesting that one can become as one who 'breaths in and out naturally' (ie: regulating the loose and gain) and this may even enhance the emotional aspect of it with the partner.

 

Yes. I suspect that there is an aspect of this even when people are just "vibing" off each other on a deep level while drinking coffee together or what have you.

 

I like that you mention purging as part of the process. Sometimes I wonder if I'm purging negative energy or qi that I should be retaining. Is there a certain way to know when it's not obvious?

 

I've also heard of people who have pain using the excess energy to fill the lack of energy in another part or other persons weak area. I've found this useful for transferring some extra energy from pain to the dantien within myself as it at least relaxes the area. I see the danger in this if it's negative energy being intended there, but some diseases are caused by stagnation of chi and others by lack of chi.. Dr. Zhi Gang Sha teaches this, so I believe the energy in general can be moved this way which is strange. I suppose the chi doesn't have the disease, and the stagnant chi was only stagnant in the blocked channel of the one who releases it?

[dawei]

I like that you mention purging as part of the process. Sometimes I wonder if I'm purging negative energy or qi that I should be retaining. Is there a certain way to know when it's not obvious?

Good point. It's the old idea of "out with the old and in with the new". Use your 'imagine + intention + shen' to do this. Generally speaking, use sounds to break up/purge and color to tonify. You want to visualize what is being removed is what we all toxic or turbid qi.

 

I've also heard of people who have pain using the excess energy to fill the lack of energy in another part or other persons weak area. I've found this useful for transferring some extra energy from pain to the dantien within myself as it at least relaxes the area. I see the danger in this if it's negative energy being intended there, but some diseases are caused by stagnation of chi and others by lack of chi.. Dr. Zhi Gang Sha teaches this, so I believe the energy in general can be moved this way which is strange. I suppose the chi doesn't have the disease, and the stagnant chi was only stagnant in the blocked channel of the one who releases it?

I think of it like detoxing; when detoxing it ultimately has to get carried out the body and that is why they say to drink tons of water; it will attach itself to the water and get out of your system. The same with qi; the negative, toxic, turbid energy stuck in muscles or parts of your body need to get out.

 

Bring the qi to that area; break up the area; now push that qi out of the body. When one has a pain or a tight muscle or something it is helpful to 'put the mind there and breath into (in and out) of that place'. In this way, the qi is doing the same thing; to try and open up flow and carrying something out if needed. The muscle itself can be relaxed with the mind but it may need physical touch sometimes. Let the energy sink down and out the feet as a general rule.

 

Which means the energy has to pass through that important waist area and through the thighs (if the issue is in the top half of the body). So this middle area is very important to be open and loose; think yoga and tai ji, where both emphasize this.

[dawei]

Funny, my initial education was in the BKF tradition about energy going out the feet. However, in my experience of the last 13 months, so much stagnant qi has been leaving my crown. I suspect this is due my own upper and lower body blockages. (Too much crap to pass.) Lately my legs have been opening up with force, so I do experience increased sensations in the feet and out the bubbling wells.

I have the EXACT experience. I don't mention it leaving the crown since it seems to just do it without any of my own thought or intention; happens on it's own will. But I suspected it was due to the same reasons you mention. There are a few places I massage in the lower extremities as I often wake up in the mornings with my legs percolating Qi. About 5 minutes of breathing qi circulations usually clears it up. thanks for sharing that; nice to hear another has the same experience.

[Kali Yuga]

Back to topic.

 

I was just wondering as I had engaged in sexual activity about an hour after practice. I've been doing ywang jing ming's "embryonic breathing" practice for months, basically doing reverse breathing while sitting and focusing on dantien, I could always get the chi to get very hot rather quickly. I'm still pooling all the chi at dantien and building myself a nice strong dantien before proceeding with anything else.

 

After the "dirty deed" so to speak I've had my dantien hurting for the past two days now, and it seems like i'm getting the same heat sensations from dantien, at the soles of my feet. which has me worried as it seems to be chi pooling down from there. i'm trying to build my chi at dantien, and don't want it spilling down my other channels at the moment. so i thought it must've been the sex, and since it occurred so soon after training, that maybe something was happening to my dantien. not so sure what to make of it, just am afraid it would affect my progress in my practice.

 

maybe you guys know more about it than I do.

[dawei]

Although his book is big, it is disjointed to say the least in terms of clearly explaining how to do the E.B. He says the first step is to regulate the Shen (one of five regulations). Did you master that?

 

What exactly do you do as part of your practice? After your initial dan tian is warmed, what circulations and regulations are you doing? If your over-charging it, then your not regulating (and circulating) enough.

 

He says to read all the translated works many times as they are like a road map; the problem is that he expects you to piece together the map.

 

Ultimately, he says that Shen can be brought DOWN to the dan tian to join up with Qi and then they both can return to source.

 

I would think there is some stress introduced by the stress on your energetic system. My opinion is not to engage under such advanced practices until you know you are doing all the regulations correctly and your not over-charged.

 

I can't tell you how dangerous it all sounded to me when I first read the book. I personally would not attempt it without a proper and proven teacher of this practice.

 

Maybe you could state your ultimate goal; what is it you hope to achieve and why you choose this method instead of more basic ones?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Back to topic.

 

I was just wondering as I had engaged in sexual activity about an hour after practice. I've been doing ywang jing ming's "embryonic breathing" practice for months, basically doing reverse breathing while sitting and focusing on dantien, I could always get the chi to get very hot rather quickly. I'm still pooling all the chi at dantien and building myself a nice strong dantien before proceeding with anything else.

 

After the "dirty deed" so to speak I've had my dantien hurting for the past two days now, and it seems like i'm getting the same heat sensations from dantien, at the soles of my feet. which has me worried as it seems to be chi pooling down from there. i'm trying to build my chi at dantien, and don't want it spilling down my other channels at the moment. so i thought it must've been the sex, and since it occurred so soon after training, that maybe something was happening to my dantien. not so sure what to make of it, just am afraid it would affect my progress in my practice.

 

maybe you guys know more about it than I do.

Before I'm going into saying anything, may I ask you how often have you done the "dirty deed". How close are they between one another....???

 

In the meantime, to get rid of the pain. You may place your index and middle fingers within two inches below the navel and press down on it while laying down on your back. You may feel strong pulses resisting against your fingers. This is completely normal. You just continue to apply pressure with your fingers. If the pulse resistance was too great, then release your fingers and press again. Eventually, the pain will be decreased to a minimal.

[dawei]

I was just with my Qigong master (his background is in Medical Qigong and martial arts) and asked him about the Embryonic breathing. I knew he had meet Yang, Jwing-Ming before and had his book. He described it's goal as mostly for [martial] power and longevity; but being a 'downward' shen practice it is much more dangerous than the 'upward' shen development.

 

He said the basic idea is to move the Shen downward into the Dan Tian to 'pack' the energy; once packed it MUST be then used by beginning to pack the legs and then even the ribs and arms; ergo, Iron Shirt. One must know when it is enough and also when to purge any excess out (the feet). He said the main problems people run into is that they over-pack the dan tian and don't move or use that energy to other areas enough; they are then over-charged in the dan tian which can lead to both physical and psychological disturbances.

 

He demonstrated the difference to me by putting the back of his wrist against my stomach:

1. Push me with just muscle - I moved back a little

2. Push me with Qi - I moved back more forcefully like a very strong push

3. Push me with Shen + Qi - I felt like the wind was almost knocked out of me (he promised me that this was just a very gentle strike).