Taoist Philosophy - Conversations IV

[Marblehead]

"I have studied the Six Classics, the Book of Poetry, the Book of History, the Book of Rites, the Book of Music, the Philosophy of Mutations and the Spring and Autumn Annals", said Confucius to Lao Tan. "I think I have studied them for a long time and know them very well. But I have gone around the seventy-two kingdoms to interview their rulers and spoken to them about the principles of government of the ancient kings and the historical records of Dukes Chou and Shoa. Not a single one of them wanted to listen to me. Indeed it is so difficult for a man to convince others and for people to understand the truth."

"Fortunately for you", replied Lao Tan, "you did not meet one of those rulers who want to put the world in order. The Six Classics that you speak of are but like footprints left by the ancient kings, and not the persons from whom the footprints come. What you talk about is nothing but such footprints. A footprint is made by a shoe, but it is not the shoe itself. The (male and female) white hawks reproduce their kind by looking at each other without turning their eyes. A male insect chirps in one place and a female insect echoes his cry somewhere below and they reproduce. Certain animals are hermaphrodites and they reproduce by themselves. Each one's nature cannot be changed. Each one's destiny cannot be altered. Time cannot be stopped, and Tao must not be blocked up. With possession of the Tao, one can go wherever one likes. Without the Tao, one is lost wherever one goes."

Confucius returned and did not stir from his house for three months, after which period he went again to see Lao Tan and said, "Now I've got it. The birds reproduce by laying eggs, the deer by giving birth, and some insects by metamorphosis (from the chrysalis). The elder brother cries when his younger brother is born (in the case of breast-feeding babies). For a long time I have not lost myself in the common humanity, and without losing oneself in the common humanity, how can I teach humanity?"

"Now you've got it", said Lao Tan.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Marblehead

[MassTaoism]

I wonder if Confucius and Lao Tzu ever truly had any discussions with each other during their lifespans, or if they've even heard of each other through word of mouth? I'm kind of ignorant to that whole era of living so I don't even know if they even existed within the same period of time as each other, but its certainly something I would like to learn. Confucius could have learned a lot from Master Lao Tzu back in those days, heck, anyone who had the chance to even talk to Lao Tzu could have learned a lot from him by just making communication with him, sometimes I wish I was alive back in those days if not just for the conversations alone.

[Marblehead]

I wonder if Confucius and Lao Tzu ever truly had any discussions with eachother during their lifespans, or if they've even heard of eachother through word of mouth? I'm kind of ignorant to that whole era of living so I don't even know if they even existed within the same period of time as eachother, but its certainly something I would like to learn. Confucius could have learned a lot from Master Lao Tzu back in those days, heck, anyone who had the chance to even talk to Lao Tzu could have learned a lot from him by just making communication with him, sometimes I wish I was alive back in those days if not just for the conversations alone.

 

Hard telling. It's not even an absolute that Lao Tzu ever existed at all. If he did the best guess is that he would have been 53 years older than Confucius. This in itself would probably indicate that they never knew each other or at least they never had any lengthy philosophical discussions.

 

Still nice to imagine though.

[Otis]

Not a single one of them wanted to listen to me. Indeed it is so difficult for a man to convince others and for people to understand the truth.

Well, this certainly seems relevant to an internet discussion group.

 

When I do find myself trying to convince someone of something, I am soon reminded of the futility of it (at least for me, right now). I recognize very little influence that I have in others lives, at least via my ideas. Most of my attempts at explaining my ideas to others, have led nowhere, or backfired.

 

Here, at least, I have the rationale that posting is a practice of making sure that I am clear, honest, and not taking short-cuts. So, even if I can't convince anyone, I can at least practice doing my best, at communicating what I believe.

 

For a long time I have not lost myself in the common humanity, and without losing oneself in the common humanity, how can I teach humanity?

Anyone want to speculate on what it means to "lose myself in the common humanity"?

[MassTaoism]

He could have lost his sense of humanity for a brief period of time and in doing so felt that teaching the ways of humanity to others would brand himself slightly hypocritical?

[Marblehead]

 

Anyone want to speculate on what it means to "lose myself in the common humanity"?

 

I see this as meaning to go along with the crowd, to accept the standards set by others, to get lost in just trying to be 'normal'.

[stan herman]

I see this as meaning to go along with the crowd, to accept the standards set by others, to get lost in just trying to be 'normal'.

 

That seems a reasonable interpretation to me. As an old boss of mine used to say, "You got to take them from where they're at (non from where you're at)". But of course, if go along and get along too well, you won't be moving them anywhere. They'll have moved you.

[Marblehead]

That seems a reasonable interpretation to me. As an old boss of mine used to say, "You got to take them from where they're at (not from where you're at)". But of course, if you go along and get along too well, you won't be moving them anywhere. They'll have moved you.

 

Yep. That's the thing about leadership. You have to be 'with' your people but yet you have to be one step ahead of them. That the trick of getting them to push you.

[Everything]

You have to win the hearts of the people first before changing their minds. Loves endures all. You become connected with your followers. Thus you must learn to connect to maintain influence.

 

I like the story where he chooses to disconnect with his senses in order to find new truth. Then disconnected he returns with no way of sharing his treasure. It happens all the time to me aswell. Either connected with no treasure, or disconnected with treasures. Finding balance there would be great.

[deci belle]

Confucious said:

"For a long time I have not lost myself in the common humanity, and without losing oneself in the common humanity, how can I teach humanity?"

 

I see this as meaning to go along with the crowd, to accept the standards set by others, to get lost in just trying to be 'normal'.

 

It seems to be a reiteration of "softening the light", and harmonizing the light— also it is an exhortation (when appropriate in general social situations), to avoid entertaining views, opinions, judgements, ie: a selfish perspective. Who can rail against an empty boat? —but to the point, how better a way to understand the reality one is in, than to "get lost" in it..

 

Also, It is essential to not become confused in dealing with ordinary affairs.

 

In Lu Tung-pin's "Hundred Character Tablet", he states in lines four and five that:

 

Real constancy should respond to people

In responding to people, it is essential not to get confused.

 

We could consider harmonizing within ordinary situations and adapting to conditions in order to find out what is really happening, or what has really happened, without prejudice— is a teacher's research done in secret. Eventually one can really begin to operate and adapt knowledgeably within the context of a potential reality to see a way to be believed and influential, ie: not employing negation exclusively within a situation. In a way, what is there to do, anyway? If it's home stay. If not, desist.

 

The Art of War tells of the necessity of a leader to bond with the troops in such a way as to command (not demand) respect. This is like Everything's "You have to win the hearts of the people first…".

 

The 17th hexagram, "Following", states that it is first necessary to give, in order for one to get.

 

"With possession of the Tao, one can go wherever one likes. Without the Tao, one is lost wherever one goes.

 

So for enlightening beings, as were Confucious and Lao Tzu, it seems that going along with the crowd and accepting standards set by others is important, but getting lost in just trying to be 'normal' might not be the intent of these teachers in terms of influencing people effectively. I just resist the part about "trying" mostly, I guess, because that isn't the challenge— "getting lost" is the technique.❤

 

(ed: add two letters and change one)

Edited July 5, 2011 by deci belle

[Marblehead]

Hi Deci Belle,

 

"Getting lost" indicates that we have misplaced our Self.

 

I agree that we must be 'one of the people' regardless of where we are on this planet, in order to avoid conflict. But I think it is important that we do not lose our Self.

 

But on the other hand I think that it is important that we do not present an incorrect picture of our Self to others. By that I mean that we should not accept behaviour that is in total conflict with what we hold to as being sacred.

 

I agree, in leadership 'commanding' is much different than 'demanding'.

[stan herman]

[deci belle]

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Strange. I have no thought concerning this at the moment. (But I'm reading y'alls posts.)

[stan herman]

Whew, deci belle, didn't expect that deluge. I was tempted to respond to it paragraph by paragraph, but that wouldn't accomplish much, I don't think. Just a few points:

 

First, I believe I understand what you are saying--Trust your inner guide, it will take you where you need to go. In the function of leadership, the true spiritual leader trusts her inner guide to provide direction and impetus as she gently guides others. " Understanding not-understanding is true understanding. That is the method of getting lost in the hearts and minds of the people." That is all the true leader knows and all she needs to know. Worldly leadership does not exist, it is only a guise for selfishness and ignorance.

 

In my view, this is a very narrow view. There are fundamental 'truths' within it, but like other forms of fundamentalism, it disregards, denigrates and discards those aspects of wisdom that do not conform to its gospel.

 

You do not know me, or my background. Nor do I know you. I've read a few of your earlier comments and liked them

[deci belle]

[Marblehead]

[stan herman]

Hello deci. I like what you're saying. With a little clarification we may find ourselves not so far apart. Here are some responses to your post:

 

About Lao Tzu's approved text. I believe one ought to take into account his time and place (as well as the fact of Chinese character translations and the numbers of interpretations thereof. More about this in the post that follows.

 

About " The gist of the story is to keep this kind of knowledge alive. It is ultimately about each individual's self-refinement." Self-refinement differs by time and culture, as you know. I have no quarrel with the direction of Lao Tzu's teachings in general. These are often profound and worthy of deep personal consideration. They are not however, in my view, a complete compendium of wisdom. There are gaps, and there is obsolescence. I believe if Lao Tzu were speaking today he would say some things in a different way, and sometimes different things. I have a thread here called Tao Now... that touches on some of these. I'd be pleased to have you look at and criticize them. My views are not frozen.

 

About " It is the way it is for no reason at all. No one knows why." I could not agree more. And at the same time we have been placed (or placed ourselves) here in this particular world, and most of us must (or choose to) deal with it within the provisional 'truths' that work best for us.

 

About "... and not hypothetical requirements of yer average world leader...". I said nothing about world leaders. I spoke of " leaders of worldly affairs". By worldly affairs I mean the matters people need to deal with in their daily lives--especially in the leadership function. I've had a good deal of on-the-ground experience in this area during my career (details on request)

 

About your poem, there's not much with which I disagree. I do think it's from a pretty cosmic point of view (I like cosmic/mega/meta views and always carry them back there behind my thinking mind).

[stan herman]

I've mentioned a few times that I thought it important to remember that Lao Tzu dictated his 81 verses in an ancient and quite different time--Imperial China when rulers were rulers and nobody voted. He was also a member of the elite and an adviser to the power structure. There is an underlying passivity and submissiveness to many of the Tao's verses that I think reflects those conditions.

 

When he composed them Lao Tzu was an old man--an old man heading away from the activities of advising royalty, and into the quieter times of retirement. Having experienced such a situation myself, I realized that those 'senior' feelings -- peace, contentment, affection, stability -- were becoming increasingly attractive to me too -- in contrast, for example, to competition, excitement, challenge and discovery. But, the fact is that since the beginning of humanity and among primates before, that latter set has been with the world, and except for those who renounce the world entirely, they will endure. In examining Chinese history at the time, they endured for Lao Tzu's clients too.

 

The significance I find in these observations is hardly profound. Rather it's one of the traditional adages that notes for every season there is a turn.

[stan herman]

[MassTaoism]

"Fortunately for you", replied Lao Tan, "you did not meet one of those rulers who want to put the world in order. The Six Classics that you speak of are but like footprints left by the ancient kings, and not the persons from whom the footprints come."

 

The above is my favorite line from this offering, I enjoyed the entire post but this specific line really got me thinking about all literiture that is hundreds of years older than we are and whether or not what we read is what the original author had really written.

[Marblehead]

The above is my favorite line from this offering, I enjoyed the entire post but this specific line really got me thinking about all literiture that is hundreds of years older than we are and whether or not what we read is what the original author had really written.

 

Yep. No disrespect for ancient writings but we need remember that we are reading only the thoughts that the author was able to put into words, and that the author was writing in a specific place on the planet and at a specific time is space.

 

When we read these thoughts we need remember that not everything is going to apply to our "time/space" existence. Things change. Basic concepts last a bit longer. And yes, translations always lose parts of the message.

[stan herman]

Yep. No disrespect for ancient writings but we need remember that we are reading only the thoughts that the author was able to put into words, and that the author was writing in a specific place on the planet and at a specific time is space.

 

When we read these thoughts we need remember that not everything is going to apply to our "time/space" existence. Things change. Basic concepts last a bit longer. And yes, translations always lose parts of the message.

 

Yes indeed. It relieves my concern to see you make those points. My addition (from a post I'll be placing in 'Tao Now'.

 

 

It's important to remember that Lao Tzu dictated his 81 verses in an ancient and quite different time--Imperial China when rulers were rulers, illiterate peasants were the masses, and nobody voted. He was also a member of the elite and an adviser to the power structure.

 

Further, when he composed them Lao Tzu was an old man--an old man heading away from the activities of advising royalty, and into the quieter times of retirement. Having experienced such a situation myself, I realized that those 'senior' feelings he championed-- peace, contentment, affection, stability -- were becoming increasingly attractive to me too -- in contrast, for example, to competition, excitement, challenge and discovery. But, the fact is that since the beginning of humanity and among primates before, that latter set has been with the world, and except for those who renounce the world entirely, they will endure. From examining Chinese history at the time, they endured for Lao Tzu's clients too. Seems to me there is a time for each season, as is said.

[Marblehead]

Nice post Stan. Nice thoughts.