Taoist Tai Chi Society?

[Oolong Rabbit]

Is there anybody have an open mind to answer my question....??? Please....!!!

 

Sure if you would have given me a few minutes dude. What forms are you guys practicing that cultivates your egos so mightily?

[Oolong Rabbit]

Hi friends. Just thought I'd post a clip from an instructional video that someone posted up showing Mr. Moy doing his taoist tai chi form. I don't know for certain when this video was shot, but judging from Mr. Moy's appearance I would guess he was somewhere around 60 years old give or take a few years when this video was shot, as that is how Mr. Moy looked when he was around 60.

 

This video should give a fairly good idea of the type of stretching that Mr. Moy incorporated in his tai chi form to help people to open up their bodies more. If you look closely, you can also see how the spiral turning of the spine and extension of the spine is an important aspect of this form as well. For those looking to practice tai chi for health enhancement, any style of tai chi is no doubt good but from my own past experience Moy's 'taoist' style of tai chi is very good for helping to open up the body and for helping with chronic ailments of various types such as joint and back problems and such, and for overall health improvement.

 

Hope this link works:

http://player.vimeo.com/video/18678844

 

It's pointless brother. Their cups are all full.

[oat1239]

It's pointless brother. Their cups are all full.

 

No worries friend. We all have our own biases and we all no doubt have lots to learn. Just wanted to post some of my own personal impressions and views on this particular style of tai chi from my own past experience for anyone who might be interested, as I personally have had good results with this style of tai chi. Everyone is of course welcome to their own views and to draw their own conclusions.

[mYTHmAKER]

Is there anybody have an open mind to answer my question....??? Please....!!!

 

Why do you need to know?

[ChiDragon]

Tai Chi practitioners...

I am so curious about your comments. Based on your comments, it'll reveal how much you know about Tai Chi. Please comment on the gesture in this picture. Is that what you have learned from your Tai Chi lessens....???

[Stigweard]

Firstly please go back and read my earlier posts:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19188-taoist-tai-chi-society/page__view__findpost__p__270377

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19188-taoist-tai-chi-society/page__view__findpost__p__270632

 

I expressed both my deep respect for Master Moy as well as pointing out the bare truth that the TTCS form has been modified away from the original.

 

oat1239 tried to assert that "the self defense side of his tai chi was not compromised" and that in no way do these modifications "take away from the core benefits of tai chi."

 

In my experience from both my Mother learning the TTCS form and having TTCS instructors come to my class this is wrong because they were unable to execute even the basic of coordination exercises of the traditional practice. They were disjointed in their body, carried their weight to high, stances were too narrow and unstable, and they did not know how to establish their root.

 

This is just the plain truth. Deal with it.

 

Call me ignorant, call me arrogant, but this doesn't change the fact that the TTCS has changed the form to such an extent that it most certainly does not achieve the same outcome of the authentic Yang style Taijiquan.

 

I will however finish with my earlier comment that your knee-jerk reactions have overlooked:

 

It is very true that Master Moy has delivered a great service to the world and to many people. TTCS can be a great place for people to start their journey and for many people it can be all they require. Any art can be a portal to understanding Dao.

 

[AЯAB]

I never thought this is what would have become of my post. No matter what views we all have on the Taoist Tai Chi Society, we're all on this site for a reason and lets stick to that.

 

Much Love,

 

Arab

[Stigweard]

I never thought this is what would have become of my post. No matter what views we all have on the Taoist Tai Chi Society, we're all on this site for a reason and lets stick to that.

 

Much Love,

 

Arab

LOL and that reason is to explore the realms of truth with each other. Sometimes in that process we will disagree passionately with each other and that is as it should be. Sometimes also people will get so passionate and personally involved that they feel they need to resort to slinging personal insults like "ignorant" and "arrogant," but that is also in tune with the Dao of TheTaoBums and if you can't handle the rough and tumble then perhaps quieter waters should be sought.

 

[oat1239]

Regarding the self defense side of taoist tai chi, I think I have made it clear that anyone who had the opportunity to actually push hands with Mr. Moy Lin Shin would understand that his form contains no hindrance to the self defence aspects of tai chi. It is all a matter of what is being focused on and the level of attainment in my experience. To judge this style of tai chi based on people who have obviously not yet attained a very high level is rather silly. One could just as easily pick out students of other styles of tai chi who are not very advanced yet and use that to criticize the styles they are practicing but that makes little sense. Let's face it, few people of any style of tai chi aattain a really high level unless we are talking about places such as Chen village in CHina and such where many people grow up practicing tai chi fairly intensely from the time they are small children.

 

Here is something I found interesting regarding the many variations in form of various Yang style tai chi masters. A few years ago I was looking at tai chi videos on youtube and comparing the different form and stances and postures and way of moving of different Yang style masters and was surprised to see how much variation there really was, even though many of the forms in the videos I was looking at were apparently derived from the Yang Chen Fu form of Yang Tai Chi. I could see that some of the forms and stances and way of moving were quite a bit different than the taoist tai chi style of Mr. Moy, but when I came across a video of Fu Zhongwen (1903-1994 - student of Yang Chen Fu) doing his Yang Tai Chi form I could see that, aside from some fairly minor differences, Fu Zhongwen's tai chi form was fairly close overall to the form taught by Mr. Moy. Mr. Moy had changed or simplified some of the movements a bit, but the form was quite close overall. The main differences I could see were what I mentioned earlier in this thread. Mr. Moy had added more of an extension of the spine and more pronounced turning of the waist to the movements and he always kept the back foot at 45 degrees in the bow stance (this I believe is done this way to facilitate the spiral rotation of the spine that Moy included in his style), and Mr. Moy had added more stretching for reasons I have mentioned previously. Other than that the movements in the form and stance and way of moving in the form seems pretty close. I have posted a link previously in this thread to a video of Mr. Moy demonstrating his tai chi form. For those who might be interested, here is the video of Fu Zhongwen's Yang style form. Enjoy...

 

Edited July 8, 2011 by oat1239

[Mal]

So why would they have a picture of people doing "sloppy" form on the main website you ask? Just for arrogant people to pick apart? They certainly could have posted the national instructors doing the form, and it would look a whole lot prettier. The real reason is because one of master Moy's stated goals is to make tai chi available to all. He was doing it out of compassion. If you are unhealthy and you see someone dropping to the floor in a deep snake, it would scare the hell out of you.

 

Perhaps, fortunately these dont seem too traumatised

 

While its not my place to comment on their form, unfortunately my personal experience with the local TTCS is of them refusing to participate with other local Tai Chi clubs in celebrating World Tai Chi and Qi Gong Day.

 

Their reason? Its not an event organised by the TTCS.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I do not, personally, favor TTCS forms, however.. i appreciate the health benefits they 'can' enhance.. i am also reminded of several of their practitioners that have reported back and knee issues to me, as well.. the long and short of it is that the primary responsibility for learning falls on the student, that they research what is available, speak to other students, and choose according to their goals and understandings.. TTCS has a reputation that spans a wide range of descriptions, but.. i have personally spoken with people that derive a great sense of health and well-being from the practice, and that can't be so bad..

 

I have been judging and refereeing Taiji and pushing-Hands competitions since 2000, in fact i will be officiating at the ICMAC event here, in Orlando, this weekend, and.. in all of the years i have officiated and competed, i have never seen a TTCS competitor.. it may be that they philosophically oppose competitions, i don't know, but.. i originally competed to find out if the supportive gestures of my classmates and teachers were valid in the neutral but informed eyes of others, so.. i figure most folks are like me, so i am curious as to why TTCS people don't compete..

 

It is my personal feeling that teachers and schools should inform the public of their curriculum's intentions.. i favor Taijiquan, as traditional martial training, and i am appreciative of the health and meditative benefits that flow naturally from that practice and discipline, and.. the Taoist philosophical foundations associated with Taijiquan are excellent guidelines for a well-rounded and holistic life experience.. when the school or teacher doesn't train in the martial applications, including 'live drills', it is 'my' unsolicited and largely irrelevant opinion that the label, "Tai Chi QiGong", is an appropriate distinction.. Tai Chi is ambiguous, as i have seen fairly good Taijiquan at "Tai Chi" schools, but.. i am a huge fan of 'truth in labeling'.. the distinction of Tai Chi QiGong is not derogatory nor does it diminish the teacher's skills or the student's potentials within that skill-set.. in fact, it might be a marketing win..

 

Anyway, just some random thoughts on the matter.. Be well..

[oat1239]

I have been judging and refereeing Taiji and pushing-Hands competitions since 2000, in fact i will be officiating at the ICMAC event here, in Orlando, this weekend, and.. in all of the years i have officiated and competed, i have never seen a TTCS competitor.. it may be that they philosophically oppose competitions, i don't know, but.. i originally competed to find out if the supportive gestures of my classmates and teachers were valid in the neutral but informed eyes of others, so.. i figure most folks are like me, so i am curious as to why TTCS people don't compete..

 

Hello TzuJanLi. I personally believe this relates to what Mr. Moy's main purpose was when he emigrated to the West. My understanding is his intention was always to bring tai chi and various taoist practices and taoist philosophy to as many people as he could in the West. This was back in 1970 when a lot of people in the West were still not very familiar at all with such things. In order to reach as many people as he could, Mr Moy would allow and encourage students, some who may have only studied with him for a fairly short time, to begin teaching so as to help spread what he was teaching. This practice has brought some criticism from some people because they see people teaching the taoist tai chi style that aren't very advanced at tai chi, but Mr. Moy's main goal was to reach as many people as he could so he allowed this and compensated for this by requiring instructors to attend regular instructor's workshops to help these instructors keep advancing and to help keep them from getting too far off track. Mr. Moy would also regularly travel around to the various affiliated clubs which began branching out to give corrections and to give fuirther instruction.

 

It was because of Mr. Moy mainly wanting to focus on spreading the health benefits and personal development aspects of tai chi and various taoist practices and philosophy and also the view that competitiveness was somewhat counter to the philosophy he was teaching, the idea of entering competitions never really came up. In later years when I had moved away and I was no longer attending this organization I heard mention that taking part in competitions was made against the rules of the organization. I don't know if this is really the case but it is certainly true that it was not something that ever came up anyway when I was a member of the organization. Mostly it was widely understood that the purpose of this organization was to emphasize the health and personal development aspects of tai chi and other practices taught in the organization and most members were attracted to this organization for that reason and were generally not interested in competitions and the like anyway.

 

For many people it is just a form of healthy exercise and interesting philosophy and a good way to meet and socialize with like minded people. It is really not all that complicated. It is maybe a group with a somewhat different focus than some tai chi or martial arts clubs and which has appealed to lots of every day type people in many different countries. The reality is there are lots of people out there who are more interested in health enhancement and living a healthy lifestyle and who are not too overly concerned at all with things like competitions or who can knock down the most opponents in the shortest amount of time. It's a big world and it is always in a state of flux. Things change. Times change. Perspectives change. People's needs and interests change. It's all good. There are lots of other groups that people can join if their interests lie elsewhere. At least this is how I personally see it all anyway.

Edited July 8, 2011 by oat1239

[TzuJanLi]

Hello TzuJanLi. I personally believe this relates to what Mr. Moy's main purpose was when he emigrated to the West. My understanding is his intention was always to bring tai chi and various taoist practices and taoist philosophy to as many people as he could in the West. This was back in 1970 when a lot of people in the West were still not very familiar at all with such things. In order to reach as many people as he could, Mr Moy would allow and encourage students, some who may have only studied with him for a fairly short time, to begin teaching so as to help spread what he was teaching. This practice has brought some criticism from some people because they see people teaching the taoist tai chi style that aren't very advanced at tai chi, but Mr. Moy's main goal was to reach as many people as he could so he allowed this and compensated for this by requiring instructors to attend regular instructor's workshops to help these instructors keep advancing and to help keep them from getting too far off track. Mr. Moy would also regularly travel around to the various affiliated clubs which began branching out to give corrections and to give fuirther instruction.

 

It was because of Mr. Moy mainly wanting to focus on spreading the health benefits and personal development aspects of tai chi and various taoist practices and philosophy and also the view that competitiveness was somewhat counter to the philosophy he was teaching, the idea of entering competitions never really came up. In later years when I had moved away and I was no longer attending this organization I heard mention that taking part in competitions was made against the rules of the organization. I don't know if this is really the case but it is certainly true that it was not something that ever came up anyway when I was a member of the organization. Mostly it was widely understood that the purpose of this organization was to emphasize the health and personal development aspects of tai chi and other practices taught in the organization and most members were attracted to this organization for that reason and were generally not interested in competitions and the like anyway.

 

For many people it is just a form of healthy exercise and interesting philosophy and a good way to meet and socialize with like minded people. It is really not all that complicated. It is maybe a group with a somewhat different focus than some tai chi or martial arts clubs and which has appealed to lots of every day type people in many different countries. The reality is there are lots of people out there who are more interested in health enhancement and living a healthy lifestyle and who are not too overly concerned at all with things like competitions or who can knock down the most opponents in the shortest amount of time. It's a big world and it is always in a state of flux. Things change. Times change. Perspectives change. People's needs and interests change. It's all good. There are lots of other groups that people can join if their interests lie elsewhere. At least this is how I personally see it all anyway.

I understand that it is 'unhealthy' when you are severely beaten.. it is also unhealthy when someone challenges the 'Tai Chi' player who has no actual experience in the Martial aspect, but believes the 'hype' about 'Tai Chi'.. the misunderstandings about Tai Chi as a martial art or as a lifestyle have been a great dis-service to the long history of Taijiquan.. i am suggesting a more formal distinction.. aside from that, i have tried TTCS forms, and find them not suitable for martial applications, numerous principles are violated or completely overlooked..

 

Be well..

[oat1239]

I understand that it is 'unhealthy' when you are severely beaten..

There can be many different ways to deal with different situations.

 

it is also unhealthy when someone challenges the 'Tai Chi' player who has no actual experience in the Martial aspect, but believes the 'hype' about 'Tai Chi'..

One man's challenge is another man's foolishness. I personally try to avoid acting foolishly if I can at all help it.

 

 

.. the misunderstandings about Tai Chi as a martial art or as a lifestyle have been a great dis-service to the long history of Taijiquan..

Some people work hard to try to alleviate some of these misunderstandings but there are always those who don't want to listen or who think they know better. It is an uphill battle...

 

 

.. aside from that, i have tried TTCS forms, and find them not suitable for martial applications, numerous principles are violated or completely overlooked..

You obviouisly never had the opportunity to push hands with Mr. Moy.

 

BTW, you seem to view the term 'tai chi' negatively, or at least it seems you would like to try to give it a negative connotation, but to most people I converse with 'tai chi' in this context is just used as an abbreviation for 'tai chi chuan' (or 'taijiquan').

 

I have said a lot more on this subject than I intended so I will bow out. All anyone can do is speak from their own experience and understanding. Sometimes we may be right and sometimes we may be wrong. We all have our own perspectives and views and to me that is a good thing. By exchanging our views and ideas we can maybe help each other grow a little bit. I wish the best to everyone.

Edited July 8, 2011 by oat1239

[TzuJanLi]

 

BTW, you seem to view the term 'tai chi' negatively, or at least it seems you would like to try to give it a negative connotation, but to most people I converse with 'tai chi' in this context is just used as an abbreviation for 'tai chi chuan' (or 'taijiquan').

 

I have said a lot more on this subject than I intended so I will bow out. All anyone can do is speak from their own experience and understanding. Sometimes we may be right and sometimes we may be wrong. We all have our own perspectives and views and to me that is a good thing. By exchanging our views and ideas we can maybe help each other grow a little bit. I wish the best to everyone.

I do not view 'Tai Chi' negatively at all.. i experience its use as ambiguous, and favor less ambiguity.. As an "abbreviation of Tai Chi Chuan", a Martial Art, the vast majority of experiences i have had with 'Tai Chi' schools and practitioners, is they have no practical understanding of the Martial aspect of Tai Chi.. Tai Chi, practiced as a lifestyle based on the principles of Taijiquan, is a brilliant and welcome addition to the skill-set of a functioning person and a functioning society, but.. it should distinguish whether or not its curriculum includes the martial art referenced by its name.. again, it is 'my' unsolicited and likely irrelevant opinion, i do not speak on behalf of anyone but 'me'..

 

No, i have not crossed-hands with Mr. Moy, but i would welcome the experience..

 

Be well..

[oat1239]

I do not view 'Tai Chi' negatively at all.. i experience its use as ambiguous, and favor less ambiguity.. As an "abbreviation of Tai Chi Chuan", a Martial Art, the vast majority of experiences i have had with 'Tai Chi' schools and practitioners, is they have no practical understanding of the Martial aspect of Tai Chi.. Tai Chi, practiced as a lifestyle based on the principles of Taijiquan, is a brilliant and welcome addition to the skill-set of a functioning person and a functioning society, but.. it should distinguish whether or not its curriculum includes the martial art referenced by its name.. again, it is 'my' unsolicited and likely irrelevant opinion, i do not speak on behalf of anyone but 'me'..

 

No, i have not crossed-hands with Mr. Moy, but i would welcome the experience..

 

Be well..

Thanks for the feedback. The Chinese name for the organization includes the full 太極拳 in the name. It was just shortened to tai chi in the English name for whatever reason, maybe because that was thought to be a somewhat more recognizable term to the general public at the time, but I don't know the exact reasoning for that. Unfortunately Moy Lin Shin passed away in 1998 so there is no longer any opportunity to push hands with him. Hoping the tournament goes well this weekend...

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for the feedback. The Chinese name for the organization includes the full 太極拳 in the name. It was just shortened to tai chi in the English name for whatever reason, maybe because that was thought to be a somewhat more recognizable term to the general public at the time, but I don't know the exact reasoning for that. Unfortunately Moy Lin Shin passed away in 1998 so there is no longer any opportunity to push hands with him. Hoping the tournament goes well this weekend...

太極拳(Tai Chi Chuan) and 太極(tai chi) are the same thing. 太極 was short for 太極拳 as you've said. These two came from the same source but differ in name.

[oat1239]

太極拳(Tai Chi Chuan) and 太極(tai chi) are the same thing. 太極 was short for 太極拳 as you've said. These two came from the same source but differ in name.

Yes, understood. Thanks.

[mYTHmAKER]

太極拳(Tai Chi Chuan) and 太極(tai chi) are the same thing. 太極 was short for 太極拳 as you've said. These two came from the same source but differ in name.

 

My understanding is Tai Chi means supreme ultimate and can apply to anything i.e the tai chi of cooking

Tai Chi Chuan where chuan means fist refers to the martial art / exercise of Tai Chi Chuan.

[ChiDragon]

My understanding is Tai Chi means supreme ultimate and can apply to anything i.e the tai chi of cooking

Tai Chi Chuan where chuan means fist refers to the martial art / exercise of Tai Chi Chuan.

Yes, what you said is true, but if you are a Tai Chi Chuan practitioner, it is an esoteric term for the Tai Chi group. Please do not lump all the definitions in one thought. Besides, we are talking about Tai Chi Chuan not cooking.

 

BTW People are too lazy to say the three characters "Tai Chi Chuan", instead they preferred to say it in two characters such as "tai chi" for short.

 

The term "tai chi of cooking" was really saying "the Art of Cooking", and tai chi is really has nothing to do with cooking.

Edited July 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

Yes, what you said is true, but if you are a Tai Chi Chuan practitioner, it is an esoteric term for the Tai Chi group. Please do not lump all the definitions in one thought. Besides, we are talking about Tai Chi Chuan not cooking.

 

BTW People are too lazy to say the three characters "Tai Chi Chuan", instead they preferred to say it in two characters such as "tai chi" for short.

 

The term "tai chi of cooking" was really saying "the Art of Cooking", and tai chi is really has nothing to do with cooking.

 

Cooking was given as an example. Tai chi = supreme ultimate therefore one can have the supreme ultimate of anything.

However , now that you mention it playing tai chi chuan we are cooking our mind, body, and spirit so that one day we will be done

[ChiDragon]

Cooking was given as an example. Tai chi = supreme ultimate therefore one can have the supreme ultimate of anything.

However , now that you mention it playing tai chi chuan we are cooking our mind, body, and spirit so that one day we will be done

 

I hope it was not well done nor over cooked to the ultimate extreme.....

[godsdragon]

Hi every1. Just my two cents.

I have tried the TTCS Arts and they seem to be very much in line with the principles and practices Master Moy promoted. There is a rich and thorough lineage of Taichiquan in Master Moy's moves. I come from a Traditional Taekwondo background, and, as such, I have found that every one of the 108 moves Master Moy put together have a martial application (perhaps not everyone is aware of it in the beginning) and perhaps not everyone in the end is interested in the Martial application of what the founder intended the 108 moves to be. But, fact of the matter is the soft art is very conducive to a healthier, more balanced state of mind and body.

So far, I have a lot of respect for Master Moy's vision and accomplishments.

 

Seems to me that, as a Martial Artist, we are not to bash other styles or forms that develop a body, mind and soul that is healthy and aware of the principles martial artists are supposed to live by...

 

Thank you. Keung ye!

[thelerner]

 

My understanding is Tai Chi means supreme ultimate and can apply to anything i.e the tai chi of cooking

Tai Chi Chuan where chuan means fist refers to the martial art / exercise of Tai Chi Chuan.

True, in the same way one can claim to be a Kung Fu master .. of soup!

 

I don't think we should ever 'diss' Tai Chi schools that don't stress the martial art. They offer many benefits. Still, it's better they're upfront about it to students.

[mYTHmAKER]

True, in the same way one can claim to be a Kung Fu master .. of soup!

 

I don't think we should ever 'diss' Tai Chi schools that don't stress the martial art. They offer many benefits. Still, it's better they're upfront about it to students.

 

My response was to Chi Dragon and had nothing to do with dissing anyone or any school

 

'ChiDragon', on 08 July 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

太極拳(Tai Chi Chuan) and 太極(tai chi) are the same thing. 太極 was short for 太極拳 as you've said. These two came from the same source but differ in name.

 

mYTHmAKER, on 08 Jul 2011 - 14:43, said:

My understanding is Tai Chi means supreme ultimate and can apply to anything i.e the tai chi of cooking

Tai Chi Chuan where chuan means fist refers to the martial art / exercise of Tai Chi Chuan.