Taoist Tai Chi Society?

[AЯAB]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have read on this site that one of the first things you must do is find a teacher but I don't know how. I also want to learn some form of tai chi and I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the "Taoist Tai Chi Society"? There is a location about 5 minutes from my house but I wanted to get your feedback before I go sign up. Thank you very much (:

 

Much love,

 

Arab

[Aaron]

I haven't had any experience with them, so I can't make a recommendation, but I did find this website, perhaps it can help you make a more informed decision.

 

http://www.taoist.org/content/standard.asp

 

Aaron

 

Also, this is the website devoted to their American branches-

 

http://usa.taoist.org/

Edited July 3, 2011 by Twinner

[Immortal4life]

There's no such thing as "Taoist" Tai Chi. Many legitimate teachers of traditonal schools have stated this style of Tai Chi is a fruad. The founder of Taoist Tai Chi came to Canada, started claiming to be a Tai Chi teacher, and many of his students got back and knee problems. More here-

http://web.archive.org/web/20080330150404/http://www.taichicanada.com/page5/page5.html

“TAOIST TAI CHI”

 

One style which stands alone is called “Taoist Tai Chi” invented by the late Moy Lin Shin (Lin Shin Moy) of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. This style is not generally recognised as an authentic style of Tai Chi, but it is notable due to its popularity in many non-Chinese countries.

 

Moy may have learned Tai Chi in Hong Kong before emigrating to Canada in the late 1960’s. But there is no source for this information aside from his own unverifiable claims.

 

He is believed to have briefly studied Yang Style Tai Chi in Vancouver between 1969 and 1970 before moving to Toronto and developing his own style. Over the next several years he modified the style with an emphasis on stretching, twisting and deep knee bends, ignoring most elements and principles of traditional taijiquan. He also taught a version of Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hup Pa Fa) which has the same peculiar style of movement as “Taoist Tai Chi.”

 

He claimed to have learned from the Ching Wu society. But he was the only original source for these claims (which have never been independently verified.) The routines he taught have very little similarity to the routines passed down from the Ching Wu Society.

 

Early video footage of Moy performing Tai Chi in Toronto in the early 1970s shows movement similar to novice students of traditional Yang Style. He is known to have briefly taken classes with the highly respected master, Raymond Y.M. Chung of Vancouver, before moving to Toronto.

 

When Moy moved to Toronto he created a Fung Loy Kok Taoist Temple, and later founded the Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada. The ties between the Society and the Temple have always been very strong, and one may have funded the other.

 

Unlike the other schools of Tai Chi, Taoist Tai Chi Society students have often been discouraged from researching other styles, or interacting with other schools. The Taoist Tai Chi Society also has one of the highest attrition rate of any school. Reports from former Taoist Tai Chi instructors are that more than 90% of the students quitting within the first year. Former instructors of the Taoist Tai Chi society say that this attrition rate did not concern the founder.

 

The claims that Moy was a master, or that he “put the tai chi back in tai chi chuan” have caused a lot of eye-rolling among the wider tai chi community, as has the remarkably short time required to become an instructor, and the cult-like attitude found in the organisation. But the heavy marketing done to promote the Taoist Tai Chi society did a great deal to introduce thousands to tai chi. Many of the people who once learned “Taoist Tai Chi”, including this author, have since gone on to study traditional Tai Chi.

 

In spite of the many criticisms of the style by traditional teachers, many people claim to have benefited from the practice of Taoist Tai Chi. One reason for this may be the style’s emphasis on stretching and twisting. While some traditional tai chi masters may deride the “Taoist Tai Chi” routine, calling it “20 minutes of choreographed yawning,” this very same quality may improve the circulation of blood and lymph, as well as provide a beneficial myo-fascia release which could produce many positive health benefits. People with allergies, arthritis, and other illnesses affected by the accumulation of antigens in the body may get relief from their symptoms due to the improved toxicity levels and nutrient circulation.

 

These benefits are also found in traditional routines, but with less extreme stretching. It is the degree of stretching, twisting and leaning that concerns traditional teachers, Some point out that, unlike traditional routines, the “Taoist Tai Chi” routines get the stretch by moving through improper ranges that can aggravate back, knee, neck, and shoulder problems. It is not difficult to find traditional instructors who claim to have experience correcting the problems encountered by former students of the “Taoist Tai Chi Society”

 

Whatever the case, the Taoist Tai Chi Society has many fans and devotees, and doesn’t appear to be going anywhere anytime soon.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Oolong Rabbit]

I have been a member for five years. The form is more of a moving qigong, than a martial art which drives some purists crazy. The knowledge of instructors can vary a lot too. If you have specific questions pm me.

 

Brgds!

[Oolong Rabbit]

There's no such thing as "Taoist" Tai Chi. Many legitimate teachers of traditonal schools have stated this style of Tai Chi is a fruad. The founder of Taoist Tai Chi came to Canada, started claiming to be a Tai Chi teacher, and many of his student got back and knee problems. More here-

http://web.archive.org/web/20080330150404/http://www.taichicanada.com/page5/page5.html

 

Absolute bullshit!

 

The form is based on Yang style but modified quite a bit so he called it Taoist Tai Chi. I know people that have healed back and knee issues with the form first hand.

 

Do you have any experience with the form Immortal4life? Or are you just regurgitating heresay and vitriolic skreed?

[Immortal4life]

You can call it whatever you want, but "Taoist" Tai Chi, in this context, is still a misnomer.

 

It is widely known that pretty much any instructor of any legitimate style will tell you to stay away from the Taoist Tai chi Society. I don't need experience in the style, I have seen it. I have seen instructors in knee braces while practicing in the park. If you understand a little bit about how the body works, it is not hard to see that this form can and will cause problems. I know of several people who quit shortly after starting, and got the impression that Tai chi wasn't that great of an art. There is a reason it is not popular in China, and is only popular in the west, where many people don't know a lot about Tai chi, or what good Tai Chi is.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Immortal4life

[mewtwo]

i would say arab just try it yourself and see what your gut tells you.

 

I generaly go with the all paths lead to the same summit on the moutain aproach but there is a but as long as the path does not hurt someone or thing. So if this style really causes problems then i would not do it. I generaly stayed away from this style myself in my taichi but that is from at the time not wanting anything to do with the new age stuff only the old stuff. Also none in south dakota as far as i can tell.

 

Thanks

[AЯAB]

Thank you all for your input. I greatly appreciate all your opinions and views. Being fairly new to the way I'm quite excited which is leading me to rushing things(i.e. wanting to learn tai chi).I know I should just let things happen on there own time and not interfere. So I don't think I will be signing up for classes there anytime soon, once again thanks for all your input.

 

Much Love,

 

Arab

[Stigweard]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have read on this site that one of the first things you must do is find a teacher but I don't know how. I also want to learn some form of tai chi and I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the "Taoist Tai Chi Society"? There is a location about 5 minutes from my house but I wanted to get your feedback before I go sign up. Thank you very much (:

 

Much love,

 

Arab

Master Moy's Tai Chi serves a purpose, it gives the mainstream an opportunity to have a taste of Taoist culture and get some health benefits from their form. Just keep in mind that any practice can lead to integration if the student has the right intent.

 

In saying this though there is no question that "Taoist Tai Chi" has very much diluted the traditional practice and is a perfect example of what can happen as authentic practices get filtered through to the west. It can and has very much created a distortion around what Tai Chi is and what Daoism is.

 

One of the problems is that Master Moy deliberately removed any reference and practical application of martial arts. The result is that their stances have become too narrow and unbalanced and they operate too much from the upper body; they don't learn to connect and coordinate the body properly which pressured contact work builds. The create no Jin, no power.

 

So if you take it for what it is, i.e. a westernized calisthenic exercise with Daoist flavoring, then it's all good. Just don't confuse it with authentic traditional Taijiquan.

 

[RobB]

Hi,

 

To add balance to this very balanced set of opinions I'll say this: Run, do not walk, away from the Taoist Tai Chi Society. If you want taoism or tai chi keep looking. You won't find either there.

 

Cheers

 

Rob (been there, done that)

[Stigweard]

Hi,

 

To add balance to this very balanced set of opinions I'll say this: Run, do not walk, away from the Taoist Tai Chi Society. If you want taoism or tai chi keep looking. You won't find either there.

 

Cheers

 

Rob (been there, done that)

LOL ... not exactly what you would call "balanced", but I hear where you are coming from.

[Oolong Rabbit]

To be fair, there are things about the TTCS I certainly disagree with. You are discouraged from looking for info outside the society, concepts can get watered down for mass consumption etc... The society also operates under the old school confucian way of doing things, that can feel really alien to many westerners. At the end of the day though, a lot really depends on the quality of the instructor and your personal initiative.

 

This much I can tell you, Master Moy was the real deal. He could do many of the "super-human" things everyone here goes batshit over. Unfortunately, there was no one anywhere near his level to take the reigns after he passed. No less an authority on taoism than Eva Wong was being trained as his disciple, but they had a falling out. Master Moy eventually decided not to pass on completely his knowledge to any one person, And that for me is the most frustrating part. It can feel like you are trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together with no picture, and you are unsure of how many pieces are missing.

[oat1239]

I studied with Moy Lin Shin, the founder of the Taoist Tai Chi Society, in Toronto a number of years ago. In my experience what Mister Moy (as his English speaking students referred to him then) taught was real world down to earth taoist personal cultivation principles that ordinary every day people could adopt and put into practice, not make pretend taoism or the artificial new age hodge podge so called taoism that many people may confuse as being taoism. Mr. Moy's brand of taoism was influenced by confucianism and buddhism as well.

 

In my view Mr. Moy placed the strongest emphasis of his teaching on people helping others in order for people to help themselves open up their hearts and grow in a realistic way. My understanding is that when Mr. Moy first began teaching tai chi to Westerners in Canada, he did originally teach more of the martial arts side of tai chi for a while, but apparently quickly began to realize that he could reach out to much more ordinary every day people if he kept the emphasis on tai chi as a vehicle for health improvement and personal development and as a vehicle for ordinary people to help others in a very tangible way as well. That is not to say that the self defense side of his tai chi was compromised however, as anyone who actually studied directly with Mr. Moy and pushed hands with him can attest to, just that he placed more emphasis on the health benefits and personal growth aspects since he was a taoist and that was his main goal when he came to the West from Hong Kong. However, anyone who attended Mr. Moy's classes regularly would know that he always did place a lot of emphasis on students practicing push hands as a way to help further their understanding of tai chi principles in a practical way.

 

I believe this is also why Mr. Moy also encouraged students to start teaching tai chi when they felt ready so they could start putting the concept of helping others and being of service to others more into practice as well. Although Mr. Moy was quite advanced at tai chi and liu he ba fa, (I have pushed hands with him plus witnessed various demos of his abilities in his day to day teaching), he never ever showed off those abilities publicly. To ensure that students who began to teach his tai chi system did not diverge too far from the core principles of his tai chi, Mr Moy also put a system in place where teachers would have to attend teacher's workshops on a regular basis for corrections and to gain further emphasis and understanding of the core principles.

 

Mr Moy was not at all interested in developing 'fighters', which would only appeal to a small percentage of the population, but was interested in spreading his core taoist teachings and principles to as many people as he could manage to reach out to, and this is what he succeeded in doing as well. He was able to spread his teachings to very many people all over the world, and his international organization is still continuing in many countries today more than a decade after his death, so that was no small accomplishment.

 

In regards to the tai chi style that Mr Moy taught, it is based on Yang Style tai chi which Mr. Moy modified in various ways to make it more in line with what Mr. Moy wanted to teach and pass on to others. In my understanding from practicing this style of tai chi, the main differences in his style of tai chi as compared to classical Yang style tai chi are:

 

Much more stretching and a more pronounced turning of the waist. This is the main emphasis for beginners since practicing this way helps to open up all the meridians and tendons and joints of the body. For many Westerners, especially for ordinary every day people who may only practice once or twice a week, who Mr. Moy was trying to reach out to with his system, one might have to practice this way for many years before they had opened their bodies up enough to be able to start making their form less stretched out and open. Yes, stretching out excessively like this is not good form for fighting, but again, that was not Mr. Moy's emphasis. It is really only a stage in his system of tai chi, but realistically many every day people do not have the time or desire to practice often and regularly enough to ever advance too much beyond this stage to the next level. My understanding was one of Mr. Moy's later and primary teachers instructed Mr. Moy to add this emphasis of stretching to tai chi so that ordinary people could gain more realistic benefit from practicing tai chi. My own personal impression of this aspect of Mr. Moy's tai chi is that it is a kind of fusion of Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi principles.

 

A unique spiral turning and extension and use of the spine in the movements, which students begin to incorporate and understand more as they progress to higher levels in their training of Mr. Moy’s style of tai chi. Although Chen style has silk reeling training to train in spiral body movement training, the spiral rotation and use of the spine in Mr. Moy's style of tai chi seems different and unique to me. I never thought to ask Mr. Moy when I studied with him where exactly he got this emphasis on spiral turning and extension and use of the spine from, but presumably he got it from one of his former martial arts teachers.

 

Mr. Moy did simplify some of the Yang style movements, but not in any way that takes away from the core benefits of tai chi.

 

I have witnessed a lot of ordinary every day people with all kinds of health ailments and other problems make big improvements after practicing Mr. Moy's taoist tai chi for some time, plus I attained many benefits myself from my own practice over the years, so I can attest to the benefits of this style of tai chi. I am not interested in a debate of the subject but just wanted to present my personal impressions and understanding of Mr. Moy's style of tai chi and teachings as coming from someone who did study directly with Mr. Moy in his organization in the past. I hope that helps clarify some things for some anyway.

Edited July 4, 2011 by oat1239

[Stigweard]

I studied with Moy Lin Shin, ...

Thank you oat1239 for pitching in to provide the positives sides of the TTCS. I acknowledge the achievement of Master Moy and applaud the fact that he has made both Tai Chi and Taoist culture more accessible to a wider community.

 

I only met Master Moy once when he came to Australia to open a new school. My impression of his manner was one of sincerity and disciplined focus.

 

It is always a challenge when a teacher tries to "make the teachings more accessible". It will almost inevitably result in some sort of dilution so that it is more palatable to a greater cross-section.

 

That is not to say that the self defense side of his tai chi was compromised however.

 

Sorry but yes it has.

 

My personal observation and experience with TTTC instructors is that they have no feel for martial application whatsoever. The integralness, quanjin, of their form has thuswise suffered.

 

The emphasis on stretching, though I do understand the Yi Jin Jing benefits, and narrow stance has created a top-heavy form, they extend too far and expose their joints to chin na locks and shuai jiao take-downs. Because they are not connected properly with their root and have not linked the body together properly they are unable to transfer power properly from feet, legs, hips, waist, spine through to the fist.

 

Mr. Moy did simplify some of the Yang style movements, but not in any way that takes away from the core benefits of tai chi.

 

Again I am sorry but the TTCS form has missed some of the very basics of the Yang family form. Basics that come through pressure testing one's form through martial contact.

 

I have witnessed a lot of ordinary every day people with all kinds of health ailments and other problems make big improvements after practicing Mr. Moy's taoist tai chi for some time, plus I attained many benefits myself from my own practice over the years, so I can attest to the benefits of this style of tai chi. I am not interested in a debate of the subject but just wanted to present my personal impressions and understanding of Mr. Moy's style of tai chi and teachings as coming from someone who did study directly with Mr. Moy in his organization in the past. I hope that helps clarify some things for some anyway.

 

I certainly respect and appreciate your contribution. It is very true that Master Moy has delivered a great service to the world and to many people. TTCS can be a great place for people to start their journey and for many people it can be all they require. Any art can be a portal to understanding Dao.

 

[oat1239]

It is always a challenge when a teacher tries to "make the teachings more accessible". It will almost inevitably result in some sort of dilution so that it is more palatable to a greater cross-section.

 

Stigweard, it really seems that you are just out to bash even though it is clear that you really don't have any real direct experience and real knowledge of this style of tai chi. Based on that I will just say this:

 

Your implication seems to be that Mr. Moy diluted tai chi or taoist concepts and principles to make it more palatable to the general public, but that has no basis in fact. Mr. Moy modified the Yang style tai chi form in some ways based on his own experience and knowledge gained from his own various teachers and to emphasize the aspects of tai chi he wanted to emphasize. His teachings were not watered down but instead were very focused. More complex does not always mean better, and sometimes simple is the most direct. My experience has been that the more one progresses in their understanding, the more they will naturally begin to simplify.

 

Regarding differences. It is quite common for various tai chi masters to make the tai chi form that they have learned from one or more teachers into their own, modifying what they want to modify, emphasizing what they want to emphasize, and teaching how they want to teach. This is quite common for many tai chi masters.

 

For example, if one looks at videos on youtube of many different Yang or other style tai chi masters, one will see all sorts of variation in their form and on where they place their emphasis. Many of these masters have changed the form according to their own background and experience and preferences, but they do so based on the deep understanding of the principles and various techniques and approaches that they have learned from many years of diligent practice, sometimes after learning from several different teachers in the process.

 

No one is arguing that Mr Moy did not place more emphasis on health and personal development in his style than he did on self defence or martial arts, but Mr Moy always kept emphasis on the importance of the principles of tai chi, and for those who actually studied with him there should be little doubt that he understood those priciples well and embodied them in his teachings. Mr. Moy's tai chi is a 'new style' of tai chi which Mr. Moy chose to call taoist tai chi because of Mr. Moy's emphasis on incorporating the teaching of taoist principles in his complete system. It is no longer classical Yang style tai chi so it should not be surprising that there are differences between the two styles, just as it should not be surprising that there are differences between Chen, Yang, and Wu styles of tai chi even though these styles had a common source. I don't think anything further needs to be said. People should seek out that which is in line with their own personal purposes and goals and pursue that. If something proves suitable to a person then great, if not, move on to something else. In my view, always keeping an open mind and not passing judgement on that which we have no real knowledge of is usually a good way to proceed so that we can always stay more open to learning more and furthering our understanding. Such an approach would seem to be in keeping with tai chi principles as well.

Edited July 6, 2011 by oat1239

[GreytoWhite]

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5595

 

Here's another thread on a martial forum.

[Stigweard]

 

Enough said.

[mYTHmAKER]

 

Enough said.

 

The question would be is this a beginner or an advanced class.

[ChiDragon]

The question would be is this a beginner or an advanced class.

Tai Chi practitioners...

I am so curious about your comments. Based on your comments, it'll reveal how much you know about Tai Chi. Please comment on the gesture in this picture. Is that what you have learned from your Tai Chi lessens....???

[mYTHmAKER]

Tai Chi practitioners...

I am so curious about your comments. Based on your comments, it'll reveal how much you know about Tai Chi. Please comment on the gesture in this picture. Is that what you have learned from your Tai Chi lessens....???

 

Your comments will reveal whether you know as much as you think you do.

[oat1239]

Hi friends. Just thought I'd post a clip from an instructional video that someone posted up showing Mr. Moy doing his taoist tai chi form. I don't know for certain when this video was shot, but judging from Mr. Moy's appearance I would guess he was somewhere around 60 years old give or take a few years when this video was shot, as that is how Mr. Moy looked when he was around 60.

 

This video should give a fairly good idea of the type of stretching that Mr. Moy incorporated in his tai chi form to help people to open up their bodies more. If you look closely, you can also see how the spiral turning of the spine and extension of the spine is an important aspect of this form as well. For those looking to practice tai chi for health enhancement, any style of tai chi is no doubt good but from my own past experience Moy's 'taoist' style of tai chi is very good for helping to open up the body and for helping with chronic ailments of various types such as joint and back problems and such, and for overall health improvement.

 

Hope this link works:

http://player.vimeo.com/video/18678844

[ChiDragon]

Your comments will reveal whether you know as much as you think you do.

hehehe....

You still did not answer my question....!!!

 

PS....

Sorry, my comment wasn't aiming at you. It was to all the Tai Chi practitioners.

Edited July 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Oolong Rabbit]

 

Enough said.

 

Yup, and your arrogance speaks oodles about yoir practice too.

[ChiDragon]

Yup, and your arrogance speaks oodles about yoir practice too.

Is there anybody have an open mind to answer my question....??? Please....!!!

[Oolong Rabbit]

Your comments will reveal whether you know as much as you think you do.

 

There is no lack of poor form in that picture. Stances too narrow, hips not squarred, bent rear knees etc... But since we can judge a book by its cover, this guy must be retarded:

 

 

 

Listen up. The fact is 90% of TTC members are not serious martial artists. They practice maybe once a week, and half of them are more interested in socializing. They are probably doing the best they can based on their messed up bodies.

 

edit...

 

So why would they have a picture of people doing "sloppy" form on the main website you ask? Just for arrogant people to pick apart? They certainly could have posted the national instructors doing the form, and it would look a whole lot prettier. The real reason is because one of master Moy's stated goals is to make tai chi available to all. He was doing it out of compassion. If you are unhealthy and you see someone dropping to the floor in a deep snake, it would scare the hell out of you. If you see an average person just having fun doing the best he can you are more apt to try it.

 

 

How many fights have you guys been in where you had to rely on your martial skills? I've had 2 about 20 years ago, both of which I could easily have walked away from if I wasn't so damn proud. Health and spiritual cultivation are far more useful.

 

 

Lastly, the TTCS is not for profit charity. Its goal is to help people.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Oolong Rabbit