The case for qi?

[mewtwo]

So um I used to belive just about any video on the internet about chi. But then I saw that the russoan pyro guy was a fraud. So um do u guys belive in chi effecting the material world? If so can u site some stories.

 

Thanks

[ShaktiMama]

So um I used to belive just about any video on the internet about chi. But then I saw that the russoan pyro guy was a fraud. So um do u guys belive in chi effecting the material world? If so can u site some stories.

 

Thanks

 

 

Do your own investigation with your own chi and don't rely on anything or anyone else. Once you know who cares what other people say?

[Ya Mu]

Do your own investigation with your own chi and don't rely on anything or anyone else. Once you know who cares what other people say?

++++++++

Qi is just a word until it's reality becomes SELF-EVIDENT.

 

OP,descriptions

more here

[Sloppy Zhang]

Do your own investigation with your own chi and don't rely on anything or anyone else. Once you know who cares what other people say?

 

Sadly, while this statement may be intended to encourage people to practice more, it can also be used to cloud the issue and encourage an uncritical way of viewing the issue, allowing less than honest people to get away with all sorts of claims.

 

There's nothing wrong with mewtwo's line of questioning, and the act of looking for external confirmation of qi results (or any results, for that matter) and the act of personal practice are not mutually exclusive.

 

I find it interesting that while we may be encouraged to be a part of a community in almost all other aspects with regards to cultivation, we are so discouraged to look to others when assessing whether something like qi is as it is claimed to be.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[manitou]

Yes, I can give an example but I don't expect you to believe it. It's one of those things that you just 'know' is in alignment when it's happening to you, but if you try and describe it to another, they'll blow it off because it's in our nature to be that way. Blow this off at your own peril, lol.

 

Another woman and myself, several nights ago, performed a remote healing ceremony at the same moment in time (or the intent was this, anyway, even if the actual minutes didn't pile up exactly). She and I were in two different parts of the country. The person we performed this for was a young man who has severe emotional issues having to do with a formative female in his life; perhaps a mother, a twin, or older sister, etc. It manifests in his anger toward women and sexual obsession. We decided merely to send him a nice mature dose of female motherly love. I performed a ceremony in a mirror with a teddy bear as a proxy for him. The ceremony involved making a large circle in a darkened room with a candle under glass - to do it in the mirror is to see the contrail of the energy suddenly take form into a circle which lasts for several seconds. This is not smoke; it is perhaps the burnt image of the contrail of the flame burn upon our eyes so we can see the residual light.

Once I got the circle, I pulled the teddy bear proxy through the circle and placed the teddy bear in my arms, as though a mother carrying a child. The woman on the other end was assumedly doing something similar, something where she could actually 'feel' love emanate from her heart to her intended target. When I was holding the teddy, I felt love in my heart for the young man in question.

I decided to sleep with the teddy bear; to give it a whole night of motherly love; so I placed it under the covers with me, down close to my belly. I went to sleep with the teddy around 11:30 PM.

At 4:30 AM I was awakened rudely by my two cairn terriers (who had been sleeping with me since 11:30) and they were frantically trying to dig down in the covers to the teddy bear. It was a moment of sexual excitement for them, if any of you are familiar with how an animal acts where there is great sex going on anywhere. They seem to tune into the ecstacy vibration at some level. This is what they were doing; and the teddy bear was emitting some sort of sexual energy that they suddenly became aware of.

I can only guess what was happening at that particular moment in the young man's life....I think I know, but I won't write it here. But the point of this dissertation is that we did manage to capture the chi or essence of the young man in question and place it in the proxy. The affirmation that it 'worked' to some degree was the sexual excitement of the two puppies for absolutely no reason other than trying to dig the small teddy bear from under the covers. something was going on at that moment with that young man; this tells me that we did capture his spirit to some degree, and that our Intent for infusion of mature motherly love was heard.

[dawei]

So um I used to belive just about any video on the internet about chi. But then I saw that the russoan pyro guy was a fraud. So um do u guys belive in chi effecting the material world? If so can u site some stories.

 

Thanks

From an experimental point of view; putting Qi into food. Also, google Emoto on youtube to see his work with thoughts and water crystallized formations. It seems to support what Yang, Jwing-Ming says in one of his books that the mind is an EMF in relation to the energetic property of Qi. That Qi, say of the universe, can affect the Qi of the body seems reasonable; but that the mind can became a kind of 'first cause' intrigues me.

[ShaktiMama]

Sadly, while this statement may be intended to encourage people to practice more, it can also be used to cloud the issue and encourage an uncritical way of viewing the issue, allowing less than honest people to get away with all sorts of claims.

 

There's nothing wrong with mewtwo's line of questioning, and the act of looking for external confirmation of qi results (or any results, for that matter) and the act of personal practice are not mutually exclusive.

 

I find it interesting that while we may be encouraged to be a part of a community in almost all other aspects with regards to cultivation, we are so discouraged to look to others when assessing whether something like qi is as it is claimed to be.

 

 

looking to community is good. looking to youtube for validation, not good. Practice first them come to community with results.

[Sloppy Zhang]

looking to community is good. looking to youtube for validation, not good. Practice first them come to community with results.

 

Why such the extreme viewpoint regarding "validation"?

 

Don't scientists look to the results of other scientists to see where to go in their own projects?

 

Don't musicians look at the results of other musicians to see how they can work on their own music?

 

Don't athletes look to other athletes to see how they can improve their physical performance?

 

None of these scenarios become "looking for validation". But if you start looking around for people who can produce tangible results of qi, suddenly it's "practice on your own and quit looking for validation"?

 

If one eventually comes to the community with results, then the assumption there is that people will eventually view results. So how is it that when someone asks to see what results are available for review, the first response is "don't rely on anything or anyone else"?

 

I have seen this attitude prevalent in many metaphysical communities, and I've always found it a bit contradictory.

[doc benway]

So um I used to belive just about any video on the internet about chi. But then I saw that the russoan pyro guy was a fraud. So um do u guys belive in chi effecting the material world? If so can u site some stories.

 

Thanks

My experience is that Qi is not something "other" than me - my(self/experience/awareness/mind/body).

I experience it as a process or interaction between my sensory and conscious awareness and what I perceive to be my body, objects, space, ... Sort of like the stuff/non-stuff the universe is/is-not "made of/not-made of"

 

You know, I don't think it's accidental that Western science can't identify a "substance" which can be considered a foundation of being - only energy which is the observation or potential for change. Similarly, Qi cannot be measured or specifically identified as a "quantity" of anything by Western or Eastern methods. Dao literally means change. And the single most important word one can use to describe all of Buddhism (and I agree with thuscomeone on this, heartily) is .... drum roll...... ........ chang.

 

So stop trying to separate yourself from Qi and look at it. It doesn't exist really. Not that you can capture in a measurement.

Qi is your experience of the universe. It takes different forms based on how you tune your antennae (all your senses).

And there are additional senses that can be developed skillfully through meditation, internal martial art, qigong, and neigong practices (not to mention Yoga, Tibetan methods, prayer, etc...). Building Qi is really more a process of give and take between self and other. Focusing the antena. Stripping away distractions and obstacles.

 

Stop trying to look at it from the outside - you can't see it from the outside until you feel it on the inside, then it is completely obvious what it is and what it isn't.

 

I agree with Shaktimama and Manitou and Yamu completely.

 

Sloppy Zhang - I personally understand Qi as inseparable from awareness therefore it must be empirically validated.

Science makes approximations by excluding from it any bias created by virtue of the presence of the observer (and all scientists know this is an approximation and no one knows what the exact effects of the observer are. In fact, I think they are basically unknowable). So there is a quality of Qi that is linked to awareness that is similar to the "Uncertainty" to use Heisenberg's term. And in the internal arts and meditation we look at that specifically. And science has no language for that. Language has no language for that. The intellectual mind has to be put aside for a moment because we are dealing with the unknowable.

That is why this has to be felt, not understood.

 

I don't know if I just made any sense but it seemed to come out right...

[manitou]

I think there's a certain component to manipulating Qi, regardless of how we manage to do it, that isn't talked about much. It's the mindset of a child. It talks about this in TTC, even the Nazarene talked about having the mind of a child.

 

I don't think they're talking so much about childish things, but the innocence of the child and the child's outlook. Did you not believe in magic as a child? I think these things can be done when the pure child's mind takes over - regardless of the fear of what others would think, etc. and we definitely need to remove the critical mind or the scientists mind to have the effect we intend.

 

This seems to be the lowest common denominator for attempting Qi manipulations, in my opinion. I think the methods are neverending.

[Ya Mu]

Why such the extreme viewpoint regarding "validation"?

 

Don't scientists look to the results of other scientists to see where to go in their own projects?

 

Don't musicians look at the results of other musicians to see how they can work on their own music?

 

Don't athletes look to other athletes to see how they can improve their physical performance?

 

None of these scenarios become "looking for validation". But if you start looking around for people who can produce tangible results of qi, suddenly it's "practice on your own and quit looking for validation"?

 

If one eventually comes to the community with results, then the assumption there is that people will eventually view results. So how is it that when someone asks to see what results are available for review, the first response is "don't rely on anything or anyone else"?

 

I have seen this attitude prevalent in many metaphysical communities, and I've always found it a bit contradictory.

I see your point and have heard this quite a bit even to the point of agreeing with it just enough, after many years of refusing to do so, of putting a video on the net with youtube. In the end, though, a lot of what it attracts are assholes and idiots that send insulting emails about it; but if someone emails me and says "this does nothing for ME" I will have to agree with them. They can watch 10,000 of this and similar videos and have absolutely no understanding of qi. These videos at best stimulate interest, but really prove nothing to the person observing them, unless said person has already developed qi sensitivity. It HAS to be self-understanding and become self-evident otherwise it really has not much meaning. This is why in class I tell attendees it is not in what I SAY but in what they do with the energetics.

 

I can help MOST people feel Qi in less than 30 seconds, but without a legitimate practice it still doesn't have much meaning. It has to become our own.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I see your point and have heard this quite a bit even to the point of agreeing with it just enough, after many years of refusing to do so, of putting a video on the net with youtube. In the end, though, a lot of what it attracts are assholes and idiots that send insulting emails about it; but if someone emails me and says "this does nothing for ME" I will have to agree with them. They can watch 10,000 of this and similar videos and have absolutely no understanding of qi. These videos at best stimulate interest, but really prove nothing to the person observing them, unless said person has already developed qi sensitivity. It HAS to be self-understanding and become self-evident otherwise it really has not much meaning. This is why in class I tell attendees it is not in what I SAY but in what they do with the energetics.

 

I can help MOST people feel Qi in less than 30 seconds, but without a legitimate practice it still doesn't have much meaning. It has to become our own.

 

I agree.

 

I'm not saying people should somehow be exempt from personal practice. I can listen to music all day, but that won't help me play an instrument. At a certain point, you've got to actually do something for yourself.

 

I just don't agree with how some people take that idea to the extreme that, since you have to do it on your own, looking for people to give demos and going out and doing studies on people is a waste of time. Especially if there is a new technique out there which is a vast improvement over what we have now.

 

But as for this:

 

In the end, though, a lot of what it attracts are assholes and idiots that send insulting emails about it

 

'Tis the nature of the internet.

[doc benway]

I think there's a certain component to manipulating Qi, regardless of how we manage to do it, that isn't talked about much. It's the mindset of a child. It talks about this in TTC, even the Nazarene talked about having the mind of a child.

 

I don't think they're talking so much about childish things, but the innocence of the child and the child's outlook. Did you not believe in magic as a child? I think these things can be done when the pure child's mind takes over - regardless of the fear of what others would think, etc. and we definitely need to remove the critical mind or the scientists mind to have the effect we intend.

 

This seems to be the lowest common denominator for attempting Qi manipulations, in my opinion. I think the methods are neverending.

I wonder if your description of the child-like experience of experiencing Qi is somehow related to what I feel is stripping away the obstacles and distractions, the expectations, and yielding to the experience. I think that degree of open-ness, the vulnerability and acceptance is related to how a child interacts with the environment she has not yet labeled and categorized, and filed away under "I know that". And having faith and confidence that it is OK. It is as it should be.

[mewtwo]

I believe that chi can heal or change your way of thinking or do some stuff like living off of it and not eat or drink. I do not believe that one can fly with it.

 

When i first started this topic i was hoping for some stories to prove me wrong. Cause i would believe you guys more than say a book written by some guy would saw say milerepa flying.

 

One thing i do believe is that flying for example in the yoga sutras of patanjali it say something to the effect of mastery of the uppward energies alows one to levitate above swamps dirt and thorns. now taken at face value one would think this meens one could levitate or fly. But i believe that it meens to not let dirty or unpure things touch you and that you should live a clean life.

 

Thanks

[Otis]

My experience is that Qi is not something "other" than me - my(self/experience/awareness/mind/body).

...

I don't know if I just made any sense but it seemed to come out right...

It made a lot of sense to me.

[Otis]

I believe that chi can heal or change your way of thinking or do some stuff like living off of it and not eat or drink. I do not believe that one can fly with it.

 

When i first started this topic i was hoping for some stories to prove me wrong. Cause i would believe you guys more than say a book written by some guy would saw say milerepa flying.

 

One thing i do believe is that flying for example in the yoga sutras of patanjali it say something to the effect of mastery of the uppward energies alows one to levitate above swamps dirt and thorns. now taken at face value one would think this meens one could levitate or fly. But i believe that it meens to not let dirty or unpure things touch you and that you should live a clean life.

 

Thanks

Hi Mewtwo.

 

IME, Qi manipulation can also include the ability to shift from being very heavy, to being very light. This isn't changing physics necessarily, as it is changing balance. If I'm unbalanced, then I step down with considerable unnecessary force. The more balanced I am, the easier it is to control where my weight goes, and thus to step lightly. This is one of the great benefits that I've received from the practice of barefoot hiking.

 

In Contact Improv, a partner dance form that includes a lot of lifting, my practice cultivating balance, awareness, and ease, has led others to experience me as lighter, although I haven't lost weight.

 

So the "levitating" may be an exaggeration of someone who has learned to step so lightly, that they seem to almost be floating.

[dawei]

One thing i do believe is that flying for example in the yoga sutras of patanjali it say something to the effect of mastery of the uppward energies alows one to levitate above swamps dirt and thorns. now taken at face value one would think this meens one could levitate or fly. But i believe that it meens to not let dirty or unpure things touch you and that you should live a clean life.

There are too many stories in different cultures talking about levitation; I don't doubt it. Flying must require some incredible level of awareness/connectedness. Have you ever do the simple act of using Qi to raise your arm off a table or while laying down?

 

There is the book, Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel who spent about 30 years (?) in Tibet. She tells many interesting stories of their abilities.

[ShaktiMama]

Why such the extreme viewpoint regarding "validation"?

 

Don't scientists look to the results of other scientists to see where to go in their own projects?

 

Don't musicians look at the results of other musicians to see how they can work on their own music?

 

Don't athletes look to other athletes to see how they can improve their physical performance?

 

None of these scenarios become "looking for validation". But if you start looking around for people who can produce tangible results of qi, suddenly it's "practice on your own and quit looking for validation"?

 

If one eventually comes to the community with results, then the assumption there is that people will eventually view results. So how is it that when someone asks to see what results are available for review, the first response is "don't rely on anything or anyone else"?

 

I have seen this attitude prevalent in many metaphysical communities, and I've always found it a bit contradictory.

 

 

 

 

caveat emptor....

due diligence

 

Just speaking on my own years of experience as a genuine cultivator but people do what they want.

[Ya Mu]

..

'Tis the nature of the internet.

Ah, so true; but the net is a reflection of society.

 

OP:

Lightness?

There is such a thing. It is in our running qigong form. Flying? Haven't seen it. If I did see it I wouldn't be as impressed as seeing the smile on a patient's face when manipulating qi for healing.

 

Other

Childlike?

Yes!

[Enishi]

Speaking of flying, energy cultivation (ime) tends to lead to spontaneous lucid dreams, along with some remote viewing and mental projection skills, thus solving the desire for the freedom of flight.

 

Actual physical flying like some sort of Marvel/DC character would involve cold, wind and bugs hitting your face and eyes.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Enishi

[manitou]

I wonder if your description of the child-like experience of experiencing Qi is somehow related to what I feel is stripping away the obstacles and distractions, the expectations, and yielding to the experience. I think that degree of open-ness, the vulnerability and acceptance is related to how a child interacts with the environment she has not yet labeled and categorized, and filed away under "I know that". And having faith and confidence that it is OK. It is as it should be.

 

 

I'll bet it's the very same thing. The child-mind I am now capable of possessing, when in Awareness, is the result of 30 years of doing the same inner work you describe, only through the template of the 12 steps. It all goes to the same place. The room where all paths meet. The place where the obstacles and obstructions have been removed seems to be the onset of the child-mind. The child-mind can be accessed or not at will. It is from this position that healings are done combined with Vision.

[manitou]

Speaking of flying, energy cultivation (ime) tends to lead to spontaneous lucid dreams, along with some remote viewing and mental projection skills, thus solving the desire for the freedom of flight.

 

Actual physical flying like some sort of Marvel/DC character would involve cold, wind and bugs hitting your face and eyes.

 

 

OMG. If you haven't seen The Green Lantern in 3D yet, do so immediately! Especially you, Steve F!! We just went today to put on some 3D glasses and sit in the dark and eat popcorn. Instead, we were both blown away by the incredible amount of metaphor there was for every single thing we talk about on this forum....from energy, to intent, to will....Everything. Even the green energy ball they kept manifesting is a beautiful visualization for the qi ball - to say nothing of the 'collective' ownership and stewardship of the Qi. I found this movie wonderful.

Edited July 4, 2011 by manitou

[doc benway]

 

So the "levitating" may be an exaggeration of someone who has learned to step so lightly, that they seem to almost be floating.

I practice neigong that is said to lead to extreme lightness, agility, and even levitation.

I know it works - the lightness and agility, at least.

 

Levitation? Only one way to find out.... keep practicing!

 

[zerostao]

I practice neigong that is said to lead to extreme lightness, agility, and even levitation.

I know it works - the lightness and agility, at least.

 

Levitation? Only one way to find out.... keep practicing!

 

 

steve f , keep practicing for sure, and if you need a magic plant that would help with that let me know (on the DL )

i also liked Otis' post and his sharing experience.

we do alot of barefoot hiking in kentucky and in the south in general.

in florida i went a year without shoes( i had a bit of a hippie gf at the time )

 

((and i agree with those who point out that when talking to someone who has never experienced for themself

what it is you are trying to describe it is rather challenging and use of metaphor , or what one would think

is metaphor can be somewhat useful but still manages to come up short))

idk, maybe 3 years ago? me and a friend

were watching the Veria channel and there was this Kurt Johnson yoga show, in the early episodes

Kurt had a move he called "float back" and it certainly appeared that he was floating back.

after a few shows Kurt changed the move and name to "step back" and it looked like he was merely stepping back

and no longer floating.

i have been a little curious about this. did someone tell him that he shouldnt

be floating on tv? censorship sucks

 

edit> link for veria and kurt

http://www.veria.com/yoga-for-life.html

Edited July 5, 2011 by zerostao

[Mattimo]

++++++++

Qi is just a word until it's reality becomes SELF-EVIDENT.

 

OP,descriptions

more here

 

Agreed.