Lao Tzu 342 - 312 BC

[lienshan]

I think that if Lao Tzu really existed according to the stories told of him

Hanfeizi 280-233 BC quotes Shen Dao:

 

"It is on this basis that I know that the strategic advantage (shi) of position is enough to rely on, and that wisdom and worthiness are not worth admiring. Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind. Though you are yourself unworthy, your orders are carried out due to the people's duty to assist you."

 

Lao Tzu is too quoting Shen Dao in the lines 1 and 3 of the Guodian chapter 19:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

Shen Dao was engaged as a teacher during the reign of Xuanwang 342-324 BC

The Guodian Tao Te Ching was burried 312 BC

 

That'll say Lao Zhu was alive writing chapter 19 between 342 BC and 312 BC

[Marblehead]

Ha!

 

Ain't no way I am going to agree with you.

 

Lao Tzu is older than that.

 

Remember that Chuang Tzu wrote about Lao Tzu being Confucius' older contemporary.

 

Chuang Tzu lived between 369 and 286 BC.

 

Confucius lived between 551 and 479 BC.

 

No, I don't have any proof better that that. Hehehe.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Marblehead

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hanfeizi 280-233 BC quotes Shen Dao:

 

"It is on this basis that I know that the strategic advantage (shi) of position is enough to rely on, and that wisdom and worthiness are not worth admiring. Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind. Though you are yourself unworthy, your orders are carried out due to the people's duty to assist you."

 

Lao Tzu is too quoting Shen Dao in the lines 1 and 3 of the Guodian chapter 19:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

 

These ideas are pretty basic to Taoism, and Lao Tzu could have been influenced by people as far back as 2696–2598 BCE when the Yellow Emperor was being instructed on Taoism by Ch'i Po. Lao Tzu was also said to be the "keeper of the imperial library" so he would have had plenty to read by 550 BC I'm sure...

Edited July 7, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[lienshan]

If these four paroles are not Shen Dao quotes:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

But Lao Zhu's own paroles written before 479 BC,

then please explain their wisdom to me?

 

I'm serious! They do not match other chapters?

[Marblehead]

If these four paroles are not Shen Dao quotes:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

I have a big problem with this.

 

I don't think Lao Tzu suggested we abandon wisdon although he did suggest that we abandon the false knowledge of the moral teachers.

 

I can't think of a single place where he suggests we abandon worthiness. Yes, Chuang Tzu suggested doing so but that was for a specific purpose - to be worthless so that others do not use us up.

 

I don't think he suggested doing away with expertise. In fact, we are told that we should learn the ways of nature and therefore the Way of Tao.

 

Survival is a key concept in Taoism. Having an advantage (wisdom) so that we do not put ourself in harm's way is very beneficial indeed.

 

A paragraph from Wikipedia:

 

The most noteworthy aspect of Shen Dao's philosophy is the fact that it represented a synthesis of Taoist Legalist thought. While these two schools may seem quite opposed to each other in some regards, they both share a view of nature as a fundamentally amoral force, and by extension, reality as an arena without set moral imperative - a stance that differentiates both schools from Confucianism.

 

Perhaps Shen Dao has his Taoism confused?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If these four paroles are not Shen Dao quotes:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

But Lao Zhu's own paroles written before 479 BC,

then please explain their wisdom to me?

 

I'm serious! They do not match other chapters?

 

It's like a lot of things in the Lao Tzu that say not to cling to the externals, since achieving the internal harmony will be the true achievement and the other things (wisdom, worthiness, advantage, expertise) will develop on their own, and these things are only the true forms when arising from an internal harmony. If they are created without that internal harmony, then they are nothing to be admired since they don't include the great achievement of a sagely mind and heart, an achievement which transcends the others, and also pales them in comparison.

[Aaron]

If these four paroles are not Shen Dao quotes:

 

Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness.

Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness.

 

But Lao Zhu's own paroles written before 479 BC,

then please explain their wisdom to me?

 

I'm serious! They do not match other chapters?

 

You could ask, who was quoting who?

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

It's like a lot of things in the Lao Tzu that say not to cling to the externals, since achieving the internal harmony will be the true achievement and the other things (wisdom, worthiness, advantage, expertise) will develop on their own, and these things are only the true forms when arising from an internal harmony. If they are created without that internal harmony, then they are nothing to be admired since they don't include the great achievement of a sagely mind and heart, an achievement which transcends the others, and also pales them in comparison.

 

Beautifully spoken!

[Marblehead]

You could ask, who was quoting who?

 

Aaron

 

Hehehe.

 

(Or misquoting who?)

[lienshan]

You could ask, who was quoting who?

Shen Dao's arguement was: "Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind." That'll say, one's strategic position (shi) is superior to knowledge, trustworthy, expertice and advantageousness.

 

If Lao Zhu is quoting Shen Dao, then it's because he doesn't agree, and Lao Zhu's chapter 19 must therefore be read/translated as argueing against Shen Dao's "strategic position" slogans.

 

If Shen Dao is quoting Lao Tsu, then is "Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness, Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness" explained with arguements in chapter 19 or elsewhere?

 

But I can't find any explanation or arguement? Where's the logic?

 

"Terminate expertice" e.g. how do you explain to the many practioneers of Tai Chi and other techniques promoted and practiced by many users on The Tao Bums, that they according to Lao Tzu shall "Terminate expertice"?

Edited July 8, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

 

But I can't find any explanation or arguement? Where's the logic?

I've found it: Chapter 19 preceeds in the Guodian Tao Teh Ching chapter 66:

 

That which allows the rivers and seas to serve as kings of the small valley streams,

Is their ability to be below the small valley streams.

Therefore, they can serve as the kings of the small valley streams.

 

Shen Dao's strategical position is above and Lao Tzu's is below.

[Marblehead]

 

Shen Dao's strategical position is above and Lao Tzu's is below.

 

And Sun Tzu would take the high ground as he would be trying to 'over'come his foe. Lao Tzu would take the low ground offering support and firm grounding.

 

The goal determines what position one should assume.

[lienshan]

The goal determines what position one should assume.

The goal determining is tactics; your strategical position is a choice!

 

high or low?

 

If you choose high then you can terminate wisdom and expertise because:

"Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high,

one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind."

 

But can you too terminate wisdom and expertise if you choose low?

[Marblehead]

But can you too terminate wisdom and expertise if you choose low?

 

But my dear friend, I have no intention of terminating wisdon and expertise. That was your suggestion, not mine.

 

But yes, if we choose the low position we are submitting ourself to others which would require giving up wisdom and expertise. If on chose high then one would maintain their wisdom and expertise. (But we don't necessarily have to show it.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It looks to me like Shen Dao is saying "when you have high rank, people will do what you say no matter what because they are obliged to you, so get high rank and you can manipulate people regardless of your personal development."

 

Lao Tzu is saying "when you have virtue, people will follow you and thus you don't need to manipulate people into doing what you want them to, nor will you have to deal with the consequences of being a manipulative person (such as loosing the freedom afforded by living with sincerity and compassion)."

 

They both have to do with having people act as you wish, but Lao Tzu wants people to act in harmony with their spirit and each other, whereas Shen Dao wants people to do what he wants them to regardless of the consequences.

[lienshan]

I have no intention of terminating wisdon and expertise. That was your suggestion, not mine.

You are insulting me!

"terminating wisdon and expertise" was not my suggestion,

but me quoting Lao Tzu, who was quoting Shen Dao!

 

Or are You flattering me? Quoting Shen Dao quoting Lao Tzu?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

"Terminate expertice" e.g. how do you explain to the many practioneers of Tai Chi and other techniques promoted and practiced by many users on The Tao Bums, that they according to Lao Tzu shall "Terminate expertice"?

 

"Terminate expertise" is just suggesting naturalness -- when you get into a fight you don't start doing a kata.. you forget what you learned and just act. [edit: well, if you are a master anyway. Bruce Lee put it: approximately "learn the techniques, then when you discard the technique you have all the techniques available to you in an instant"]

 

Its the same with Taoist virtues -- you don't do them because they are the rules, you do them because you are naturally inclined to do them when you cultivate the sagely spirit. When naturalness is lost, then the rules are needed to keep people from being fearful and selfish, but when people are natural -- they are automatically benevolent as it is part of the nature of "naturalness." Thus, abandon technique and know naturalness.

 

However, naturalness is also an approximation which is easily misunderstood when people see selfishness and every existing behavior as "human nature," but this is not the same meaning as the Taoist and Buddhist naturalness.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

"terminating wisdon and expertise" was not my suggestion,

but me quoting Lao Tzu, who was quoting Shen Dao!

 

Or are You flattering me? Quoting Shen Dao quoting Lao Tzu?

 

That was probably me quoting Lao Tzu

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I suspect that Shen Dao was also quoting Lao Tzu's ideas to make his own ideas more palatable and interesting to scholars who might say "oh look, another technique of dealing with wisdom, worthiness, etc... maybe Shen Dao has the answer." I would bet Confucius had something reflective of the same thing, which would bring Shen Dao to discuss and counter the ideas this way and vie for philosophical/political status.

[Marblehead]

You are insulting me!

"terminating wisdon and expertise" was not my suggestion,

but me quoting Lao Tzu, who was quoting Shen Dao!

 

Or are You flattering me? Quoting Shen Dao quoting Lao Tzu?

 

Hehehe. Just poking at you. Or was Shen Dao quoting Lao Tzu?

 

Actually, I am just messing with your quotes of Shen Dao because I am sure, in the deepest recesses of my heart, (my mind too) that Lao Tzu would never say "terminate wisdon". Yes, he did say 'eliminate knowledge' but he was speaking specifically to the knowledge of those who wish to manipulate the nature of man.

[Marblehead]

"Terminate expertise" is just suggesting naturalness -- ...

 

Good. I wish I would have said that.

[lienshan]

"Terminate expertise" is just suggesting naturalness -- when you get into a fight you don't start doing a kata.. you forget what you learned and just act. [edit: well, if you are a master anyway. Bruce Lee put it: approximately "learn the techniques, then when you discard the technique you have all the techniques available to you in an instant"]

Your Bruce Lee quote sounds reasonable to me if it indicates:

 

Only one having wisdom is able to terminate wisdom.

Only one having expertice is able to terminate expertice.

[lienshan]

but he was speaking specifically to the knowledge of those who wish to manipulate the nature of man.

Dear friend, how do you know that?

[ChiDragon]

Your Bruce Lee quote sounds reasonable to me if it indicates:

 

Only one having wisdom is able to terminate wisdom.

Only one having expertice is able to terminate expertice.

 

I have no wisdom and expertise to terminate but myself....

[Marblehead]

Dear friend, how do you know that?

 

It's in the book somewhere.