Yin-Yang Concept in Tai Chi Chuan

[mYTHmAKER]

You can also call it Ting Jin 聽勁 Listening Energy

 

[ChiDragon]

Steve and Stigweard...

 

Do you have your students extend their arms or legs fully doing practice....???

Edited July 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Can anyone please post a video of real combat where this has been applied? It frustrates me that we only ever see set up demonstrations where the assistant is obviously compliant.

 

Tai Chi Sparring

Edited July 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

This is a combat in pushing hands....

 

Erm ... no ... that is a push-hands comp that is focusing only on one particular combat scenario.

 

This is combat:

 

[doc benway]

Steve and Stigweard...

 

Do you have your students extend their arms or legs fully doing practice....???

Do you mean to lock out the knees and elbows in full extension?

No, definitely not in form practice.

I also would avoid it in pushing hands and self defense practice unless absolutely necessary.

In self defense, you do whatever is necessary but locking the knees or elbows is a defect and can cause injury or allow the opponent to get a Qin Na more easily.

[ChiDragon]

Do you mean to lock out the knees and elbows in full extension?

No, definitely not in form practice.

I also would avoid it in pushing hands and self defense practice unless absolutely necessary.

In self defense, you do whatever is necessary but locking the knees or elbows is a defect and can cause injury or allow the opponent to get a Qin Na more easily.

Thank you...!!!

What is Qin Na, is 擒拿....???

In general practice but not in combat, why is so important that the arms and legs are not fully extended or lock out in Tai Ji Chuan...???

How do you consider yourself that you are being Fa Jin...???

Edited July 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Thank you...!!!

What is Qin Na, is 擒拿....??? Seizing and grappling techniques - joint locking

 

In general practice but not in combat, why is so important that the arms and legs are not fully extended or lock out in Tai Ji Chuan...??? Then you would not be Song and you would not be able to use the Yi to guide the Qi.

 

How do you consider yourself that you are being Fa Jin...??? I don't understand the question, sorry

 

So since I answered your questions, how about mine from earlier in the discussion? I'll repeat it here:

 

Why use Fa Jin? Why is short force necessary and why is it the primary offensive tactic in Tai Ji Quan?

[ChiDragon]

So since I answered your questions, how about mine from earlier in the discussion? I'll repeat it here:

 

Why use Fa Jin? Why is short force necessary and why is it the primary offensive tactic in Tai Ji Quan?

I think the reason that we are having this kind of line of questioning is because the we aren't sharing the same definition about Fa Jin. By the Chinese definition as I had indicated before,

 

What is the difference between Li(力) and Jin(勁)...???

 

These two terms describes the difference in body strength.

1. Li is the natural body strength of a normal ordinary person.

2. Jin is the developed body strength of a Tai Chi practitioner.

 

Since the definition of Jin was developed by the continuous Tai Ji practice, the Li becomes Jin in a Tai Ji body. Therefore, the exerted strength by a Tai Ji practitioner was Jin not Li; as oppose to an ordinary person, the exerted strength was Li not Jin. In other words, at any instant in time, any force exerted by a Tai Ji practitioner was Jin and considered to be Fa Jin(發勁).

 

In our discussion, by your description that Fa Jin was taken place only occasionally.

Therefore, I can understand why you did not understand my question.

 

How do you consider yourself that you are being Fa Jin...??? I don't understand the question, sorry

 

In the video, the instructor must have used Fa Jin in order to have his student fall back so far. Otherwise, the student would have had been fell back a lot shorter. BTW You had said that the instructor did not use Fa Jin which tells me that you have a different conception about Jin or Fa Jin.

Edited July 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Why use Fa Jin? Why is short force necessary and why is it the primary offensive tactic in Tai Ji Quan?

 

To answer this question, I think this is the Wing Chun concept by Fa Jin in a short distance. Fa Jin can pull the muscle tissue away from the body of the opponent. It was a little more violent. The Fa Jin in a shot distance concept was to damage the most vulnerable area of the opponent before he knew it was coming. By the time he realizes it, then it was too late.

 

As in Tai Ji, it is not a matter of short distance rather than body contact. The goal in Tai Ji is to stay away from the opponent. If no body contact, then there is no counterattack. However, if there was a body contact, the goal was to get the opponent off balance but causing no damage to his body. This was considered to be the virtue of martial arts by not having an intention to hurt anyone.

[Informer]

What is Tai Ji Chuan(TJC) all about...??? What is Tai Ji...??? It means the "great ultimate", literally, but in Tai Ji Chuan it simply means Yin-Yang as a whole. Thus one cannot be detached from the other. If we look at the Tai Ji symbol, we see a white fish and a black fish with an eye in opposite color. The white fish designated as Yang and the black one as Yin. The black eye in the white fish signifies that there is a little Yin in Yang and vice versa.

 

The two fishes are in a circle signifies a perpetual circular motion. Here is where the Yin-Yang concept comes into play in TJC. At the beginning, a Tai Ji student knew nothing about Tai Ji; let's considered that the student was in the Yin level and the advanced level is at the Yang level. At the Yin level, the student just follow the basic movements and let the muscles adjust to the new stresses which being exerted to the body. The muscles will be sore in the next three months or so because the initial state of the body was in the weakest state or the Yin state. After six months or so, the muscles are getting stronger from the Yin state goes to the Yang state.

 

At the Yin state, the regular body strength was called li(力). At the Yang state, the muscles have more strength which called Jin(勁). Jin4 is many many times greater than the li. The ultimate goal of Tai Ji was to build up the Jin in the muscles. Hence, a Tai Ji practitioner can "fa jin". Fa Jin(發勁), literally, means exerting a tremendous force much greater than the regular strength(li).

 

Accuracy of the movements is insignificant at the beginning level. The main thing is learn the gestures and let the body parts adjust to the movements. As the practice goes along, the movements will become natural for the arms and legs. Hence, the body will correct the movements by itself. The more refine correction will be taken place at the higher level to reach perfection.

 

Note:

This is just an introduction; I will go into how the Yin-Yang concept was applied to the practice later.

 

Since the symbols are both fish, is it water that they are swimming in, but you can't see it?

 

Like instead of being the yin or yang, be the formless form, or the water that you can't see that is holding and encompassing both of the aspects.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Informer

[doc benway]

I think the reason that we are having this kind of line of questioning is because the we aren't sharing the same definition about Fa Jin. By the Chinese definition as I had indicated before,

 

 

 

Since the definition of Jin was developed by the continuous Tai Ji practice, the Li becomes Jin in a Tai Ji body. Therefore, the exerted strength by a Tai Ji practitioner was Jin not Li; as oppose to an ordinary person, the exerted strength was Li not Jin. In other words, at any instant in time, any force exerted by a Tai Ji practitioner was Jin and considered to be Fa Jin(發勁).

 

In our discussion, by your description that Fa Jin was taken place only occasionally.

Therefore, I can understand why you did not understand my question.

You misquoted me. This is what I said about Fa Jin:

"it the primary offensive tactic in Tai Ji Quan"

Jin simply means force or energy. There are many types used in Tai Ji Quan.

Fa Jin is explosive, short energy.

There is a very specific reason why it is the primary offensive weapon in Tai Ji Quan.

 

 

In the video, the instructor must have used Fa Jin in order to have his student fall back so far. Otherwise, the student would have had been fell back a lot shorter. BTW You had said that the instructor did not use Fa Jin which tells me that you have a different conception about Jin or Fa Jin.

You again misquoted me. This is what I said:

"Much of the "fajin" in that video was the younger student making the older master look good.

He was being a good demo partner, not an opponent.

You cannot really know if what you are seeing in a video is fajin or not.

You can certainly feel the difference, however."

You assume you were seeing Fa Jin in the video, I am a skeptic.

I would agree that the instructor was applying some degree of Fa Jin, however, to me the student looked like he was cooperating and exaggerating the force for the audience. Frequently, demonstrations of Fa Jin are really just Li with a cooperative partner.

 

 

 

To answer this question, I think this is the Wing Chun concept by Fa Jin in a short distance. Fa Jin can pull the muscle tissue away from the body of the opponent. It was a little more violent. The Fa Jin in a shot distance concept was to damage the most vulnerable area of the opponent before he knew it was coming. By the time he realizes it, then it was too late.

 

As in Tai Ji, it is not a matter of short distance rather than body contact. The goal in Tai Ji is to stay away from the opponent. If no body contact, then there is no counterattack. However, if there was a body contact, the goal was to get the opponent off balance but causing no damage to his body. This was considered to be the virtue of martial arts by not having an intention to hurt anyone.

Are you familiar with 粘黏連隨不丟頂?

This is why Fa Jin is the primary weapon in Tai Ji Quan.

It is a practical matter, that's all.

[Stigweard]

Just jumping in to say that I haven't had time to join in the fun properly, but I have been reading and enjoying the exchange.

 

[ChiDragon]

Are you familiar with 粘黏連隨不丟頂?

This is why Fa Jin is the primary weapon in Tai Ji Quan.

It is a practical matter, that's all.

 

As soon one touched the opponent, one stays in contact by sticking and following him with the head always upright.....???

Edited July 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

As soon one touched the opponent, one stays in contact by sticking and following him with your head always upright.....???

It is the last line of the 打手歌 Da Shou Ge, usually translated as Pushing Hands Song, one of the Tai Ji Classics.

It goes Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding which means something like Stick, Adhere, Connect, Follow, Never Separate or Go Against.

These are generally considered the fundamental skills needed for Tai Ji Quan application. Once you make contact with your opponent you never separate and you don't resist. Because I am always stuck to my opponent there is no other way to attack than Fa Jin. To use a longer force, I would have to separate so I would violate Bu Diu. Therefore I strike from a position of contact and Fa Jin is the way to generate meaningful power at close range.

 

Here is a good link to more information.

[minkus]