[TTC Study] Chapter 48 of the Tao Teh Ching

[rene]

"the one who knows" is just like the rising sun; people are blinded when looking.

Therefore do sages copy the setting sun half below the horizon enlightening people.

This specific way of copying nature when promoting Dao is called "wu wei".

 

lovely, lienshan

 

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

lovely, lienshan

 

 

warm regards

 

Yes. Very nice.

[dawei]

In classic text, "wang" and "wu" are interchangeable as "none" which implies that something that "does not exist". Hence, There was no difference between "wang wei" and "wu wei". "wang wei" was, only, a more classic way of writing.

 

According to professor Edwin George Pulleyblank, the classical chinese grammar expert, was the negative "wang" used without an object and the negative "wu" with an object, corresponding to their verbal meanings "to disappear" and "to not have".

 

The term "wang wei" might thus be understood as "not doing" (doing = verb)

The term "wu wei" might thus be understood as "no doing" (doing = noun)

At some point, the simple explanations are too simple (ie: silly).

 

Yes, they are interchangeable, even when both words are used in a single sentence. (亡-wang , 無-wu). Ergo, they have some separate use even if translated the same.

 

亡，吾無道: No, I have no particular way. -- Tr. Legge, 田子方 - Tian Zi-fang (Zhuang Zi)

 

but 亡 seems much more flexible in context:

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/tian-zi-fang?searchu=%E4%BA%A1&searchmode=showall#n2872

亡 as destroyed and destruction. -- Tr. Legge

 

Meaning in Context rules... not grammar alone.

Edited July 17, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

亡，吾無道: No, I have no particular way. -- Tr. Legge, 田子方 - Tian Zi-fang (Zhuang Zi)

According to professor Edwin George Pulleyblank, the classical chinese grammar expert, was the negative "wang" used without an object and the negative "wu" with an object, corresponding to their verbal meanings "to disappear" and "to not have".

I think that Legge translates the line as explained by the professor ("No" = "lost").

 

"wang wei" meaning disappearing being is now tense of the verb "wang" to disappear.

"wu wei" meaning disappearing being is future tence of the verb "wu" to not have.

"wang wei" meaning disappeared being is past tense of the verb "wang" to disappear.

"wu wei" meaning disappeared being is now tence of the verb "wu" to not have.

Yes, they are interchangeable, even when both words are used in a single sentence.

I think that I have given a reasonable explanation of how 亡 wang and 無 are interchangeable.

 

The two last lines of the Guodian chapter 48 viewed grammatically:

 

4th line 以至亡為也

5th line 亡為而亡不為

 

也 marks the 4th line as a subordinate (to the 3th line) clause.

以至 is a special (and therewith onwards to) term, similar to 以下 (and therewith downwards to)

而 connects (and) two verbal phrases; the first phrase is temporally preceeding the last phrase.

 

Most translators read 為 as meaning "making/doing", but Pulleyblank writes about 為 as "being":

 

"Apart from the verbless noun predicate construction, the verb wei 為 "make, do" can be used as a copula in the sense of "to be". A formal difference between 為 "make, do" and 為 "be" is that an interrogative pronoun must precede the former as its object by the general rule for such pronouns with transitive verbs, while an interrogative pronoun follows the latter as its subjective complement."

 

亡為 means thus "disappearing being" = is going to have no being

亡不為 means thus "disappeared not being" = comes into being (a double negative = a positive)

 

The sun is setting and becomes visibly (the first phase is temporal preceeding the last phase)

 

Meaning in Context rules... not grammar alone.

I read Tao Teh Ching my way; Others read Tao Teh Ching their way; I can't see the problem.

 

PS. But wei 為 in line 2 phrase 為道者 (one who does Dao) is the verb "make, do".

者 stands for the inplicit subject and interrogative pronoun of the verb.

Edited July 18, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

That's a horrible translation. Sorry, but that's just the way I feel about it.

(You wouldn't want me to lie and say I think it is beautiful, would you?)

Thanks for your feedback; here's instead a beauty:

 

The Guodian chapter 48

 

The wise is the rising of the sun.

He lets Tao set the sun.

Setting and his farther setting.

Down to and his job done.

Job done and his not undone.

 

 

It's important to understand the three "and"s when reading my translation.

 

The "and" of line 5 is too a chinese character "er".

"er" makes "Job done" temporally preceede "his not undone".

 

The "and"s of line 3 and 4 are omitted characters in the chinese text,

because the first phrases doesn't temporally preceede the last phrases.

Edited July 19, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Thanks for your feedback; here's instead a beauty:

 

I don't know Lienshan. Bringing the sun into this I think has cause more confusion than clarification.

[lienshan]

Bringing the sun into this I think has cause more confusion than clarification.

The chinese character 日 in line 1 and 2 means "the sun" so why not?

 

I've made some corrections due to logic: The wise isn't the sun and he can't order Dao!

 

What looks strange is the chinese order of the characters "sun to rise" and "sun to set" (noun before verb). They can't be "noun noun" or "verb verb" because the lines would if so end with a 也 character similar to line 4. Rhetorical questions can according to Pulleyblank be indicated by the use of reversed order of characters, so:

 

Does the wise arise the sun?

Does he make Dao set the sun?

It sets after his farther setting.

It sets down after his job done.

It's job done before his not undone.

 

I've inserted "before" and "after" instead of "and" due to their temporal meaning.

Edited July 20, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

I read the Guodian chapter 48 as two questions with two answers:

 

Does the wise arise the sun?

It sets after his farther setting.

Does he make Dao set the sun?

It sets down after his job done.

It's job done before his not undone.

 

By the way, one of the reasons why I am so focused on translating this brilliant written chapter 100% correct is, that the third line corresponds to the nineth line of Tao Teh Ching chapter one, when the character 損 "to set" is replaced by the character 玄 "to darken" ("mystery" in your vocabulary). It might help reading the chapter one line correct?

Edited July 20, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

 

Does the wise arise the sun?

Does he make Dao set the sun?

It sets after his farther setting.

It sets down after his job done.

It's job done before his not undone.

 

 

Does the Sage cause the rising of the sun?

Does he cause Tao to cause the sun to set?

It (the sun) rises and sets on its own.

It does so without the Sage doing anything.

The Sage has done nothing yet the sun has done its job.

 

 

However, this has no relationship to Henrick's translation of the lines:

 

 

1 Those who [toil at] their studies increase day after day;

2 Those who practice the Way, decrease day after day.

3 They decrease and decrease,

4 Until they reach the point where they do nothing at all.

5 They do nothing, yet there is nothing left undone.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Marblehead

[lienshan]

[Marblehead]

[lienshan]

I like this last version a lot better.

OK ... but check out the logic of the "after" and "before" lines.

I'm still not 100% sure regarding the last line.

 

The teaching, that what's teached, is the "Great Dao" doctrine!

Or more specific: the "Great One" 太一 doctrine known from a text of the teaching:

"the Great One generates water" 太一生水 (A script attached to the Guodian Tao Teh Ching bundle C)

 

Laozi had a choice and picked the character 益 "yi" as the last character of line 1.

This character meant according to Shuo Wen:

 

owerflowing - the thought of a container with water

 

so my "magnified" = 益 is maybe not the right pick?

Edited July 20, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

OK ... but check out the logic of the "after" and "before" lines.

I'm still not 100% sure regarding the last line.

 

 

Yes, you have the action of Tao and the non-action of the sage both in that last line but have not defined who did or didn't do what. I knew what you were pointing at but anyone else would probably say "WTF!"

[lienshan]

Well, let's check if the Guodian chapter 48 relates to 大一生水 (the Great One generates water)

 

http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm

 

The most interesting are the slips 9, 10-12 at the bottom of the page.

 

益 occur twice on slip 9 translated "benefit"; but "increase" in Henricks chapter 48 translation.

 

道 and 名 "Tao and name" is the main subject of the slips 10-12

道者 is in my translation "Tao" (the name Tao) because 者 can nomilize a character as a Name.

[Marblehead]

Well, let's check if the Guodian chapter 48 relates to 大一生水 (the Great One generates water)

 

http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm

 

The most interesting are the slips 9, 10-12 at the bottom of the page.

 

益 occur twice on slip 9 translated "benefit"; but "increase" in Henricks chapter 48 translation.

 

道 and 名 "Tao and name" is the main subject of the slips 10-12

道者 is in my translation "Tao" (the name Tao) because 者 can nomilize a character as a Name.

 

But slips 9 & 10-12 relate to Chapter 64. That's all about water.

 

Remember, I can't do the technical stuff. All I can do is look at the logic of what has been translated by others.

[lienshan]

Remember, I can't do the technical stuff.

I know, so here is the Guodian 48 and the relevant "Great One" lines translated:

 

The teaching is daily magnified.

Does it make Dao set the sun?

It sets after its farther setting.

It sets down after its job done.

It is job done before its not undone.

 

While Tao too is its character, is early dawn its name,

because Tao accompanies, what's its duty, surely rely on its name.

Old duty done and itself prolonged.

What's the accompany duty of the sage also rely on its name.

Old duty done and himself not boned.

 

道亦其字也青昏其名

以道從事者必托其名

古事成而身長

聖人之從事也亦托其名

古功成而身不剔

 

Hope the characters are visible to them that want to check my translation?

[dawei]

Or more specific: the "Great One" 太一 doctrine known from a text of the teaching:

"the Great One generates water" 太一生水 (A script attached to the Guodian Tao Teh Ching bundle C)

 

Laozi had a choice and picked the character 益 "yi" as the last character of line 1.

This character meant according to Shuo Wen:

 

owerflowing - the thought of a container with water

 

so my "magnified" = 益 is maybe not the right pick?

[為]學者日益

為道者日損

 

I am probably getting too picky over the first two lines but they follow a pattern of:

First characters - same (some action taking place); although missing from the Guodian, as Hendricks says, parallelism demands it. I agree.

Second characters: Opposite (precept vs natural)

Third characters: same (those who, of line 2)

Fourth character: same (day)

Fifth Characters: Opposite (benefit vs harm)

 

SO introducing "Sun" makes no sense, although permission.

 

Also, the last character is possibly treated as a compound with 'daily'. The first one meaning "day by day" to imply continuity. The second would then mean discontinuity; a break (in days).

 

First is some action:

Second and third go together

Fourth and fith go together

 

I see no question at all in the lines.

[dawei]

I know, so here is the Guodian 48 and the relevant "Great One" lines translated:

 

The teaching is daily magnified.

Does it make Dao set the sun?

It sets after its farther setting.

It sets down after its job done.

It is job done before its not undone.

 

While Tao too is its character, is early dawn its name,

because Tao accompanies, what's its duty, surely rely on its name.

Old duty done and itself prolonged.

What's the accompany duty of the sage also rely on its name.

Old duty done and himself not boned.

 

道亦其字也青昏其名

以道從事者必托其名

古事成而身長

聖人之從事也亦托其名

古功成而身不剔

 

Hope the characters are visible to them that want to check my translation?

This TYSS section (in bundle C) is the same as in DDJ Chapter 25 (in bundle A). In fact, this query about names and designations was so popular you find it also in Confucian texts as well (rectification of names; Spring and Autumn Annuls).

 

You leave out the lines preceding this section so lose the context that this was pointing out. Just as we call soil "earth" and air "heaven", Dao is the designation...

 

I don't see the connection to 48, although there are many connections to many other chapters, almost word for word.

Edited July 20, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

You leave out the lines preceding this section so lose the context that this was pointing out. Just as we call soil "earth" and air "heaven", Dao is the designation...

A quote does always leave something out, but I begin with the most important:

 

While Tao too is its character, is early dawn its name,

because Tao accompanies, what's its duty, surely rely on its name.

Old duty done and itself prolonged.

What's the accompany duty of the sage also rely on its name.

Old duty done and himself not boned.

 

Then I read the name of Tao being "early dawn" into my own chapter 48 translation:

 

Does the teaching of daily flood make the name Tao set the sun?

It sets after "early dawn" its farther setting.

It sets down after "early dawn" its job done.

It's job done before "early dawn" its not undone.

 

I think that Lao Tzu read Tai Yi Sheng Shui with his own eyes and didn't agree!

[Marblehead]

While Tao too is its character, is early dawn its name,

because Tao accompanies, what's its duty, surely rely on its name.

Old duty done and itself prolonged.

What's the accompany duty of the sage also rely on its name.

Old duty done and himself not boned.

 

Reminded me of the saying: When the task is accomplished, retire.

 

(I retired. Hehehe.)

[dust]

學者日益 Those who learn collect day by day,

爲道者日損 Those who follow the Way break apart day by day;

損之或損 Break apart and break apart,

以至亡爲也 Until there’s nothing doing;

亡爲而亡不爲 Nothing doing, and nothing not doing

[Marblehead]

Interesting you use of "break apart".

 

I do have a problem with the last two lines though. We are talking about wu wei here, right?

 

Until there is non-doing;

Non-doing yet nothing left undone.

[dust]

Well, we are and we aren't. Another good point, and I'll change accordingly:

 

學者日益 Those who learn collect day by day,

爲道者日損 Those who do the Way break apart day by day;

損之或損 Break apart and break apart,

以至亡爲也 Until there’s nothing doing;

亡爲而亡不爲 Nothing doing, and nothing not doing

 

 

To me the chapter is a fairly graphic representation of what happens when one starts to lose oneself to the Way

 

It says, almost word for word, "Those who do the Way break daily, break and break, until there's nothing (nobody) there to do, nothing doing and nothing not doing"

 

It's wu wei, but a more extreme version than we usually talk about, I feel.

[Marblehead]

To me the chapter is a fairly graphic representation of what happens when one starts to lose oneself to the Way

 

It says, almost word for word, "Those who do the Way break daily, break and break, until there's nothing (nobody) there to do, nothing doing and nothing not doing"

 

It's wu wei, but a more extreme version than we usually talk about, I feel.

Yeah, that would take a while for me to get comfortable with.

 

Breaking apart hurts. I have had a broken hip and a broken wrist. Breaking sounds so ... ... so broken.

 

And nobody doing nothing is way too Buddhist for my mind.

[dust]

For me, it says that she who stops trying to learn starts getting back to that root,

closer to the Tao,

the things one 'knew' fall apart,

the person one was breaks away,

and what's left is harmony...

One sees that doing isn't really doing -- there's no finite agent of doing -- and that still things are done

 

It is quite Buddhist, I think. They're very similar in so many ways.

This reminds me slightly of pratityasamutpada -- dependent/interdependent origination

 

Everything happens, but there are no individual, separate things making other things happen without any outside influence

When one gets closer to the Way, one learns to appreciate that the Way is doing it all, and we're part of it

Edited November 26, 2014 by dustybeijing