[TTC Study] Chapter 48 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

For me, it says that she who stops trying to learn starts getting back to that root,

closer to the Tao,

the things one 'knew' fall apart,

the person one was breaks away,

and what's left is harmony...

Okay. I'm with you up to this point.

 

One sees that doing isn't really doing -- there's no finite agent of doing -- and that still things are done

My materialistic mind can't grasp that. Cause and effect. If there is an effect there had to be a cause.

 

... one learns to appreciate that the Way is doing it all, and we're part of it

I won't talk to the part I cut but,

 

Yes, the Tao follows its own Tzujan and we should follow ours. In being and in following our nature (Tzujan) we are not doing but all things are done.

[dust]

Simple cause and effect suggests that if I kick the ball > the ball moves away

 

And that's OK if we're playing football or doing an experiment to test ball bounciness

 

But in the greater scheme of things -- which is what we're concerned with, isn't it? -- there were things that caused me to be there kicking, and that caused the ball to be there, and that caused the ground that we stood on to be there in whatever condition, and the wind and the shoes I'm wearing and the energy I have etc etc all contribute to that situation, and that situation affects a billion other situations in so many obvious and imperceptible ways.

 

There is cause and effect, but it's not as simple as

 

{ 1 cause = 1 effect = stop}

 

it's more like

 

{ everything = everything = everything ... }

[Marblehead]

it's more like

 

{ everything = everything = everything ... }

Hehehe. How many times have I been down this very same path? Too many, I am sure.

 

You forgot to include all the choices "you" made in the series. You could have stayed in bed and nothing would have happened.

 

I will agree with you that cause(s) equal effect(s). But I will argue till my dying day that everything is not everything. There are the Ten Thousand Things, each special and unique, but yes, commonly supporting. (But not equally supporting.)

[dust]

Not equal. If we could get to the smallest parts -- the quanta -- of existence, 1 of those would equal 1 other, I suppose. But everything beyond that is beyond calculation. "Equalness" (as opposed to equality) doesn't really factor in.

 

I could have made the choice to stay in bed, but that choice would have been influenced by a billion other things.

 

I'm not arguing that we as sentient beings don't have choices, but that the Dao makes no choices. It just happens. Self-so.

I think the chapter is saying that the closer we get to the Way, and the Way of Heaven ("When the work is done, withdraw"), it's not that we stop doing anything or making choices, but that we see our actions and choices as a part of the grand scheme.

[dust]

You could have stayed in bed and nothing would have happened.

 

Lots of things would still have happened...

[Marblehead]

Lots of things would still have happened...

You got me! Hehehe.

 

Yep, things are going to happen It's the Way of Tao. Tao is dynamic. We are supposed to be dynamic too. But we have choices (within limits) and we can wu wei if we want to.