fanatical Buddhists

[Vajrahridaya]

Because in the end, it is all an illusion anyway, isn't it?

 

No, it is like an illusion, it's not actually an illusion, there is no such illusion, but there is life and death, relatively speaking, it's very real, just... malleable.

 

Also the descriptions about the bardo states are real experiences, though the forms may change, the essential type of experiences are the same, as there are all sorts of different types of minds and the forms of these experiences will be in alignment with individual conditioning. But the whole facing of yourself and your demons and focusing on the clear light, recognizing emptiness in the bardo, etc. All this stuff is very good for people to be aware of.

[Vajrahridaya]

"Because in the end, it is all an illusion anyway, isn't it?"

 

No, but your illusion about it is

 

Very good! Nice one.

[doc benway]

No, it is like an illusion, it's not actually an illusion, there is no such illusion, but there is life and death, relatively speaking, it's very real, just... malleable.

 

Perhaps a better word would have been emptiness or void.... that was the intent.

In the end, just words.

[doc benway]

[Vajrahridaya]

Perhaps a better word would have been emptiness or void.... that was the intent.

In the end, just words.

 

Yes, I know what you mean, but words can define a persons interpretation of things, due to that, I try to be as specific as possible. Hard enough to do considering how people read things their own way as well.

 

Like, you had a meaning that wasn't communicated clearly through your usage of the symbols of language, but you knew what you were trying to convey, just not as successful as you could have been if we were, lets say, reading each others experiences on a mind to mind level.

[doc benway]

Like, you had a meaning that wasn't communicated clearly through your usage of the symbols of language, but you knew what you were trying to convey, just not as successful as you could have been if we were, lets say, reading each others experiences on a mind to mind level.

Ahhh, but there's the rub. I don't know what I'm trying to convey. It is unknowable.

I just create an image then capture that image in a word.

I have no idea what that represents - I think I know because I've been conditioned to accept the image as a suitable substitute for whatever it represents. But when talking about things like emptiness, there is no knowing.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ahhh, but there's the rub. I don't know what I'm trying to convey. It is unknowable.

I just create an image then capture that image in a word.

I have no idea what that represents - I think I know because I've been conditioned to accept the image as a suitable substitute for whatever it represents. But when talking about things like emptiness, there is no knowing.

 

Concerning emptiness recognized in the moment.

There is direct awareness, next are bright lights, swirling colors in the void, next are abstract images, then more emotionally defined images, next are concepts concerning the images, then the symbols of language. All are recognized as equally empty and dependently arisen, endlessly cycling without beginning.

 

One could break this process cycle down more and more... but...

Edited July 11, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[3bob]

I just don't see it the same as you. That should be fine. We are here debating views, it happens all over this site, not just me, but everywhere about all sorts of things. People are arguing and debating and things are coming out, and then there are hugs and understandings happen, more information comes out due to friction. It's a party for sharing, and debating, it's great I think!

 

Please, nit pick yourself and either debate view with me or move on.

 

Thanks.

 

Well you gave it a decent shot Twinner. Do many of us a favor VJ and move on to a real Buddhist web site and see how long they tolerate a nut-job like yourself...

 

Om

[Vajrahridaya]

Well you gave it a decent shot Twinner. Do many of us a favor VJ and move on to a real Buddhist web site and see how long they tolerate a nut-job like yourself...

 

Om

 

I'm already on a couple Mr. Fanatically affected.

 

I'm well loved too... Thank you, as much as I'm loved here by those that do love me here. I'm loved by more here than openly hated on by you and just a couple of others.

 

Which reveals that your view is subjective, supported by a minority, and has no absolute value in determining my value here.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[3bob]

VJ,

I never said anything about hating you (who could really hate a deluded nut-job anyway?), it's just that you are sick and spreading it here. Someday a Buddha will help you crack your coconut then you'll see what an ass you have been parroting this and that as if you authority to do so.

[Vajrahridaya]

VJ,

I never said anything about hating you (who could really hate a deluded nut-job anyway?), it's just that you are sick and spreading it here. Someday a Buddha will help you crack your coconut then you'll see what an ass you have been parroting this and that as if you authority to do so.

 

It's good that you reveal on here how strongly you hold onto a solidly static view of reality.

 

This is typical of theists.

 

This way you can look at how deeply you cling to a self.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[3bob]

VJ,

 

How many times have we heard that worn out line...?

Get off it. Grow up. Get real.

[Vajrahridaya]

3bob, did you know that Shankaracharya was a fanatical Buddhist hater, deeply empowered by deep theistic interpretations of reality and the experiences conditioned by such? This is why he worked tirelessly to eradicate Buddhism from India and make it Vedic once again. You may not hate me, but you hate the view that see's through subjective monist idealism.

[Vajrahridaya]

VJ,

 

How many times have we heard that worn out line...?

Get off it. Grow up. Get real.

 

What's real 3bob? Why do you even react so intensely? You should wonder.

[C T]

Dogma is the established doctrine of a religion. Religionists take their dogma very seriously, I assure you.

Tibetan Buddhists are very dogmatic when it comes to the bardo states and all such constructs surrounding death and transitions.

All of this is laid out in great detail.

You may say this is not dogma or dogmatic but I think that would be disingenuous.

Then again, the way our minds work is such that what I believe is truth, what you believe is dogma.

 

Why do we take life and death so seriously?

I think there should be equal measures of seriousness and levity.

Because in the end, it is all an illusion anyway, isn't it?

In my opinion, Steve...

 

I agree with the first sentence.

 

However, i doubt the manner in which the Bardo states have been investigated, expounded and validated by the various lineages in Tibet, including the Bons, can be labelled dogmatic in the least. After all, the Bardo states are not some occurrences restricted to after-death events, as in life, each moment transitioning to the next is as much a Bardo as the greater, more profound crossing-overs. Therefore, in Buddhism, or at least in Tibetan Buddhism, there is as much, if not more encouragement to investigate the Bardos of living as there are in the Bardos of dying and after death. Upon deeper introspection, isnt it true that we have to learn to die to each moment in order to fully live the next? Perhaps its when one is unable to fully understand or accept this simple truth that karmic baggage gets accumulated. One way to familiarize with this is thru gaining awareness during the Bardo of waking/dream transition.

 

From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu: "When one falls asleep, one becomes disengaged from the karmic traces of the material body, the karmic traces of vision, and the karmic traces of mental functioning. These karmic traces, during the waking state, manifests as one's material body, the external appearances one perceives, and the functioning of one's mind respectively. Why do we speak of being disengaged? From one's falling asleep right up to the moment when dreams begin, there is no functioning of the mind and one finds oneself in the real condition of existence. In this, one will experience to a certain degree a merging with what is called the natural clear light (intrinsic illumination and liberation of 'self' attachment)."

 

Such is what has been taught by the great scholars across all the different lineages - we, however, should not accept this on blind faith. We can find out, or not, if this is actually the case.

 

Buddhist doctrinal teachings only become dogma for those who are too lazy, too blind or too headstrong to look deeper and inquire into their efficacy (or not). When the basis of the path is one where self-inquiry forms the crux of the Teaching, it becomes doubtful if one can actually voice disingenuity. After all, the Buddha did encourage his 'followers' to doubt until they have investigated fully his words. And this way of self-inquiry and promoting experiential insights have been the norm since.

 

Which explains why threads of this nature, accusations of buddhist fanaticism, makes no sense. Looks like it was started as a deliberate attempt to cause some sort of schism. A grave error, indeed.

 

Namaste.

Edited July 11, 2011 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

I am amazed at how emotional these discussions of Buddhism can become. Hehehe.

 

Lighten up guys. It's only life. Nothing to get all shook up about.

[Dainin]

I believe that there is a feature in this forum that allows you to block the posts of any user that you select if you don't want to read what they write. Personally, I don't feel the need to do this because it is easy enough for me to evaluate the content of a thread and decide if I want to read it or not...and also, sometimes members whose posts I tend not to read do come up with gems. I find many of the threads about special powers and the "best and highest" practices to be as tedious or worse than the Buddhist ones.

[3bob]

CowTao,

 

I think you are fairly easy to get along with as in flexible, thoughtful, and not very combative.

 

Then again you do express your bias from time to time which is your right.... Like in, "Which explains why threads of this nature, accusations of buddhist fanaticism, makes no sense. Looks like it was started as a deliberate attempt to cause some sort of schism. A grave error, indeed"

 

It was started as a deliberate attempt to counter a certain fanatical type Buddhist "schism" caused by elements here that often go to far. This is a tolerant Taoist site but people coming here and getting hammered with dubiously motivated harpings that try to use or co-opt Buddhist doctrine to over-ride everyone and everthing is not where it is at imo... Btw, as you know from some of my past posts I appreciate a great deal of the various Buddhist teachings. (especially Zen and Alan Watts type presentations)

 

It would be a "grave error" to roll over and die by those who would force-feed their interpretation of Buddhism in cult like ways, which it was not meant to be.

 

Om

[C T]

CowTao,

 

I think you are fairly easy to get along with as in flexible, thoughtful, and not very combative.

 

Then again you do express your bias from time to time which is your right.... Like in, "Which explains why threads of this nature, accusations of buddhist fanaticism, makes no sense. Looks like it was started as a deliberate attempt to cause some sort of schism. A grave error, indeed"

 

It was started as a deliberate attempt to counter a certain fanatical type Buddhist "schism" caused by elements here that often go to far. This is a tolerant Taoist site but people coming here and getting hammered with dubiously motivated harpings that try to use or co-opt Buddhist doctrine to over-ride everyone and everthing is not where it is at imo... Btw, as you know from some of my past posts I appreciate a great deal of the various Buddhist teachings. (especially Zen and Alan Watts type presentations)

 

It would be a "grave error" to roll over and die by those who would force-feed their interpretation of Buddhism in cult like ways, which it was not meant to be.

 

Om

 

I am too old now, 3Bob... all my 'fire' for debate has been extinguished.

 

If what i said had been found offensive, please accept my apologies.

 

This is a fairly liberal discussion site which tries to promote topics of cultivation, both spiritual and mundane. Although Tao by name, its great that a wide range of practices/topics get discussed here, which is basically comforting to know because one of the key essence of the study of Tao is its emphasis on developing a fluid and encompassing nature.

 

I think what Dainin mentioned above is very practical... We can choose what we want to read, or ignore that which we find bland and irrelevant. Since this freedom has been equally endowed to all who visit here, there really are no grounds to proclaim fanaticism. I am sure it can be assumed that everyone understands the meaning of the term. Its a harsh label, and does not promote goodwill. Moreover, fanatical indoctrination can only be such if and when the will of an individual or a group have been compromised - and this can hardly be achieved over the net, if such was indeed the initial desire of whoever it is you think is guilty of it.

 

Best to you, kind friend.

Edited July 11, 2011 by CowTao

[goldisheavy]

As soon as one gives up trying to be a Buddhist one can benefit to a much greater degree from the Buddhist wisdom. Wisdom is one kind of commitment. Trying to conform to socially expected appearances of a group identity is a totally different commitment. At some point the person stops caring about the truth and only cares about fitting in the group. At that point Buddhism destroys the Buddha. It's much better when the Buddha destroys Buddhism and even better still when you destroy all Buddhas and Buddhism, together with all the ignorant beings.

 

Buddha said he wasn't a person or an angel or a ghost and so on, rejecting all manner of self-delineation. If you're a Buddhist when Buddha refused to acknowledge even his identity as a person, then you are not really paying attention to what Buddha was talking about.

 

Buddha was like a good drug dealer. A good drug dealer sells the drugs to others, but doesn't take the drugs oneself. Likewise, Buddha didn't follow anyone, but told everyone else to follow him. Buddha wouldn't be his own disciple.

Edited July 11, 2011 by goldisheavy

[3bob]

I am too old now, 3Bob... all my 'fire' for debate has been extinguished.

 

If what i said had been found offensive, please accept my apologies.

 

This is a fairly liberal discussion site which tries to promote topics of cultivation, both spiritual and mundane. Although Tao by name, its great that a wide range of practices/topics get discussed here, which is basically comforting to know because one of the key essence of the study of Tao is its emphasis on developing a fluid and encompassing nature.

 

I think what Dainin mentioned above is very practical... We can choose what we want to read, or ignore that which we find bland and irrelevant. Since this freedom has been equally endowed to all who visit here, there really are no grounds to proclaim fanaticism. I am sure it can be assumed that everyone understands the meaning of the term. Its a harsh label, and does not promote goodwill. Moreover, fanatical indoctrination can only be such if and when the will of an individual or a group have been compromised - and this can hardly be achieved over the net, if such was indeed the initial desire of whoever it is you think is guilty of it.

 

Best to you, kind friend.

 

Thank you for the diplomatic reply CowTao. We can count on you for trying to be a peace maker. Note: I don't discount or under-estimate the potentail power of the internet and many of its sites to influence people in all sorts of ways at all sorts of levels. As to desires or motives of others... I admit I'm not a good shrink and have gone to far at times in pointing the finger, but the "harsh" effect and general intent of certain Buddhist related proclamations made by certain people are fairly obvious, - regardless of any of the underlying details and or personal stuff related to their desires or motives about same.

 

Om

Edited July 11, 2011 by 3bob

[Vajrahridaya]

As soon as one gives up trying to be a Buddhist one can benefit to a much greater degree from the Buddhist wisdom. Wisdom is one kind of commitment. Trying to conform to socially expected appearances of a group identity is a totally different commitment. At some point the person stops caring about the truth and only cares about fitting in the group. At that point Buddhism destroys the Buddha. It's much better when the Buddha destroys Buddhism and even better still when you destroy all Buddhas and Buddhism, together with all the ignorant beings.

 

Buddha said he wasn't a person or an angel or a ghost and so on, rejecting all manner of self-delineation. If you're a Buddhist when Buddha refused to acknowledge even his identity as a person, then you are not really paying attention to what Buddha was talking about.

 

Buddha was like a good drug dealer. A good drug dealer sells the drugs to others, but doesn't take the drugs oneself. Likewise, Buddha didn't follow anyone, but told everyone else to follow him. Buddha wouldn't be his own disciple.

 

What the Buddha taught has both relative and ultimate meanings. Those who take the ultimate meaning without first traversing the relative I think are really missing what the Buddha taught as well.

 

Apannaka Jataka Buddha declares:

 

"Disciples, nowhere between the lowest of hells below and the highest heaven above, nowhere in all the infinite worlds that stretch right and left, is there the equal, much less the superior, of a Buddha. Incalculable is the excellence which springs from obeying the Precepts and from other virtuous conduct.

 

By taking refuge in the Triple Gem (Buddha/Dharma/Sangha), one escapes from rebirth in states of suffering. In forsaking such a refuge as this, you have certainly erred. In the past, too, men who foolishly mistook what was no refuge for a real refuge, met disaster."

 

Yes, I am a Buddhist, and the Buddha was a Buddhist as well, even before he became a Buddha. Call it egotistical, but to think of oneself as a Buddha before even being a Buddhist, is foolish. I would not follow or trust that person to reflect the Buddhas teachings as succinctly as a Buddhist Master, even if they have cultivated to a high degree, I would not consider it Buddhahood nor his/her words a worthy teaching to take take refuge in.

[ralis]

It is my wish that the fanatical Buddhists here would read this and say no more!

 

 

The Song of Mahamudra

 

Mahamudra is beyond all words

And symbols, but for you, Naropa,

Earnest and loyal, must this be said.

 

 

The Void needs no reliance,

Mahamudra rests on nought.

Without making an effort,

One can break the yoke

Thus gaining Liberation.

 

 

If one sees nought when staring into space,

If with the mind one then observes the mind,

One destroys distinctions

And reaches Buddhahood.

 

 

The clouds that wander through the sky

Have no roots, no home; nor do the distinctive

Thoughts floating through the mind.

Once the Self-mind is seen,

Discrimination stops.

 

 

In space shapes and colors form,

But neither by black nor white is space tinged.

From the Self-mind all things emerge, the mind

By virtues and by vices is not stained.

 

 

The darkness of ages cannot shroud

The glowing sun; the long kalpas

Of Samsara ne'er can hide

The Mind's brilliant light.

 

 

Though words are spoken to explain the Void,

The Void as such can never be expressed.

Though we say "the mind is a bright light,"

It is beyond all words and symbols.

Although the mind is void in essence,

All things it embraces and contains.

 

 

Do nought with the body but relax,

Shut firm the mouth and think of nought.

Empty your mind and think of nought.

Like a hollow bamboo

Rest at ease your body.

Giving not nor taking,

Put your mind at rest.

Mahamudra is like a mind that clings to nought.

Thus practicing, in time you will reach Buddhahood.

 

 

The practice of Mantra and Paramita,

Instruction in the Sutras and Precepts,

And teaching from the Schools and Scriptures will not bring

Realization of the Innate Truth.

For if the mind when filled with some desire

Should seek a goal, it only hides the Light.

 

 

He who keeps Tantric Precepts

Yet discriminates, betrays

The spirit of Samaya.

Cease all activity, abandon

All desire, let thoughts rise and fall

As they will like the ocean waves.

He who never harms the Non-abiding

Nor the Principle of Non-distinction,

Upholds the Tantric Precepts.

 

 

He who abandons craving

And clings not to this or that,

Perceives the real meaning

Given in the Scriptures.

 

 

In Mahamudra all one's sins are burned;

In Mahamudra one is released

From the prison of this world.

This is the Dharma's supreme torch.

Those who disbelieve it

Are fools who ever wallow

In misery and sorrow.

 

 

To strive for Liberation

One should rely on a Guru.

When your mind receives his blessing

Emancipation is at hand.

 

 

Alas, all things in this world are meaningless,

They are but sorrow's seeds.

Small teachings lead to acts;

One should only follow

Teachings that are great.

 

 

To transcend duality

Is the Kingly View;

To conquer distractions is

The Royal Practice;

The Path of No-practice

Is the Way of Buddhas;

He who treads that Path

Reaches Buddhahood.

 

 

Transient is this world;

Like phantoms and dreams,

Substance it has none.

Renounce it and forsake your kin,

Cut the strings of lust and hatred,

Meditate in woods and mountains.

If without effort you remain

Loosely in the "natural state,"

Soon Mahamudra you will win

And attain the Non-attainment.

 

 

Cut the root of a tree

And the leaves will wither;

Cut the root of your mind

And samsara falls.

 

 

The light of any lamp

Dispels in a moment

The darkness of long kalpas;

The strong light of the mind

In but a flash will burn

The veil of ignorance.

 

 

Whoever clings to mind sees not

The truth of what's Beyond the mind.

Whoever stives to practice Dharma

Finds not the truth of Beyond-practice.

To know what is Beyond both mind and practice,

One should cut cleanly through the root of mind

And stare naked. One should thus break away

From all distinctions and remain at ease.

 

 

One should not give or take

But remain natural,

For Mahamudra is beyond

All acceptance and rejection.

Since the Alaya is not born,

No one can obstruct or soil it;

Staying in the "Unborn" realm

All appearance will dissolve

Into the Dharmata, all self-will

And pride will vanish into nought.

 

 

The supreme Understanding transcends

All this and that. The supreme Action

Embraces great resourcefulness

Without attachment. The supreme

Accomplishment is to realize

Immanence without hope.

 

 

At first a yogi feels his mind

Is tumbling like a waterfall;

In mid-course, like the Ganges

It flows on slow and gentle;

In the end, it is a great

Vast ocean, where the Lights

Of Son and Mother merge in one.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ralis, is this Tilopas Song of Mahamudra to Naropa?

 

This is one of those songs that should be given to a yogi who has actually traversed through the path, having taken refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha.

 

This song given to someone without cultivation in the practices that Tilopa taught, will lead people to confusion. If you actually knew what Tilopa taught, as he taught refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha as well as debated wrong views, you would have a deeper context for the meaning of these words instead of equating them erroneously to your own pre-conceptions.

 

Besides, I like this translation much better.

 

Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa

in Twenty Eight Verses

 

 

Homage to the Eighty Four Mahasiddhas!

Homage to Mahamudra!

Homage to the Vajra Dakini!

 

Mahamudra cannot be taught. But most intelligent Naropa,

Since you have undergone rigorous austerity,

With forbearance in suffering and with devotion to your Guru,

Blessed One, take this secret instruction to heart.

 

Is space anywhere supported? Upon what does it rest?

Like space, Mahamudra is dependant upon nothing;

Relax and settle in the continuum of unalloyed purity,

And, your bonds loosening, release is certain.

 

Gazing intently into the empty sky, vision ceases;

Likewise, when mind gazes into mind itself,

The train of discursive and conceptual thought ends

And supreme enlightenment is gained.

 

Like the morning mist that dissolves into thin air,

Going nowhere but ceasing to be,

Waves of conceptualization, all the mind's creation, dissolve,

When you behold your mind's true nature.

 

Pure space has neither colour nor shape

And it cannot be stained either black or white;

So also, mind's essence is beyond both colour and shape

And it cannot be sullied by black or white deeds.

 

The darkness of a thousand aeons is powerless

To dim the crystal clarity of the sun's heart;

And likewise, aeons of samsara have no power

To veil the clear light of the mind's essence.

 

Although space has been designated "empty",

In reality it is inexpressible;

Although the nature of mind is called "clear light",

Its every ascription is baseless verbal fiction.

 

The mind's original nature is like space;

It pervades and embraces all things under the sun.

Be still and stay relaxed in genuine ease,

Be quiet and let sound reverberate as an echo,

Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds.

 

The body is essentially empty like the stem of a reed,

And the mind, like pure space, utterly transcends

the world of thought:

Relax into your intrinsic nature with neither abandon nor control -

Mind with no objective is Mahamudra -

And, with practice perfected, supreme enlightenment is gained.

 

The clear light of Mahamudra cannot be revealed

By the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises

Of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka;

The clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals.

 

By harbouring rigid precepts the true samaya is impaired,

But with cessation of mental activity all fixed notions subside;

When the swell of the ocean is at one with its peaceful depths,

When mind never strays from indeterminate, non-conceptual truth,

The unbroken samaya is a lamp lit in spiritual darkness.

 

Free of intellectual conceits, disavowing dogmatic principles,

The truth of every school and scripture is revealed.

Absorbed in Mahamudra, you are free from the prison of samsara;

Poised in Mahamudra, guilt and negativity are consumed;

And as master of Mahamudra you are the light of the Doctrine.

 

The fool in his ignorance, disdaining Mahamudra,

Knows nothing but struggle in the flood of samsara.

Have compassion for those who suffer constant anxiety!

Sick of unrelenting pain and desiring release, adhere to a master,

For when his blessing touches your heart, the mind is liberated.

 

KYE HO! Listen with joy!

Investment in samsara is futile; it is the cause of every anxiety.

Since worldly involvement is pointless, seek the heart of reality!

 

In the transcending of mind's dualities is Supreme vision;

In a still and silent mind is Supreme Meditation;

In spontaneity is Supreme Activity;

And when all hopes and fears have died, the Goal is reached.

 

Beyond all mental images the mind is naturally clear:

Follow no path to follow the path of the Buddhas;

Employ no technique to gain supreme enlightenment.

 

KYE MA! Listen with sympathy!

With insight into your sorry worldly predicament,

Realising that nothing can last, that all is as dreamlike illusion,

Meaningless illusion provoking frustration and boredom,

Turn around and abandon your mundane pursuits.

 

Cut away involvement with your homeland and friends

And meditate alone in a forest or mountain retreat;

Exist there in a state of non-meditation

And attaining no-attainment, you attain Mahamudra.

 

A tree spreads its branches and puts forth leaves,

But when its root is cut its foliage withers;

So too, when the root of the mind is severed,

The branches of the tree of samsara die

 

A single lamp dispels the darkness of a thousand aeons;

Likewise, a single flash of the mind's clear light

Erases aeons of karmic conditioning and spiritual blindness.

 

KYE HO! Listen with joy!

The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind;

The meaning of non-action cannot be understood in compulsive activity;

To realise the meaning of non-action and beyond mind,

Cut the mind at its root and rest in naked awareness.

 

Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;

Refrain from both positive and negative projection -

leave appearances alone:

The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra.

 

The unborn omnipresent base dissolves your impulsions and delusions:

Do not be conceited or calculating but rest in the unborn essence

And let all conceptions of yourself and the universe melt away.

 

The highest vision opens every gate;

The highest meditation plumbs the infinite depths;

The highest activity is ungoverned yet decisive;

And the highest goal is ordinary being devoid of hope and fear.

 

At first your karma is like a river falling through a gorge;

In mid-course it flows like a gently meandering River Ganga;

And finally, as a river becomes one with the ocean,

It ends in consummation like the meeting of mother and son.

 

If the mind is dull and you are unable to practice these instructions,

Retaining essential breath and expelling the sap of awareness,

Practising fixed gazes - methods of focussing the mind,

Discipline yourself until the state of total awareness abides.

 

When serving a karmamudra, the pure awareness

of bliss and emptiness will arise:

Composed in a blessed union of insight and means,

Slowly send down, retain and draw back up the bodhichitta,

And conducting it to the source, saturate the entire body.

But only if lust and attachment are absent will that awareness arise.

 

Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon,

Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion,

You will quickly gain mundane power and supreme enlightenment.

 

May this pith instruction in Mahamudra

Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings.

 

 

Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in twenty Eight Verses was transmitted by the Great Guru and Mahasiddha Tilopa to the Kashmiri Pandit, Sage and Siddha, Naropa, near the banks of the River Ganga upon the completion of his Twelve Austerities. Naropa transmitted the teaching in Sanskrit in the form of twenty eight verses to the great Tibetan translator Mar pa Chos kyi blos gros, who made a free translation of it at his village of Pulahari on the Tibet - Bhutan border.

 

This text is contained in the collection of Mahamudra instruction called the Do ha mdzod brgyad ces bya ba Phyag rgya chen po'i man ngag gsal bar ston pa'i gzhung, which is printed at the Gyalwa Karmapa's monastery at Rumtek, Sikkim. The Tibetan title is Phyag rgya chen po'i man ngag, or Phyag rgya chen po rdo rje'i tsig rkang nyi shu rtsa brgyad pa.

 

This translation into English has been done by Kunzang Tenzin in 1977, after transmission of the oral teaching by Khamtrul Rinpoche in Tashi Jong, Kangra Valley, India.

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Really Ralis, to think you know more about the meaning of this than great beings like the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama?

Edited July 11, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Ralis, is this Tilopas Song of Mahamudra to Naropa?

 

This is one of those songs that should be given to a yogi who has actually traversed through the path, having taken refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha.

 

This song given to someone without cultivation in the practices that Tilopa taught, will lead people to confusion. If you actually knew what Tilopa taught, as he taught refuge in the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha as well as debated wrong views, you would have a deeper context for the meaning of these words instead of equating them erroneously to your own pre-conceptions.

 

Besides, I like this translation much better.

 

Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa

in Twenty Eight Verses

 

 

Homage to the Eighty Four Mahasiddhas!

Homage to Mahamudra!

Homage to the Vajra Dakini!

 

Mahamudra cannot be taught. But most intelligent Naropa,

Since you have undergone rigorous austerity,

With forbearance in suffering and with devotion to your Guru,

Blessed One, take this secret instruction to heart.

 

Is space anywhere supported? Upon what does it rest?

Like space, Mahamudra is dependant upon nothing;

Relax and settle in the continuum of unalloyed purity,

And, your bonds loosening, release is certain.

 

Gazing intently into the empty sky, vision ceases;

Likewise, when mind gazes into mind itself,

The train of discursive and conceptual thought ends

And supreme enlightenment is gained.

 

Like the morning mist that dissolves into thin air,

Going nowhere but ceasing to be,

Waves of conceptualization, all the mind's creation, dissolve,

When you behold your mind's true nature.

 

Pure space has neither colour nor shape

And it cannot be stained either black or white;

So also, mind's essence is beyond both colour and shape

And it cannot be sullied by black or white deeds.

 

The darkness of a thousand aeons is powerless

To dim the crystal clarity of the sun's heart;

And likewise, aeons of samsara have no power

To veil the clear light of the mind's essence.

 

Although space has been designated "empty",

In reality it is inexpressible;

Although the nature of mind is called "clear light",

Its every ascription is baseless verbal fiction.

 

The mind's original nature is like space;

It pervades and embraces all things under the sun.

Be still and stay relaxed in genuine ease,

Be quiet and let sound reverberate as an echo,

Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds.

 

The body is essentially empty like the stem of a reed,

And the mind, like pure space, utterly transcends

the world of thought:

Relax into your intrinsic nature with neither abandon nor control -

Mind with no objective is Mahamudra -

And, with practice perfected, supreme enlightenment is gained.

 

The clear light of Mahamudra cannot be revealed

By the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises

Of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka;

The clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals.

 

By harbouring rigid precepts the true samaya is impaired,

But with cessation of mental activity all fixed notions subside;

When the swell of the ocean is at one with its peaceful depths,

When mind never strays from indeterminate, non-conceptual truth,

The unbroken samaya is a lamp lit in spiritual darkness.

 

Free of intellectual conceits, disavowing dogmatic principles,

The truth of every school and scripture is revealed.

Absorbed in Mahamudra, you are free from the prison of samsara;

Poised in Mahamudra, guilt and negativity are consumed;

And as master of Mahamudra you are the light of the Doctrine.

 

The fool in his ignorance, disdaining Mahamudra,

Knows nothing but struggle in the flood of samsara.

Have compassion for those who suffer constant anxiety!

Sick of unrelenting pain and desiring release, adhere to a master,

For when his blessing touches your heart, the mind is liberated.

 

KYE HO! Listen with joy!

Investment in samsara is futile; it is the cause of every anxiety.

Since worldly involvement is pointless, seek the heart of reality!

 

In the transcending of mind's dualities is Supreme vision;

In a still and silent mind is Supreme Meditation;

In spontaneity is Supreme Activity;

And when all hopes and fears have died, the Goal is reached.

 

Beyond all mental images the mind is naturally clear:

Follow no path to follow the path of the Buddhas;

Employ no technique to gain supreme enlightenment.

 

KYE MA! Listen with sympathy!

With insight into your sorry worldly predicament,

Realising that nothing can last, that all is as dreamlike illusion,

Meaningless illusion provoking frustration and boredom,

Turn around and abandon your mundane pursuits.

 

Cut away involvement with your homeland and friends

And meditate alone in a forest or mountain retreat;

Exist there in a state of non-meditation

And attaining no-attainment, you attain Mahamudra.

 

A tree spreads its branches and puts forth leaves,

But when its root is cut its foliage withers;

So too, when the root of the mind is severed,

The branches of the tree of samsara die

 

A single lamp dispels the darkness of a thousand aeons;

Likewise, a single flash of the mind's clear light

Erases aeons of karmic conditioning and spiritual blindness.

 

KYE HO! Listen with joy!

The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind;

The meaning of non-action cannot be understood in compulsive activity;

To realise the meaning of non-action and beyond mind,

Cut the mind at its root and rest in naked awareness.

 

Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;

Refrain from both positive and negative projection -

leave appearances alone:

The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra.

 

The unborn omnipresent base dissolves your impulsions and delusions:

Do not be conceited or calculating but rest in the unborn essence

And let all conceptions of yourself and the universe melt away.

 

The highest vision opens every gate;

The highest meditation plumbs the infinite depths;

The highest activity is ungoverned yet decisive;

And the highest goal is ordinary being devoid of hope and fear.

 

At first your karma is like a river falling through a gorge;

In mid-course it flows like a gently meandering River Ganga;

And finally, as a river becomes one with the ocean,

It ends in consummation like the meeting of mother and son.

 

If the mind is dull and you are unable to practice these instructions,

Retaining essential breath and expelling the sap of awareness,

Practising fixed gazes - methods of focussing the mind,

Discipline yourself until the state of total awareness abides.

 

When serving a karmamudra, the pure awareness

of bliss and emptiness will arise:

Composed in a blessed union of insight and means,

Slowly send down, retain and draw back up the bodhichitta,

And conducting it to the source, saturate the entire body.

But only if lust and attachment are absent will that awareness arise.

 

Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon,

Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion,

You will quickly gain mundane power and supreme enlightenment.

 

May this pith instruction in Mahamudra

Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings.

 

 

Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in twenty Eight Verses was transmitted by the Great Guru and Mahasiddha Tilopa to the Kashmiri Pandit, Sage and Siddha, Naropa, near the banks of the River Ganga upon the completion of his Twelve Austerities. Naropa transmitted the teaching in Sanskrit in the form of twenty eight verses to the great Tibetan translator Mar pa Chos kyi blos gros, who made a free translation of it at his village of Pulahari on the Tibet - Bhutan border.

 

This text is contained in the collection of Mahamudra instruction called the Do ha mdzod brgyad ces bya ba Phyag rgya chen po'i man ngag gsal bar ston pa'i gzhung, which is printed at the Gyalwa Karmapa's monastery at Rumtek, Sikkim. The Tibetan title is Phyag rgya chen po'i man ngag, or Phyag rgya chen po rdo rje'i tsig rkang nyi shu rtsa brgyad pa.

 

This translation into English has been done by Kunzang Tenzin in 1977, after transmission of the oral teaching by Khamtrul Rinpoche in Tashi Jong, Kangra Valley, India.

......................................

Really Ralis, to think you know more about the meaning of this than great beings like the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama?

 

 

Are you going to give Keith Dowman credit for the cut and paste? I never mentioned the Karmapa or Dalai Lama, so why do you appeal to their authority to put me down? You must get a thrill in behaving that way.