Continuity

[doc benway]

In another thread there was a brief discussion about whether existence renews itself in every instant or is continuous.

 

My own experience suggests that awareness is continuous until choice enters, until thought enters.

When I sit in awareness, there is continuity. There is no interruption, there is just being.

When thought arises, there is separation from that continuity, from now.

A return to now after thought passes gives the illusion of discontinuity.

So it is always now. It does not renew.

 

Just some thoughts for discussion if anyone is interested.

[strawdog65]

There is NO time.

There IS only this moment that exists.

 

 

 

 

A favorite topic of mine.

 

Thank you Steve!

[Vajrahridaya]

Integrating thought with that state of mind is a good one too.

[doc benway]

Integrating thought with that state of mind is a good one too.

Samsara = Nirvana

[strawdog65]

The birds have vanished into the sky,

 

And now the last cloud fades away,

 

We sit together, the Mountain and I,

 

Until only the Mountain remains.

 

 

Li Po

 

 

 

 

One of my all time favorites!

[Vajrahridaya]

Where'd that last post go?

Edited July 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[NeiChuan]

The birds have vanished into the sky,

 

And now the last cloud fades away,

 

We sit together, the Mountain and I,

 

Until only the Mountain remains.

 

 

Li Po

 

 

 

 

 

One of my all time favorites!

 

I like it

[Small Fur]

Steve,

 

Time exists and is experienced in various ways dependent upon different spaces and dimensions.

In metaphysics we'd call this 'realms'.

 

On this plane, or on earth, time appears to move linearly:

The past comes to meet us on one end of the string, and the future comes to meet us from the other end of the string.

These two passages of time form and inform in unity the moment you call 'now'.

But in the greater span of the universe, 'now' is a moment connected to infinite other strings.

Thus one moment of 'now' is an eternal space in which the singularity* of a moment is renewed.

 

Hence, the stillness of a moment is as eternal as it's ever changing renewal, which vibrates in the continuities of 'now'.

 

This is one of the secrets to unlocking the poetry of the Tao and its 'seeming' conundrums.

 

Mila

 

*singularity as defined by astrophysics

Edited July 10, 2011 by Small Fur

[Informer]

Steve,

 

Time exists in many different ways dependent upon different spaces and dimensions.

 

On this plane, or on earth, time appears to move linearly:

The past comes to meet us on one end of the string, and the future comes to meet us from the other end of the string.

These two passages of time form and inform in unity the moment you call 'now.

But in the greater span of the universe, 'now' is a moment connected to infinite other strings.

Thus one moment of 'now' is an eternal space in which the singularity* of a moment is renewed.

 

Hence, the stillness of a moment is as eternal as it's ever changing renewal, which vibrates in the continuities of 'now'.

 

This is one of the secrets to unlocking the poetry of the Tao and its 'seeming' conundrums.

 

Mila

 

*singularity as defined by astrophysics

 

There is a theory that debates the truth of what you wrote.

 

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

 

Now is forever. Tommorrow is never here, but another moment in now. As tommorrow remains as it always has been, it never becomes now.

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=splitting-time-from-space

Edited July 10, 2011 by Informer

[Small Fur]

There is a theory that debates the truth of what you wrote.

 

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

 

Now is forever. Tommorrow is never here, but another moment in now. As tommorrow remains as it always has been, it never becomes now.

 

 

Hi there,

 

Thanks for sharing these links with me. Actually, my point is in harmony with what you share. The concept of eternal means there is no time. It is 'forever' and is 'always'. And yet clearly, in the limits of a typical perception of a 'time' there is an actual form linearity we cannot deny. Do not confuse levels of time perception in various states of space and dimension for the totality of the existence of time- which is the NON-existence of time.

 

This is the difference between "the ten thousand things" and that which is cannot be named. Time exists. Time doesn't exist.

Time is a measurable moment. Time is nothing and therefore, without measure. Duality resolves into unity. Mila

Edited July 10, 2011 by Small Fur

[Informer]

Hi there,

 

Thanks for sharing these links with me. Actually, my point is in harmony with what you share. The concept of eternal means there is no time. It is 'forever' and is 'always'. And yet clearly, in the limits of a typical perception of a 'time' there is an actual form linearity we cannot deny. Do not confuse levels of time perception in various states of space and dimension for the totality of the existence of time- which is the NON-existence of time.

 

This is the difference between "the ten thousand things" and that which is cannot be named. Time exists. Time doesn't exist.

Time is a measurable moment. Time is nothing and therefore, without measure. Duality resolves into unity. Mila

 

It is but a concept, the equations that Einstein discovered explains how our concept of time is in relation to the universe at the atomic level, there is no further proof of its actual existence, only what the concept of it is, from only our macroscopic perspective.

[Small Fur]

It is but a concept, the equations that Einstein discovered explains how our concept of time is in relation to the universe at the atomic level, there is no further proof of its actual existence, only what the concept of it is, from only our macroscopic perspective.

 

Well, we have a person engaging a metaphysical question that physics attempts to answer.

 

The only answer is one outside of words. And I cannot give that to you over a chat window.

The one within words can be alluded to through poetics, but it cannot be stated.

The one within words through science can be stated, but once stated can only be debated. That is the nature of mind.

 

Hence, the most precisely I can answer these questions with words is to use imprecise terms like the words "appearance" and "perception". Notice the abundance of these marks ' ' . Notice that my use of it is even around the word 'now'. ;-)

 

Theories are conceptions, and as you note, conceptions are limited. Thus, proof through theory is limited. Steve has shared an experience that is an aspect of something beyond 'proof' and I am very happy for it!

 

Thanks for trying to inform me.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Small Fur

[Informer]

We could have been agreeing the whole time

[Small Fur]

We could have been agreeing the whole time

 

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and engaging me!

Edited July 10, 2011 by Small Fur

[Otis]

In another thread there was a brief discussion about whether existence renews itself in every instant or is continuous.

 

My own experience suggests that awareness is continuous until choice enters, until thought enters.

When I sit in awareness, there is continuity. There is no interruption, there is just being.

When thought arises, there is separation from that continuity, from now.

A return to now after thought passes gives the illusion of discontinuity.

So it is always now. It does not renew.

 

Just some thoughts for discussion if anyone is interested.

I don't know!

[Informer]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and engaging me!

 

 

Thanks for talking with me Hopefully we can engage more in the future ! (or another now more likely)

 

hahaha.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Informer

[Vajrahridaya]

Dear TaoMeow,

 

Would you please put a note, placeholder, link...something to let us know when you've moved a personal post of yours? I find it as confusing as Vaj.

 

Moving your post has disrupted the continuity of this thread!

 

Yes, I liked it I think. I was about to look at it more closely on my table, but it disappeared before I could adequately interact with it.

[Todd]

In another thread there was a brief discussion about whether existence renews itself in every instant or is continuous.

 

My own experience suggests that awareness is continuous until choice enters, until thought enters.

When I sit in awareness, there is continuity. There is no interruption, there is just being.

When thought arises, there is separation from that continuity, from now.

A return to now after thought passes gives the illusion of discontinuity.

So it is always now. It does not renew.

 

Just some thoughts for discussion if anyone is interested.

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

I'll play.

 

I like the general structure that GIH proposed in the other thread, that reality is neither only discontinuous nor only continuous. The perception of continuity or discontinuity is really just a matter of point of view, or the thought construct that one happens to be interpreting through or communicating with or manifesting reality with (once again, depending on your point of view).

 

A good analogy is light. Light appears in different circumstances to be either a particle (discontinuous) or a wave (continuous). Which is it? Neither and both, depending on your point of view. There is more to light than particle qualities and there is more to light than wave qualities. To have a fuller understanding of light, none of these qualities can be ignored or given precedence. Rather than trying to narrow it down to one quality, to come to a fuller understanding of light, we are best served to look for even more qualities, more ways that it can be seen than we have imagined to be possible.

 

I find this to be all the more applicable to reality, since my interest in light is really only a subset of my interest in reality.

 

All well and good, you might say, but what is my experience?

 

The thing that is continuous is not awareness. The only continuity is not touchable by the mind and I cannot give it any qualities, as much as I might like to from time to time. The reason that I say that there is something that is continuous is that there is experience, and even if any given aspect of existence cannot be said to be continuous, even awareness, I cannot say that experience has ever ended, nor am I conscious of a time before experience.

 

Experience can be conceived of as the tendency to manifest.

 

The reason that I say that awareness is not continuous is because I have noticed gaps in my awareness. For example, sleep. I have had limited experiences of awareness during sleep, even dreamless sleep, but this awareness is not continuous in my experience, so how can I go around calling it continuous?

 

This begs the question, "How do you notice gaps in awareness?" I can't answer that. And you can say that the awareness that you were referring to is that which notices the gaps in the awareness that I am referring to, and I can say "Maybe". I just don't prefer the word awareness, since it calls up an image in my mind, of something separate from that of which it is aware. Thats why I chose the word "experience" when I was describing why I say that something is continuous. This is equally problematic, in that there are "experiences" of "non-experience"! And I can ask the question, "How do you experience non-experience?"

 

 

You handled this by locating the continuity that you call awareness outside of mind. That is a decent pointer, since, as we have seen above, no satisfying description of that which is continuous can be found within the mind.

 

However, I cannot really call it continuous, because I cannot separate it from that which arises. And the way that experience appears to arise is instantaneously. It is almost as if it never really arises. It appears and disappears so quickly that it can't really be conceived of consciously. (That is to say I cannot conceive of it consciously; I can only intuit it.) The reason that I say that it appears and disappears more quickly than can be conceived of consciously is because when I examine my experience, I cannot find even the tinniest little thing which persists for even the tinniest fraction of time. And yet there is the appearance of things, so I cannot discount that things arise. And since things appear to change, then they must also appear to be passing so that new versions might appear.

 

This experience leads me to call manifestation discontinuous. So we have a continuous tendency to manifest, or potential for manifestation, and a discontinuous totality of manifestation, which cannot ever be separated from the tendency to manifest. In other words, a continuity that cannot be separated from a discontinuity.

 

Why do I say that it can't be separated? Because I could never know the potential to manifest if it were not for that actual manifestation. Experience, though it has no fixed qualities, remains experience.

 

This is a good jumping off point for Mila's post about how the thread of "time" constantly feeds into the now from both the past and the future (and I would say the now also feeds into both the past and the future), and about how there are infinite other threads in other dimensions also feeding (and being fed) into this now, whose every manifestation is a singularity.

 

This is implied by the qualitylessness, and hence infinite potential of experience, but I am curious about the experiences that lead her to say this.

 

Mila, what are some of these other dimensions and what inspires you to mention them? I am interested in a broader view.

 

I am also interested in other ways that reality can be seen to be discontinuous or continuous, or perhaps more interestingly, things inbetween. This has been a long post, so maybe Steve or others might expand on the options.

 

Todd

[Taomeow]

Dear TaoMeow,

 

Would you please put a note, placeholder, link...something to let us know when you've moved a personal post of yours? I find it as confusing as Vaj.

 

Moving deleting your post has disrupted the continuity of this thread!

Yes, I liked it I think. I was about to look at it more closely on my table, but it disappeared before I could adequately interact with it.

 

Please forgive my sloppiness in failing to provide a link, and thank you so much for noticing that post before I moved it!

 

it's post #22 at

 

http://www.thetaobum...um/page__st__16

 

and if the link fails, it can be found at Taomeow's personal practice forum in the thread titled "Odds and ends from the main forum" -- post #22

 

(It's a recent idea of mine, to move my posts instead of deleting them as I used to do when I would respond fast and spontaneously to something on the board and then realize that I've voiced a "controversial" or "highly idiosyncratic" opinion and would have to spend more time on it should someone find therein a point of interest or a bone to pick, or want more info or where I'm coming from etc., and then it would dawn on me that I did only have some time for a spontaneous entry but won't have the time to follow up. So that's when I used to delete my posts, but then, recently, decided to try saving them elsewhere instead, in case someone gets interested and I do have some time in the future to get back to that topic. So, just like this thread, it's all about time!)

[dawei]

Steve,

 

Time exists and is experienced in various ways dependent upon different spaces and dimensions.

In metaphysics we'd call this 'realms'.

 

On this plane, or on earth, time appears to move linearly:

The past comes to meet us on one end of the string, and the future comes to meet us from the other end of the string.

These two passages of time form and inform in unity the moment you call 'now'.

But in the greater span of the universe, 'now' is a moment connected to infinite other strings.

Thus one moment of 'now' is an eternal space in which the singularity* of a moment is renewed.

 

Hence, the stillness of a moment is as eternal as it's ever changing renewal, which vibrates in the continuities of 'now'.

 

This is one of the secrets to unlocking the poetry of the Tao and its 'seeming' conundrums.

 

Mila

 

*singularity as defined by astrophysics

Have you read Peter Lynds papers?

http://www.peterlynds.net.nz/papers.html

[Ya Mu]

...

When thought arises, there is separation from that continuity, from now.

...

YES! Anytime one engages the brain there is a perceived separation. Learning to split attentions is one way around this; a first and 2nd attention.

...

The only answer is one outside of words. ...

++++

[doc benway]

Learning to split attentions is one way around this; a first and 2nd attention.

Or non-localized attention although that is very challenging and I can only manage it for very short bursts.

[Ya Mu]

Or non-localized attention although that is very challenging and I can only manage it for very short bursts.

We very well may be referring to the same thing.

[Small Fur]

 

This is a good jumping off point for Mila's post about how the thread of "time" constantly feeds into the now from both the past and the future (and I would say the now also feeds into both the past and the future), and about how there are infinite other threads in other dimensions also feeding (and being fed) into this now, whose every manifestation is a singularity.

 

This is implied by the qualitylessness, and hence infinite potential of experience, but I am curious about the experiences that lead her to say this.

 

Mila, what are some of these other dimensions and what inspires you to mention them? I am interested in a broader view.

 

I am also interested in other ways that reality can be seen to be discontinuous or continuous, or perhaps more interestingly, things inbetween. This has been a long post, so maybe Steve or others might expand on the options.

 

Todd

 

 

Hi Todd,

 

Lots going on here that you have shared and more than meets the eye.

 

To answer generally, I mentioned other dimensions, partly because broadening our conceptions gives us opportunity to deepen the understanding we have of ourselves and existence. The inspiration to mention this is based on experience that moves beyond ordinary perception and theories.

 

I would be glad to reply to you more about your post in private. Preferably, if you don't mind sending me an email off the forum to: [email protected], I can respond to you there. Please give me a little time to compose a reply.

 

Thanks for your question and your insight into my post. Mila

[Creation]

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

I would like to quote a quote from that article which I think is very astute:

 

We never really see time. We see only clocks. If you say this object moves, what you really mean is that this object is here when the hand of your clock is here, and so on. We say we measure time with clocks, but we see only the hands of the clocks, not time itself. And the hands of a clock are a physical variable like any other. So in a sense we cheat because what we really observe are physical variables as a function of other physical variables, but we represent that as if everything is evolving in time.

 

So I the issue is not the physical realness of time, so much as the perception of time.

 

I suspect that this is related to what Mila was talking about. That upon shifting to a different plane one finds that the perception of time is changed.

 

For me, right now, the question is how to get myself healed on this plane, yet it seems that perhaps shifting planes could be relevant to that process.