[TTC Study] Chapter 49 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[devoid]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Thanks for posting this. I still have something to say about this as I had been holding back in the previous discussion which started off on an odd premise suggesting that the sage was not a sage

 

To me, this chapter is about integrity - it is about the ideal of being and acting as the role model we think others should follow rather than sinking to the level of those who obviously don't know better.

 

I should add on a personal note that this advice is not always easy to follow

 

Edit: typo

Edited July 10, 2011 by devoid

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Thanks for posting this. I still have something to say about this as I had been holding back in the previous discussion which started off on an odd premise suggesting that the sage was not a sage

 

To me, this chapter is about integrity - it is about the ideal of being and acting as the role model we think others should follow rather than sinking to the level of those who obviously don't know better.

 

I should add on a personal note that this advice is not always easy to follow

 

Edit: typo

 

To your personal note: You are damn well right!!! Hehehe.

 

I will never attain such a state. But yes, it is an ideal to be 'above' (or maybe beyond) being judgemental.

 

Accepting everyone for what they are without placing our expectations on them.

 

In the universe there are many things that one could consider 'bad' but for Tao they just are - no value judgements.

[Aaron]

Hello guys,

 

I think you're right Marblehead and Devoid, but I see it a bit differently. I think that being able to see this comes from being in harmony with the Tao (as mentioned before, we are always with Tao, just not in harmony). When one is in harmony then Te arises, which is right action, or what the Taoists might have called right action, really it's just the most beneficial action.

 

So a Sage sees a criminal and trusts him because he understands the true nature of the criminal, that the acts alone do not define the man, but that it goes deeper than that, it involves his place within the whole, so he can trust the man, because he knows the man for what he is, the man cannot betray him. He is kind to all because he knows that to do otherwise is not beneficial.

 

That's a simplistic description, but I have to get up to take the bus early tomorrow. Two and a half hours there and back. It's times like that, when you leave at 5am and get back at 8pm that it really helps to be in harmony, because if you're not it can really make you cranky. hehehe...

 

Anyways, good night and if I have time I'll hop on tomorrow. This is one of my favorite passages, many of the chapters in the 40s are, so it will be nice to see other people's opinions.

 

Aaron

[devoid]

Very nice insight, Marblehead and Twinner.

 

Twinner, I especially like your angle: A person is not per se inherently good or bad, but a complex being and as such will have good / virtuous AND less bad / less virtuous sides.

 

Marblehead: I agree with the non-judgement, yet I observe that of course one needs to evaluate an action (or inaction) to know what is virtuous. Thus, elements of the process of judging must somehow be in there, yet the last step of passing judgement is left out.

 

Thanks

[ChiDragon]

Does any of your editors do spell check on the word "judgment"...???

[devoid]

Does any of your editors do spell check on the word "judgment"...???

 

Good question: Probably the spell-checker is a sage who read chapter 49

[Marblehead]

Hi Aaron,

 

Nicely stated.

 

 

Hi Devoid,

 

Judgement: Yes, that's a tough one. You know, if we were constantly in the state of wu wei there would be no need for any kind of judgements. Of course, I think it is rare when one can attain the full state of wu wei and even then it doesn't last very long because our realities call us back to the manifest world where judgements are required.

 

 

Hi ChiDragon,

 

I like spelling judgment the way I spell it: Judgement. Hehehe. (Actually, both spellings are acceptable according to Mr. Webster.)

[manitou]

I do think it's possible to get to the point where we don't separate the realities of the real world from walking in the wu-wei. There is no reality in the real world. Every single person is going to see the same thing slightly differently. Its nature is relative.

 

The non-judg(e)mental mindset is one that tries for no differentiation. To love all equally. It's easier to love a poor person than a rich one sometimes because the rich one may have some built-in arrogance or pushiness to get to his rich state. But the sage finds a way to 'love' him as well, seeing through the piled-up excess to realize that that man too is actually Himself in a different form. To place judgments on others is to see with the eyes of one whose mind has become closed in some way. To See is something quite similar and yet different. We can See the obnoxious parts of someone, yet the sage will not discard that person for the obnoxious traits that he may have; to the opposite. The sage will find a use for the qualities of that person, as it says in the TTC. Because he's capable of Seeing, the sage knows not to take an untrustworthy person at his word. He can still be gentle and kind to that person, but the sage isn't an idiot either. He just doesn't foolishly sit in hopes that someone who is untrustworthy will keep his word. He knows better, and works around it to everyone's best advantage.

 

But in order for the sage to do this, the ego must be tamed; otherwise, the sage would not be a Seer. His own ego distortions would render his vision shadowy.

[Marblehead]

Nice to see you back in the realm of reality Manitou. Hehehe.

 

I don't know if I can handle all that "love" you are talking about but I'll try.

[Eric23]

Good question: Probably the spell-checker is a sage who read chapter 49

 

Looked it up in my old fashioned hard copy Merriam- Webster Dictionary judgment or judgement are acceptable. Should note the the latter got the red underline on TTB's spell check editor.

 

I find taking the time to look up a word leads to actually learning how the word is spelled. Edit: In retrospect, this is somehow related to chapter 48

 

Back to chapter 49.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Eric23

[ChiDragon]

Nice to see you back in the realm of reality Manitou. Hehehe.

 

I don't know if I can handle all that "love" you are talking about but I'll try.

It's not a matter of can one handle all that "love" rather how much can one handle the philosophy about "love".

Edited July 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 49 - The unselfish sage.

1. A Sage do not have a heart of selfishness.

2. He takes the heart of the people as his own.

3. Those whom are kind, I kind to them.

4. Those whom are not kind, I kind to them too.

5. Thus I gained kindness.

6. Those whom are trustworthy, I trust them.

7. Those whom are not trustworthy, I trust them too.

8. Thus I gained trust.

9. A ruler by restraining his personal ego,

10.Fulfill the necessity of the people.

11.Have people devoted to their own senses,

12.Then, he helped them all returned to the innocence of childhood.

 

 

1. 聖人無常心。

2. 以百姓心為心。

3. 善者吾善之。

4. 不善者吾亦善之

5. 德善。

6. 信者吾信之。

7. 不信者吾亦信之、

8. 德信。

9. 聖人在天下歙歙焉，

10.為天下渾其心。

11.百姓皆注其耳目，

12.聖人皆孩之。

Edited July 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

It's not a matter of can one handle all that "love" rather how much can one handle the philosophy about "love".

 

Ah! My teachers of love and attachment. Beware of all four-letter words.

 

Eeeeee-Ha!!!

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Chapter 49 - The unselfish sage.

 

Nice. Clunky, of course, but nice still.

[ChiDragon]

Nice. Clunky, of course, but nice still.

Perhaps this is less clunky.

How would you make it more acceptable in English...??? Please give it a try and help me to improve this translation. Thanks...

 

Chapter 49 - The unselfish sage.

1. A sage is always unselfish.

2. He considered the craves of others as his own.

3. I'm kind to those that are kind.

4. I'm kind to those that are not kind too.

5. Thus I've gained kindness.

6. I trust those that are trustworthy.

7. I trust those that are not trustworthy too.

8. Thus I've gained trust.

9. A ruler by dismissing his personal ego,

10. And fulfill the requisition of the people.

11. Let the people devote to their own senses,

12. And return to the innocence of childhood.

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

The Sage has no interests of his own,

But takes the interests of the people as his own.

 

English/Feng

 

The sage has no mind of his own.

He is aware of the needs of others.

 

Robert Henricks

 

The Sage constantly has no [set] mind;

He takes the mind of the common people as his mind.

All three translations neglect, that the term "yi wei" means "to think",

because the characters "yi" and "wei" are seperated in the second line,

which is an unusual sentence construction making the line readable:

 

The sage has no independent thoughts.

He thinks the thoughts of common people's thoughts.

 

That'll say, it's not the way of thinking, that makes a sage a sage!

[Marblehead]

All three translations neglect, that the term "yi wei" means "to think",

because the characters "yi" and "wei" are seperated in the second line,

which is an unusual sentence construction making the line readable:

 

The sage has no independent thoughts.

He thinks the thoughts of common people's thoughts.

 

That'll say, it's not the way of thinking, that makes a sage a sage!

 

Ah, yes.

 

Should I mention that I have a problem with these two lines as well? Not your translation but the concept being presented.

 

I just casn't believe that the Sage does not have thought of his/her own. We all have standards by which we live. To have these standards we must have had thoughts.

[lienshan]

Should I mention that I have a problem with these two lines as well?

Not your translation but the concept being presented.

 

I just casn't believe that the Sage does not have thought of his/her own.

The problem is, that line 2 of the Received version is scholarly perfect edited:

 

2. 以 百 姓 (之) 心 為 (之) 心 (the two 之 characters are grammatically correct omitted)

 

2. He takes common people their thoughts as his thoughts. (litterally translated)

 

The grammar formula is 以 X 為 Y = to take X as Y

 

What has been scholarly edited can be read in line 2 of the Mawangdui version:

 

2. 以 百 姓 之 心 為 (之) 心 (only one of 之 characters is grammatically correct omitted)

 

That's a unique way to reverse the formula 以 X 為 Y into 以 Y 為 X

 

2. Common people take his thoughts as their thoughts.

 

I think, that you prefer that translation to my first. But let's see, if others have objections?

Edited July 12, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

The problem is, that line 2 of the Received version is scholarly perfect edited:

 

CORRECT

2. 以 百 姓 (之) 心 為 (之) 心 (the two 之 characters are grammatically correct omitted)

2. He takes common people their thoughts as his thoughts. (litterally translated)

The grammar formula is 以 X 為 Y = to take X as Y

 

 

What has been scholarly edited can be read in line 2 of the Mawangdui version:

2. 以 百 姓 之 心 為 (之) 心 (only one of 之 characters is grammatically correct omitted)

 

INCORRECT

That's a unique way to reverse the formula 以 X 為 Y into 以 Y 為 X

2. Common people take his thoughts as their thoughts.

 

I think, that you prefer that translation to my first. But let's see, if others have objections?

 

以 百 姓 之 心 為 (之) 心 <------ the second (之) just gives it a little more emphasis.

以 百 姓 之 心 為 心

He takes the heart of the people as his heart.

 

In classic text, both lines are saying the something. The second (之) may be omitted or optional; and it was mentally understood that the second (之) is there. Thus the original thought have not changed.

Edited July 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

In classic text, both lines are saying the something. The second (之) may be omitted or optional; and it was mentally understood that the second (之) is there. Thus the original thought have not changed.

Please show us a similar example from another classic (pre-Qin) text

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ah, yes.

 

Should I mention that I have a problem with these two lines as well? Not your translation but the concept being presented.

 

I just casn't believe that the Sage does not have thought of his/her own. We all have standards by which we live. To have these standards we must have had thoughts.

 

Yeah, I think it's being a bit esoterically vague or incomplete. There is often the metaphor that the sage's mind is like a mirror. However, when it says this, it is saying that the mind does not hold on or grasp. When something comes up, the sage responds; when it passes, he lets it pass. His mind is clear. It's only full when someone comes along with a full mind and he responds like a reflection. When they're gone, the water reflects the vast blue sky again.

[ChiDragon]

Please show us a similar example from another classic (pre-Qin) text

 

MWD-A and B Chapter 64

执(之)者失之

执者失之

 

Those who possess it will lose it.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I think it's being a bit esoterically vague or incomplete. There is often the metaphor that the sage's mind is like a mirror. However, when it says this, it is saying that the mind does not hold on or grasp. When something comes up, the sage responds; when it passes, he lets it pass. His mind is clear. It's only full when someone comes along with a full mind and he responds like a reflection. When they're gone, the water reflects the vast blue sky again.

 

Nice way of putting that. Thanks.

[lienshan]

MWD-A and B Chapter 64

执(之)者失之

执者失之

 

Those who possess it will lose it.

It's the 以 character, that omits the 之 character according to classical chinese grammar.

 

Please show us one single example similar to the line discussed with a preceeding 以 character.