[TTC Study] Chapter 49 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

Sages, what's their physical being in the world, inhale and exhale.

Thereupon: The creation of the world's spoken communication!

Common people all concentrate their ears and eyes.

Thereupon: All newborn babies are sages!

The post above was totally incorrect and misleading.

What's incorrect concerning the logic of my reading?

[on the path]

Hi all,

I've been reading your posts and thought I might add this to the discussion. This book came out some twenty years ago and was given free by a then Daoist Foundation. It is a translation of Lao Tzu Dao De Jhing that has come from or should I say through a Daoist Shaman, Flowing Hands. His version of chapter 49 goes thus

 

 

The Sage is at one with the Dao, his mind is open and uncluttered.

He is aware of all things.

 

By having an open mind, he can act naturally,

and so he treats people and all things equally.

Like the Dao, he shows no preference.

 

The Sage appears quiet, humble and elusive.

If menseek it in their hearts,

they can find contentment by listening and watching the Sage.

 

 

 

I wondered after all these years what has happened to this version and the Master who gave us this version and then I came across his website www.life-in-crisis.info his direct translation can be downloaded from this site. You can see that a lot of the chapters are so different to what is written by translators. In the original book it is said that the reason for Flowing Hands being given this by Lao Tzu was because his original version in 600bc has lost a lot of its meaning!

[Marblehead]

The Sage is at one with the Dao, his mind is open and uncluttered.

He is aware of all things.

 

By having an open mind, he can act naturally,

and so he treats people and all things equally.

Like the Dao, he shows no preference.

 

The Sage appears quiet, humble and elusive.

If menseek it in their hearts,

they can find contentment by listening and watching the Sage.

 

Yes, that is an interpretation, not a translation. Nice, mind you, but still. And it is true, nearly all of us interpret the TTC for what it has to offer 'us'. I admit doing this myself.

 

Thanks for joining in.

[dawei]

[Marblehead]

I like that. Especially the indorporation of Dao and De as reflected through the Sage.

[lienshan]

The beginning of the Mawangdui chapter 49 viewed with fresh eyes

 

Holy men always have not use for hearts.

The hearts of the common people act hearts.

Goodness is the bad of the good ones,

just like Teh of the good ones is a good one.

 

It looks very strange at first sight, but read this quote from WU XING (5 moral conducts):

 

Benevolence from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Justice from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Propriety from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Wisdom from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Holiness from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

All these five parts can be called Teh.

Four parts together can be called goodness.

 

Laozi's pointe is that holy men, sages, possess the fifth virtuous conduct 'Holiness' per definition,

just like the common people doesn't possess 'Holiness' per definition.

WU XING was one of the exavacated Guodian bamboo slips texts.

WU XING was too one of the exavacated Mawangdui silk texts.

Confucius's grandson Zisi (481-402BC) is considered the author.

Edited September 14, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

The beginning of the Mawangdui chapter 49 viewed with fresh eyes

 

Holy men always have not use for hearts.

The hearts of the common people act hearts.

Goodness is the bad of the good ones,

just like Teh of the good ones is a good one.

 

It looks very strange at first sight, but read this quote from WU XING (5 moral conducts):

 

Benevolence from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Justice from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Propriety from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Wisdom from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

Holiness from the inner heart is a virtuous conduct and not from is a common behavior.

All these five parts can be called Teh.

Four parts together can be called goodness.

 

Laozi's pointe is that holy men, sages, possess the fifth virtuous conduct 'Holiness' per definition,

just like the common people doesn't possess 'Holiness' per definition.

WU XING was one of the exavacated Guodian bamboo slips texts.

WU XING was too one of the exavacated Mawangdui silk texts.

Confucius's grandson Zisi (481-402BC) is considered the author.

Well... Xunzi said Zisi was deluded, foolish and oblivious to where it goes wrong... Just saying

[lienshan]

Well... Xunzi said Zisi was deluded, foolish and oblivious to where it goes wrong... Just saying

Xunzi:

Some men follow the model of the Early Kings in a fragmentary way, but they do not understand its guiding principles. Still their abilities are manifold, their memory great,1 and their experience and knowledge both varied and broad. They have initiated a theory for which they claim great antiquity, calling it the Five Processes Theory. Peculiar and unreasonable in the extreme, it lacks proper logical categories. Mysterious and enigmatic, it lacks a satisfactory theoretical basis. Esoteric and laconic in its statements, it lacks adequate explanations. To give their propositions a cloak of respectability and to win respect and veneration for them, they claim:

'These doctrines represent the genuine words of the gentleman of former times.

Zisi provided the tune for them, and Mencius harmonized it.'

The stupid, indecisive, deluded Ru of today enthusiastically welcome these notions unaware that they are false. They pass on what they have received, believing that, on account of these theories, Confucius and Zigong would be highly esteemed by later generations. It is in just this that they offend against Zisi and Mencius.

Edited September 16, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

"There are those who, only superficially emulating the way of the former kings, do not understand its real substance. . . . What they have seen and learned is indeed extensive and varied. Basing their ideas on ancient lore, they concoct their new theory and call it wuxing. In fact, this theory is perverse and bizarre. It is a lot of obscure and impenetrable nonsense. They dress it up in eloquent language, and with great reverence say: "These are truly the words of the exemplary persons of old." Zisi sang this song, and Mencius chimed in with it. The deluded and foolish Confucians of our present day are thrilled with this theory and are wholly oblivious to where it goes wrong. . . . This then is the crime of Zisi and Mencius."

 

"There is an alternative explanation of Xunzi's complaint against the wuxing doctrine associated with Zisi and Mencius that might be more plausible. To begin with, we have no corroborating evidence that the wuxing cosmological theory that emerges in the Han dynasty was current as early as Xunzi. Given Xunzi's antipathy to such speculations and his willingness to speak out against heterodox philosophical ideas, the absence of any clear reference to this development would suggest that the target of Xunzi's ire is probably the moral doctrine associated with Zisi and Mencius."

 

"Finally, the passage from Xunzi condemning Zisi and Mencius is anything but ambiguous. It describes the wuxing doctrine as a gross distortion of historical antecedents, denounces the hyperbolic language in which it is presented, deplores the popularity it has garnered among contemporary Confucians, and blames Zisi and Mencius by name and in unequivocal terms, for their role in promoting what he takes to be heretical Confucianism."

 

"Xunzi's rejection of the wuxing doctrine would seem to be an opening volley in what becomes a contest between two importantly distinct interpretations of Confucian philosophy: the Xunzi lineage that had some prominence in the early Han dynasty, and the Mencian lineage that in the course of time was to supersede it."

 

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