"Manifesting"

[Marblehead]

 

@marble...I do understand what K is saying. I am merely reflecting the unnecessary hyperbole she used to defend her position.

 

Okay. Just wanted to aviod misunderstandings as much as possible. I'll hush. Hehehe.

[manitou]

Non-the-less, to expect that this is going to make everyone play nice or be just as open, or that life is going to be a perfect concept of heaven and you're going to manifest a million dollars due to this, without respect for inter-causation, of course, there is delusion in that ideation.

 

 

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. One cannot ever expect that everyone is going to play nice. But what we can do is have control over our reactions, as Five Element said. If we've done nothing to tame our egos (by doing inner work and getting down to the Real us) then we're always acting out of an ego perspective. If we've been able to do inner work and tame the ego, then we have 100% of response reactions to consider, not just 50%. We don't have to react with an equal amount of unkindness, fighting fire with fire. The sage would always react with love. Sometimes love means telling another person the absolute truth as you see it, but always doing it with kindness and regard for the feelings of the other person, no matter how obnoxious. The reaction that Love dictates is going to be different in each and every situation, and it takes a Sage to figure out how to do it.

 

The problem with walking around with targets on our chests is that there are some people who get a lot of emotional mileage from being a victim. I know plenty of people like this, as we all do. When we stop reacting blindly, it all changes.

 

As for manifesting a million dollars, this too can be done once the inner work is done. You will see things entirely differently, and if your heart lies with a million dollars, you can get it. However, if one's heart still lies with a million dollars, one isn't quite through with their journey.

 

There's no way in the world that this can be 'proven' to anybody - the inner journey must be taken first; the payoff is afterwards. It takes a long time, and nobody wants to hear that.

 

P.S. Thanks Otis - it's a quick and dirty way to get started.

[JustARandomPanda]

Yes, we should take responsibility for our own actions (and manifestations) but we cannot and should not even try to take responsibility for what anyone else manifests.

 

I will add though that how our actions and manifestations effect others is, in part, our responsibility too. This gets a little deep and I don't even know if I could speak well to it.

 

This is beautiful Marble. I agree with you.

 

I, for one, would be interested in hearing you expand upon the second paragraph even if you couldn't speak well to it.

[Vajrahridaya]

As for manifesting a million dollars, this too can be done once the inner work is done. You will see things entirely differently, and if your heart lies with a million dollars, you can get it. However, if one's heart still lies with a million dollars, one isn't quite through with their journey.

 

There's no way in the world that this can be 'proven' to anybody - the inner journey must be taken first; the payoff is afterwards. It takes a long time, and nobody wants to hear that.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've stated. If only I could fully be that all the time, starting right now! I am a work in progress.

 

When I made that statement about a million dollars I was more talking about "The Secret" club. There are good things that this club states, but there is also some delusion in there as well. It's cool that people are getting these ideas of self empowerment, but it's not a complete perspective in my opinion. Of course it, itself is a marketing ploy, and most people wouldn't be ready for more deeply nuanced perspectives. It's all a part of the global process anyway and it's not a bad part of it. I've just met some pretty delusional people toting it's teachings, strengthening their clinging to the illusion of the American Dream. Even though I agree that there is nothing wrong with abundance, internally and externally.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Of course it, itself is a marketing ploy, and most people wouldn't be ready for more deeply nuanced perspectives. It's all a part of the global process anyway and it's not a bad part of it.

 

 

Good point. I've heard heard someone call it "modern superstition" but really, it's just another way of using "faith" in the same way that Christianity (and others) has been recommending all along. Actually, the person that I heard term it "modern superstition" was a devout Christian, so that was a bit ironic

[Birch]

I was hoping K would respond in the hopes of stimulating a dialogue.

 

@marble...I do understand what K is saying. I am merely reflecting the unnecessary hyperbole she used to defend her position.

I don't believe for a second that K actually believes that people can cause harm or illness to others by taking responsibility for their own lives.

 

K mentioned the dynamic of feeling responsible for the behavior of others... I lived through a dysfunctional family dynamic so I can understand the co-dependent nature of feeling responsible for the dysfunction of family members. But taking responsibility for oneself is not the same as being blamed by another. I understand why some may have that reflexive reaction. But IME it is a defense mechanism.

 

However there is a HUGE difference between taking responsibility for the behavior of others and taking responsibility for one's own reactions to that behavior.

 

In terms of being a target, none can say that a child is responsible for being targeted by a parent. But once we are adults we do have a choice in terms of continuing to choose to view ourselves as a target. It is a very effective defense mechanism to continue to reinforce a perception of being targeted in order to try and counteract the abusive blame that parents often ascribe to the children they abuse. However, it is merely an extension of that same tactic when we as adults continue to blame our parents for their abusiveness. It is also a choice. Every time we relive those memories and we choose to perceive ourselves as helpless victims, we reinforce that perception. That is a choice.

 

This is one reason I firmly believe in reincarnation. Because from our limited perception there are helpless victims in this world. So, either there is a past-life karmic cause for these things or the Universe is unjust. It doesn't make sense to me that we live in an unjust Universe, so the only logical conclusion for me is to assume that there must be some past life karmic lesson that I have chosen to revisit in this life in order to learn from it.

 

It has helped me considerably is to consider that perhaps any challenges I have had in life are a result my pre-birth choice to grow in that area in this incarnation. It is very empowering to me because if I assume that it was my choice to learn this lesson, then I automatically seek to find ways to grow beyond my challenges. I view this earthly life as being a school that I have chosen to participate in. Some have chosen more difficult life lessons than others.

 

Now, I can't prove any of this is true, but ultimately I don't care because I have proven to myself in my life that simply the act of adopting the attitude of responsibility only helps me. Choosing to stay victimized does not help me. But each choice has it's downside. Choosing to stay victimized is easier but, then one tends to keep attracting scenarios of victimization and that's no fun. If the Universe is trying to help us grow past our challenges, then it only makes sense that the Universe will keep putting us into scenarios that repeat the same lessons until we choose to face them.

 

Choosing to adopt an attitude of responsibility is very empowering, BUT the downside is that one must be willing to fully face and mourn over the pain they have experienced and then one must have the bravery to overcome those challenges. That is harder than staying a victim.

 

So, regardless of the truth of these attitudes, I am only concerned with what helps me on a practical level.

 

I also believe that since we have all chosen our lot in life before we even got here, that while I can sympathize with the lot of others, I do not believe it serves them for me to join in with them in any attitudes of victimization. They will either choose to grow beyond their current state or they will not. I will do what I can to encourage those who choose to take the warrior path and grow past their challenges. If not, I will not reinforce their choice to avoid the lessons they themselves have chosen. This may seem cruel to others, but for me, it is the kindest tactic I know of...

 

I'm back to respond Sometimes I actually do stuff offline

 

Anyway 5ET. I'll try to answer some of your questions about what I said. I did mention I wasn't perhaps explaining it well enough but you decided that was "unnecessary hyperbole" on my part.

 

Correct. I do not believe "that people can cause harm or illness to others by taking responsibility for their own lives." I don't think I stated otherwise. What do I think potentially causes harm or illness is the way that this principle is communicated to others.

 

For those that are still enmeshed in 'dysfunctional' dynamics (and to be honest, sometimes I think 98% of our culture is based on that, but that's another topic:-)) the space for misunderstanding this principle is huge. Like the space for misunderstanding non-dualism is huge :-) Easy enough for the immature egoic self to swap one set of dysfunctional beliefs for another under the flag of 'spirituality' or 'self-realization' and say "I do all this".

 

"So, regardless of the truth of these attitudes, I am only concerned with what helps me on a practical level."

This is all well and good IMO/IME. It might not, however, be the best option for the people you're guiding/helping (I think you are in that role, if you're not then it doesn't matter to me).

 

I personally don't believe the universe to be 'fair' or 'unfair'. It is what it is. Beautiful, also violent destruction. My beliefs about my place in it, about other people, however, yes that runs the show quite some:-) My actions follow my beliefs so if my outcomes are crappy then I guess I know where to look. No belief in reincarnation required. Although I guess I'd find that fun if it were true and I could find out. But what would it do for me or anyone else today?

 

My statement about being a 'target' isn't that I'm 'targeted', rather that I just happen to be in the viewfinder for other people's perceptions from time to time. Maybe even their 'manifestations' sometimes;-) Nothing personal. Unless, of course it is :-)

 

"taking responsibility for one's own reactions to that behavior."

I think we agree on this one.

 

So thanks for pointing out that I didn't express myself well enough to be understood and that I used terms which are too personal to me for others to understand. I'm not being sarcastic, I actually appreciate it

[manitou]

My statement about being a 'target' isn't that I'm 'targeted', rather that I just happen to be in the viewfinder for other people's perceptions from time to time. Maybe even their 'manifestations' sometimes;-) Nothing personal. Unless, of course it is :-)

 

 

Hi again K - I just wanted to mention that I would bet my upbringing was every bit as bad as yours. My biggest liberation came one day when I realized my dad did the very same things to me that he had done to him when he was a kid. He was just giving me what he knew. His dad had the very same thing done to him. This kind of dysfunction is the gift that just keeps on giving. If I had had kids at the normal child-bearing age, I would have raised them up just the same way I was. With a heavy leather belt. If I had kids today I would be the best mother in the world. However, we have opted for puppies, particularly at our age.

 

When I was a kid, we had a little beagle named Gigi. Part of the family dysfunction was to beat the hell out of that little dog every time she did something we considered "bad". I fell right into this, why not? I was only 6. I beat the dog for about 6 years. Then one day, when I was 12 and about to wail on Gigi one more time, I hear a voice in my head say 'Look What You're Doing!' I never hit Gigi again, and I was reduced to tears at that moment. I remember it was the first time in my young life that I had ever turned my vision around to my own interior, and it was a shocker. Even for a 12 year old.

 

Our folks never had that moment of Aha! (at least not when they were raising us) that stopped their horrible behavior. They just never delved very deeply into their own souls at that time - and it really wasn't fashionable at the time I was raised to be introspective at all. My family was one that didn't 'believe' in psychiatry and things of that nature; any introspection at all. It was all about Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child. They honestly thought they were doing the right thing.

 

They weren't. But our ultimate understanding, love, and forgiveness of their behavior is our only liberation. Otherwise we remain in a continual state of 'blame' and victimhood that is counterproductive to a healthy life and healthy outlook. Blame is merely the other side of the victim coin.

[Birch]

"This kind of dysfunction is the gift that just keeps on giving"

 

Agreed!

 

I keep flipping over the 'coin' you suggest 'victim/blame'. I wonder if that's how you see me or if that's what comes across in my writing. It's actually quite tough to write about the way I was treated because do I fear others treating me as 'weak' and taking advantage as a result. Like there's a fault line in there that could be exploited by folks with less then stellar intentions.

 

I guess I equate 'forgiveness' with letting them off the hook for things that they "should" not have done but did. Maybe not your definition? I actually feel physically sick if I am asked to 'forgive' them or to consider their ignorance. I don't have the strength for it.

[manitou]

"This kind of dysfunction is the gift that just keeps on giving"

 

Agreed!

 

I keep flipping over the 'coin' you suggest 'victim/blame'. I wonder if that's how you see me or if that's what comes across in my writing. It's actually quite tough to write about the way I was treated because do I fear others treating me as 'weak' and taking advantage as a result. Like there's a fault line in there that could be exploited by folks with less then stellar intentions.

 

I guess I equate 'forgiveness' with letting them off the hook for things that they "should" not have done but did. Maybe not your definition? I actually feel physically sick if I am asked to 'forgive' them or to consider their ignorance. I don't have the strength for it.

 

 

It's not really strength you need - it's Will.

[Marblehead]

It's not really strength you need - it's Will.

 

And a large baseball bat might help some.

[fiveelementtao]

What do I think potentially causes harm or illness is the way that this principle is communicated to others.

What I have communicated is my own belief based on my experience. I haven't stated "this is the way it is." So, again I think you are projecting your own personal reactions on others here.

It might be helpful if you related this to you. I get that you feel that I communicate in a way that puts you on the defensive. So, instead of saying generalized statements of fact for "other" people. Why not state how it makes YOU feel. This is part of taking responsibility.

 

For those that are still enmeshed in 'dysfunctional' dynamics (and to be honest, sometimes I think 98% of our culture is based on that, but that's another topic:-)) the space for misunderstanding this principle is huge.

 

Are you saying that YOU are still enmeshed in dysfunctional circumstances and the space for misunderstanding is huge for YOU? If that is true, then owning that for yourself in a responsible way helps others (me) to communicate to you in way that you can hear it. Otherwise it is just comes across to me as a judgement and a condemnation.

"So, regardless of the truth of these attitudes, I am only concerned with what helps me on a practical level."

This is all well and good IMO/IME. It might not, however, be the best option for the people you're guiding/helping (I think you are in that role, if you're not then it doesn't matter to me).

 

OK, I'm not following the logic here... How is sharing what works practically for me not helpful to others? They can take it or leave it.

Although I guess I'd find that fun if it were true ( reincarnation) and I could find out. But what would it do for me or anyone else today?

I was very clear about that. If your current relationships and circumstances are a result of choices YOU made before being born, then that knowledge frees you to examine WHY you chose to be with certain people in this life and how you can grow from the challenges. But one would have to be willing to let go of protecting their victimhood.

My statement about being a 'target' isn't that I'm 'targeted', rather that I just happen to be in the viewfinder for other people's perceptions from time to time. Maybe even their 'manifestations' sometimes;-) Nothing personal. Unless, of course it is :-)?

Call it however you want. How is it that some people just happen to be in others' viewfinders and others are not? whatever semantics you use to describe it, the concept of "just being in others' viewfinder" still ends up being that you are a powerless victim of circumstance. I sense that the real issue is that you want to be free of this but you are still protective of the idea of being a target or a victim or whatever and how does that help you in life?

 

K- what I am hearing in most of your statements regarding what I have shared is that you feel that I am so powerful that if I state my experience that somehow just that act alone has the power to completely disempower others from making their own conclusions. What I am really sensing here is that whatever my dynamic is, that it pushes old childhood buttons in you from your past. I don't have the power to destroy others opinions or cause them harm by sharing my opinions. People are free to make their own conclusions. Sharing in a clear straightforward way what has worked for me cannot harm anyone.

 

So is this really about me or about how your parents treated you? and isn't that the real cause for learning how to become a target and a victim?

K - I am being honest and straightforward with you and I know that I may push your buttons and you may think I am an opinionated A-hole, but I think you are asking these questions because underneath it all you really want to find the power to change your life. You seem very protective of your victimhood and are defensive when others give you options to the contrary. It is easy to react defensively and feel criticized when people point out your protectiveness of your victimhood. But how does that serve you?

 

Why ask the questions if you are not willing to consider them. So, why not throw off the personal difficulty when people like me don't communicate in the exact manner you wish and simply focus on the meat of the message and give it a try even if it is outside of your experience?

What have you got to lose?

[Birch]

It's not really strength you need - it's Will.

 

What's your definition of "Will" Manitou?

 

-Interestingly enough it was the very thing my upbringing strove to rid from me.

 

Thanks Mr MH for a more pragmatic response ;-) Unfortunately a) they're too old and sick to be fought with baseball bats and it's below my own sense of self to be anything other than dutiful and respectful towards these people - funnily enough I wasn't respected by them c) I wouldn't hit a defenseless person - funnily enough that didn't stop them.

 

So, no, despite the rough treatment, turns out that I'm not a carrier of dysfunction towards others...I'm pretty hard on myself though. Working on that

 

I happen to disagree quite strongly when large philosophical terms get thrown around and at people without sufficient definition.

 

Manitou, I feel your sense of identity rests heavily on a lot of this stuff. And why not, if it's not doing anyone any harm?

 

I guess you'd suggest my nausea at your suggestion of forgiveness was self-inflicted as well? Interestingly enough, my mother used to tell me that it was all in my head and that it was up to me to feel the way I did after getting mistreatment. Now, was she a Taoist? Or was that something else?

[Marblehead]

Thanks Mr MH for a more pragmatic response ;-) Unfortunately a) they're too old and sick to be fought with baseball bats and it's below my own sense of self to be anything other than dutiful and respectful towards these people - funnily enough I wasn't respected by them c) I wouldn't hit a defenseless person - funnily enough that didn't stop them.

 

Hehehe. Well, yeah, I wasn't really serious about the baseball bat but more at simply protecting ourselves. Yes, when we were younger it was hard to fight those who were bigger and stronger. But when we become adults we can do many thing, sometimes the best being just moving away from the negative influences.

 

And I will agree that we should respect everyone at least until they have given us reason to no longer respect them.

[Birch]

Alright 5ET. I'll respond as best I can to this one too.

 

"What I have communicated is my own belief based on my experience. I haven't stated "this is the way it is." So, again I think you are projecting your own personal reactions on others here."

 

I happen to not share your belief. I tried to explain why (albeit quite badly) but no, I'm not projecting. I also happen to disagree with that whole 'projection' model.

 

"It might be helpful if you related this to you." Why?

 

" I get that you feel that I communicate in a way that puts you on the defensive." Um, no, I disagree. I think I'm allowed to disagree without that being suggested as 'defensive'.

 

"So, instead of saying generalized statements of fact for "other" people. Why not state how it makes YOU feel. This is part of taking responsibility." As far as I can tell. I did (and generally) do speak from the 'I feel' perspective. However, I've seen enough 'other people' hurt with some of this pseudo psycho/spirituality that I decided it was time for me to speak about it.

 

Are you saying that YOU are still enmeshed in dysfunctional circumstances and the space for misunderstanding is huge for YOU?

No. Although I did say there might be another thread about how dysfunctional our culture seems to be to me. Look at this forum, it's made for talking about this stuff. We spend our time defining and disagreeing :-) hence my opinion that there's a HUGE amount of room for it :-)

 

If that is true, then owning that for yourself in a responsible way helps others (me) to communicate to you in way that you can hear it. Otherwise it is just comes across to me as a judgement and a condemnation. How so? Are you projecting (sorry, I couldn't resist )

 

 

OK, I'm not following the logic here... How is sharing what works practically for me not helpful to others? They can take it or leave it. Sharing what works for you is fine. I said that already. Offering it to others as guidance to take or leave ok. Imposing it as teaching...very very dangerous IMO.

 

I was very clear about that. If your current relationships and circumstances are a result of choices YOU made before being born,

Jeez, I didn't make any choices before being born. Or rather, "it's not in my belief-system" It's in yours? Fine. Just don't attempt to impose your beliefs on me :-)

 

"then that knowledge frees you to examine WHY you chose to be with certain people in this life and how you can grow from the challenges. But one would have to be willing to let go of protecting their victimhood."

One can always grow from challenges. I agree. No 'victimhood' here, although it does seem that I have to do a lot of responding to stuff on TTB's these days ;-) But hey. I disagree, I 'own' that dude.

 

Call it however you want. How is it that some people just happen to be in others' viewfinders and others are not? whatever semantics you use to describe it, the concept of "just being in others' viewfinder" still ends up being that you are a powerless victim of circumstance.

No, not at all. Look, right now I'm in your face for some reason. I happen to disagree with a lot of what is being put 'out there' in psycho-spritual circles so I've decided to speak up about how and why I disagree.

 

" I sense that the real issue is that you want to be free of this but you are still protective of the idea of being a target or a victim or whatever and how does that help you in life?"

Where on earth do you get this 'sense' from?

 

 

K- what I am hearing in most of your statements regarding what I have shared is that you feel that I am so pwoerful that if I state my experience that somehow just that act alone has the power to completely disempower others from making their own conclusions. What I am really sensing here is that whatever my dynamic is, that it pushes old childhood buttons in you from your past. I don't have the power to destroy others opinions or cause them harm by sharing my opinions. People are free to make their own conclusions. Sharing in a clear straightforward way what has worked for me cannot harm anyone.

I've said enough on this above.

 

So is this really about me or about how your parents treated you? and isn't that the real cause for learning how to become a target and a victim?

K - I am being honest and straightforward with you and I know that I may push your buttons and you may think I am an opinionated A-hole, but I think you are asking these questions because underneath it all you really want to find the power to change your life. You seem very protective of your victimhood and are defensive when others give you options to the contrary. It is easy to react defensively and feel criticized when people point out your protectiveness of your victimhood. But how does that serve you?

It has nothing to do with "you" and everything to do with how 'up to the gills' I am with reading the BS I sometimes read on the 'spiritual path'. I think my parents treatment of me has nothing to do with you either. Where did you make that connection? Nor did I say you were an opinionated A-hole. I did, however, say I was concerned if you (or others) were leading/guiding people on path with badly explained spiritual 'principles'.

 

Why ask the questions if you are not willing to consider them. So, why not throw off the personal difficulty when people like me don't communicate in the exact manner you wish and simply focus on the meat of the message and give it a try even if it is outside of your experience?

What have you got to lose?

What makes you say I'm not interested in considering the questions? I don't agree with some of the answers. Some I do. Did you look at the things I said I agreed with or are you stuck on the stuff I disagree with?

 

I don't have anything to lose since I'm not anyone here :-)

[fiveelementtao]

(sigh)

K

I get it that your parents shoved their opinion down your throat and blamed you for everything. I also get it that I remind you of them in how I share my opinions. But I am not blaming you for what you have lived through. I am sharing what has worked for me.

 

It is frustrating to me as I read your posts that it seems that any time someones suggests to you (especially me) that you are responsible for everything in your life that you can only hear it as blame or criticism and spend your energy defending yourself and intellectually arguing against what you "do and don't believe in" instead of focusing on the merits of what people are saying.

 

I think Manitou is explaining the concept very well and in a very compassionate way, so perhaps I should give the floor to her.

 

So, I will retire from this thread. Good luck...

[Birch]

[Marblehead]

I don't have anything to lose since I'm not anyone here :-)

 

True, you have nothing to lose.

 

However, you are someone here. And you are special. Never forget that.

[manitou]

What's your definition of "Will" Manitou?

 

-Interestingly enough it was the very thing my upbringing strove to rid from me.

 

Thanks Mr MH for a more pragmatic response ;-) Unfortunately a) they're too old and sick to be fought with baseball bats and it's below my own sense of self to be anything other than dutiful and respectful towards these people - funnily enough I wasn't respected by them c) I wouldn't hit a defenseless person - funnily enough that didn't stop them.

 

So, no, despite the rough treatment, turns out that I'm not a carrier of dysfunction towards others...I'm pretty hard on myself though. Working on that

 

I happen to disagree quite strongly when large philosophical terms get thrown around and at people without sufficient definition.

 

Manitou, I feel your sense of identity rests heavily on a lot of this stuff. And why not, if it's not doing anyone any harm?

 

I guess you'd suggest my nausea at your suggestion of forgiveness was self-inflicted as well? Interestingly enough, my mother used to tell me that it was all in my head and that it was up to me to feel the way I did after getting mistreatment. Now, was she a Taoist? Or was that something else?

 

 

My definition of Will, in this particular instance, would be if you admitted that you had some dysfunction inside yourself (due to your folks, no doubt) and became willing to do something about it. The easiest way to do recovery work (which is what you would be doing, recovering from your horrible upbringing) is to assume you have every character defect in the world. Be sure to include defensiveness and fear of what others may think. Then look at each and every character defect and see to what degree you have it in your life; how it plays out each and every day. This is how we bring Real Life into our soul do the inner work so we can discover the pony at the bottom of the manure pile.

 

At the bottom of the manure pile is a type of (what the Christians would call) Agape Love. Love for everything in life; the willingness to not make judgment; to have no fears because you've gotten under the fear of death in your inner work. It takes a very long time to do this, but being self-reflective one day at a time will start the process; then the process will continue on its own. But you have to make the start by being Willing to make some changes. Your life is on hold until you get under the blame and victimization. You will constantly attract these things to yourself because your inner self still 'needs' to feel victimized.

 

If this sounds crazy to you, I understand. It sure did to me when I had to start the process due to alcoholism and extreme anger at my folks too.

[Marblehead]

Post noted but I will wait for Kate to respond.

[C T]

Hello K,

 

I have no advice to offer you... sorry. All i want to do is share an excerpt (that i happen to resonate with) from a book by Alan Watts, and to tell you that i value your presence here on the forum.

 

"Wisdom does not consist in arriving at a particular place, and no one need imagine that it is necessarily obtained by climbing a ladder whose rungs are the successive stages of psychological experiences. That ladder has no end, and the entrance to enlightenment, wisdom, or spiritual freedom may be found on any one of its rungs. If you discover it, it does not mean you will not have to keep on climbing the ladder; you need to go on climbing just as you need to go on living. But enlightenment is found by fully accepting the place where you stand now. Modern man finds himself in the stage of human evolution where there is maximum division between his ego and the universe; for him, (the beginning of) enlightenment is the complete acceptance of this division. Psychological techniques may fail because people do not accept fully the various stages involved; they accept them with the sole object of reaching a certain goal - in such circumstances they may indeed reach that state, but without finding what they truly desire inwardly. As a result, some people who imagine they have completed that phase of psychological work are often as unhappy as ever.

 

Mere exploration of the unconscious is no road to wisdom, for a fool may learn much and experience much but still be a fool. He becomes wise only when he has the humility to let himself be free to be a fool. As Chuang Tzu said, "He who knows he is a fool is not a great fool".

 

The way of acceptance and spiritual freedom is found not by going somewhere, but in going, and the stage where its happiness can be known is now, at this very moment, at the very place where you happen to stand. It is in accepting fully your state as it is now, not in trying to force yourself into some other state, which, out of pride, you imagine to be a superior and more advanced state. It is not a question of whether your present state is good or bad, neurotic or normal, elementary or advanced; it is a question of what it is. The point is not to accept it in order to pass on to a 'higher' state, but to accept because this acceptance in itself IS the higher state, if such it may be called." (A. Watts)

 

Hope the above in some way could sparkle a small 'aha' moment for you.

 

Wishing you well always.

[Birch]

My definition of Will, in this particular instance, would be if you admitted that you had some dysfunction inside yourself (due to your folks, no doubt) and became willing to do something about it. The easiest way to do recovery work (which is what you would be doing, recovering from your horrible upbringing) is to assume you have every character defect in the world. Be sure to include defensiveness and fear of what others may think. Then look at each and every character defect and see to what degree you have it in your life; how it plays out each and every day. This is how we bring Real Life into our soul do the inner work so we can discover the pony at the bottom of the manure pile.

 

At the bottom of the manure pile is a type of (what the Christians would call) Agape Love. Love for everything in life; the willingness to not make judgment; to have no fears because you've gotten under the fear of death in your inner work. It takes a very long time to do this, but being self-reflective one day at a time will start the process; then the process will continue on its own. But you have to make the start by being Willing to make some changes. Your life is on hold until you get under the blame and victimization. You will constantly attract these things to yourself because your inner self still 'needs' to feel victimized.

 

If this sounds crazy to you, I understand. It sure did to me when I had to start the process due to alcoholism and extreme anger at my folks too.

 

Hi Manitou, thanks for answering my question.

"Foul" on including a reference to my "life-story" in your example. As far as I know, I'm the only person allowed to talk about it:-)

 

'Willing to do something about it' Actually am :-) What am I doing about it? Questioning, thinking, acting to change reactions (mine), introspecting, practicing meditation, some bodywork, studying, research (and not just Taoism) discussing what I understand (or don't) with other people. Enjoying life:-) Contributing. I suspect we probably practice some very similar things:-).

 

Of course I have every character 'defect' in the world, I'm a person (and last time I checked, all that came with :-)). The degree to which I have each is often pointed out by other people (or by consequences) but I accept that. What I'm not in favour of, is the use of my own defects by others to deflect attention around debate

 

I actually don't care what you think of me but I do care about the topic at hand. So can I suggest we stick to it?

 

I actually have first hand experience of what I'd call a 'manifesting sequence' (belief--thought/feeling--action) so while I may disagree with the content of some beliefs, like 'reincarnation' or 'choosing' one's birth (or that I'm a victim ) I actually do agree with the mechanisms for it. As far as I can understand so far, TTC teaches the mechanisms and not content. I think some brands of buddhism do too. I just had a flash about jing---qi---shen...

 

I am not under the whatever of "blame and victimization" and my life is not 'on hold'. I ought to know that, giving I'm the person living it:-) I'm also not a Christian and I have some disagreement with organized religions but I do play 'spot the cadecus' and mull over similarities (and differences) in each.

 

I've met a few of my ponies already :-) There almost certainly some more under there. In fact post discussing this stuff, I went looking for a few definitions and found some really interesting articles. So I mentally thanked both you and 5ET for that.

 

I'm off for a few days vacation.

[Marblehead]

Hi Kate,

 

Excellent response. I need say nothing more at the moment.

[Jetsun]

The way of acceptance and spiritual freedom is found not by going somewhere, but in going, and the stage where its happiness can be known is now, at this very moment, at the very place where you happen to stand. It is in accepting fully your state as it is now, not in trying to force yourself into some other state, which, out of pride, you imagine to be a superior and more advanced state. It is not a question of whether your present state is good or bad, neurotic or normal, elementary or advanced; it is a question of what it is. The point is not to accept it in order to pass on to a 'higher' state, but to accept because this acceptance in itself IS the higher state, if such it may be called." [/i] (A. Watts)

 

This is something I have found to be true in my life. 'Will' can be in opposition to this sort of acceptance and can just be another form of denial of reality as you are always trying to get away from of where you are at. So 'will' can just be a form of resistance and whatever resists persists so it actually keeps you stuck. But it all depends on where you are at in your individual circumstances.

[Marblehead]

This is something I have found to be true in my life. 'Will' can be in opposition to this sort of acceptance and can just be another form of denial of reality as you are always trying to get away from of where you are at. So 'will' can just be a form of resistance and whatever resists persists so it actually keeps you stuck. But it all depends on where you are at in your individual circumstances.

 

Wherever you are, there you are.

 

We all have to start from where we are.

[manitou]

I've met a few of my ponies already :-)

 

 

Actually, there's only one pony to meet.