[TTC Study] Chapter 50 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 50

 

 

John Wu

 

When one is out of Life, one is in Death.

The companions of life are thirteen; the companions of Death are thirteen;

And, when a living person moves into the Realm of Death,

His companions are also thirteen.

How is this?

Because he draws upon the resources of Life too heavily.

It is said that he who knows well how to live

Meets no tigers or wild buffaloes on his road,

And comes out from the battle-ground untouched by the weapons of war.

For, in him, a buffalo would find no butt for his horns,

A tiger nothing to lay his claws upon,

And a weapon of war no place to admit its point.

How is this?

Because there is no room for Death in him.

 

 

 

English/Feng

 

Between birth and death,

Three in ten are followers of life,

Three in ten are followers of death,

And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten.

Why is this so?

Because they live their lives on the gross level.

He who knows how to live can walk abroad

Without fear of rhinoceros or tiger.

He will not be wounded in battle.

For in him rhinoceroses can find no place to thrust their horn,

Tigers no place to use their claws,

And weapons no place to pierce.

Why is this so?

Because he has no place for death to enter.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

We come out into life and go back into death.

The companions of life are thirteen;

The companions of death are thirteen;

And yet people, because they regard life as LIFE,

In all of their actions move towards the thirteen that belong to the realm of death.

Now, why is this so?

It's because they regard life as LIFE.

You've no doubt heard of those who are good at holding on to life:

When walking through hills, they don't avoid rhinos and tigers;

When they go into battle, they don't put on armor or shields;

The rhino has no place to probe with its horn;

The tiger finds no place to put its claws.

And weapons find no place to hold their blades.

Now, why is this so?

Because there is no place for death in them.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[manitou]

I have no knowledge of the reference of the 13, although I do know that it is considered a sacred number. This just wasn't my path.

 

But I think that Castaneda (my path) would interpret this as having no Fear of death as well. When the fear is gone and death is embraced as the natural life phase that it is, this is the vibratory frequency that keeps one safe from harm. I've had enough close shaves within the past several years that I've been in 'consciousness' that I'm actually starting to believe there's something to this.

[Marblehead]

I have no knowledge of the reference of the 13, although I do know that it is considered a sacred number. This just wasn't my path.

 

I did research that once but have forgotten. Maybe one of our specialists will let us know.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 50

Translation in terse English:

 

1. From birth to death,

2. Those who lived longer are three out of ten,

3. Those who die sooner are three out of ten,

4. Some of the people could have lived longer,

5. But they choose to run toward death,

6. Also, three out of ten.

7. Then, why so?

8. It was due to their extravagant way of life style.

9. I heard one who knows how to preserve life,

10.Walking on land will not meet a rhinoceros or a tiger.

11.Enlisted man will not be harmed by weapons.

12.Rhinoceros has no chance to thrust its horn.

13.Tiger has no chance to utilize its claws.

14.Weapon have no chance to cut with its sharpen edge.

15.Then, why so?

16.Because one has not entered a fatal environment.

 

Note:

十有三, has two possible interpretations:

1. Three out of ten.

2. Ten plus three which is thirteen.

 

It was improper to translate it as "thirteen" within context here.

 

 

1. 出生入死。

2. 生之徒，十有三。

3. 死之徒，十有三。

4. 人之生，

5. 動之於死地，

6. 亦十有三。

7. 夫何故﹖

8. 以其生生之厚。

9. 蓋聞善攝生者，

10.陸行不遇兇虎，

11.入軍不被甲兵。

12.兇無所投其角。

13.虎無所用其爪。

14.兵無所容其刃。

15.夫何故﹖

16.以其無死地。

Edited July 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hi ChiDragon,

 

Nice translation in my mind.

 

Well, as you chose to use the 'three out of ten' instead of the 'thirteen' I decided to look at Henricks' notes to the chapter.

 

His notes are rather long so I will not type them all in but just say that he states that it was with reluctance that he used 'thirteen' but justified doing so.

 

He does state that 'three out of ten' is the preferred translation.

[ChiDragon]

Hi ChiDragon,

 

Nice translation in my mind.

 

Well, as you chose to use the 'three out of ten' instead of the 'thirteen' I decided to look at Henricks' notes to the chapter.

 

His notes are rather long so I will not type them all in but just say that he states that it was with reluctance that he used 'thirteen' but justified doing so.

 

He does state that 'three out of ten' is the preferred translation.

Thanks.

 

Yes, in the Chinese system, ten was the highest number for quantitative expression. e.g. three out of ten as 30%; and the western expression is 30 out of 100 as 30%

[manitou]

Okay, I've got Old Man Yutang on my lap. He says

 

Out of life, death enters.

The organs of life are thirteen

The organs of death are (also) thirteen.

What send man to death in this life are also (these) thirteen.

How is it so?

Because of the intense activity of multiplying life.

 

 

Then he has a footnote by the thirteen in the second line: 'According to Han Fei, the four limbs and nine external cavities. Another orthodox reading is "three tenths," but this makes less sense.'

 

Sounds like he's not totally sold on either nuance of interpretation.

[ChiDragon]

十有三, has two possible interpretations:

1. Three out of ten.

2. Ten plus three which is thirteen.

 

Item 1 was talking about percentage.

It was obvious that Chapter 50 was talking about the percentage of the mortality rate of the people.

 

2. Those who lived longer are three out of ten(30%),

3. Those who die sooner are three out of ten(30%),

4. Some of the people could have lived longer,

5. But they choose to run toward death,

6. Also, three out of ten(30%).

 

Line 2 says 30% of the people lived through their lifespan.

Line 3 says 30% of the people die before their lifespan due to illness.

Line 6 says 30% of the people die due to drugs, alcohol, and dangerous lifestyle.

The other 10% was unknown.

 

Item 2. Ten plus three which is thirteen.

In the Chinese custom, this was a formal way to express somebody's age. e.g. For the age of 13; it would be expressed as 十有三(10 plus 3).

[Marblehead]

Good points Y'all.

 

Personally, I perfer the 'three out of ten'. Makes more sense to me as opposed to talking about the parts of the human body.

[on the path]

Hi,

 

Here is Flowing hands version that is said to have come directly from Lao Tzu himself.

 

 

 

Between birth and death, men live their lives in different ways.

Some are followers of the Dao.

Some are followers of the ways of mankind.

Some are followers of greed and lust.

Some are followers of evil.

Why is this?

 

Because man has sought to change things and interfere.

So he has upset the balance within himself and others.

 

The Sage knows this and rejects that.

He knows the ways of the ten thousand things as well as man.

Thus he can live in harmony with all things and all men.

The tiger will not attack him, men will not seek to wound him.

He makes no room for death to enter.

[stan herman]

Hi,

 

Here is Flowing hands version that is said to have come directly from Lao Tzu himself.

 

 

 

Between birth and death, men live their lives in different ways.

Some are followers of the Dao.

Some are followers of the ways of mankind.

Some are followers of greed and lust.

Some are followers of evil.

Why is this?

 

Because man has sought to change things and interfere.

So he has upset the balance within himself and others.

 

The Sage knows this and rejects that.

He knows the ways of the ten thousand things as well as man.

Thus he can live in harmony with all things and all men.

The tiger will not attack him, men will not seek to wound him.

He makes no room for death to enter.

 

I appreciate this one--a clearer message. I also like this one:

 

50. People, in commensurate numbers, are busy being born and dying. Fearful, many strive for impregnability. Seeing only death at the end of life, they long for immortality. Perceiving no other means than through their progeny, they propagate.

 

But, those who know the way know they live in immortality now. In the midst of danger they are not threatened. Confident of their invincibility they allow themselves to be vulnerable. They do not fear because there is no place in them for death to dwell.

[Marblehead]

Yea! More interpretations!

 

I think it is good that we have allow ourselves to include various interpretations as well as the translations.

 

Keep up the good work Y'all!

[dawei]

I am not going to argue too strongly here since we will just be told it is wrong if it does not agree with certain modern, native translators.

 

But to translate as a fraction is not well supported given how they usually specify a fraction in classical text; the construction is not the same. To say "3 out of 10" will leave a left-over of one, so that kind of translation is clumsy; 1/3 would be simple and obvious to say, if you ever graduated even fourth grade math.

 

The earliest pre-han texts have mention of the nine orifices and four limbs (13); so life and death depend on these bodily accompaniments. The very first commentary on the Lao Zi mentions it in this way as well.

 

The simple solution is to translate without any reference to actual numbers... duh...

[ChiDragon]

3 out of 10 is

3/10 = 30%

 

1 out of 3 is

1/3 = 33.33333%

Edited July 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Actually, I wasn't comfortable with the way Henricks presented this chapter when I first read it. Later when I read my first translation of Chuang Tzu I was able to feel better with it. Chuang Tzu spoke very nicely to the concepts within the chapter.

[ChiDragon]

The earliest pre-han texts have mention of the nine orifices and four limbs (13); so life and death depend on these bodily accompaniments. The very first commentary on the Lao Zi mentions it in this way as well.

I believe that you are talking about, Han Fei's(韓非子) interpretation. Yes, most people followed his interpretation.

My source had been invalidated his interpretation. You may go to page 258 on the site below for this.

(韓非子) Han Fei's interpretation

 

 

PS...

You seem to have a good source of references. May I know what are they and where did you get them from....???

Edited July 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[rene]

... To say "3 out of 10" will leave a left-over of one...

 

Yes. The 'left-over one' is the 'one who knows how to live...'

 

All ten accounted for.

[ChiDragon]

Yes. The 'left-over one' is the 'one who knows how to live...'

 

All ten accounted for.

3 will die of natural causes.

3 will die of illnesses.

3 will die of extravagant lifestyle.

1 was unknown because LaoTze didn't say but left room for discovery.

 

Yes! Indeed, all ten accounted for.

Edited July 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

3 out of 10 is

3/10 = 30%

 

1 out of 3 is

1/3 = 33.33333%

Lin Yutang said the fraction "makes less sense". I tend to agree. We don't need fuzzy math here at account for any left-overs

 

He translates as:

Out of Life, Death enters.

The companions (organs) of life are thirteen.

The companions (organs) of death are (also) thirteen.

What send man to death in this life are also (these) thirteen.

 

Edited: I see that Yutang's translation was already shared.

 

Read in conjunction with Chapter 76, one sees not three kinds of people but more like phases to life. The phrases "companions of life" , "companions of death" is used there as well.

Edited July 15, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

This is a curious line:

Wu: And, when a living person moves into the Realm of Death, His companions are also thirteen.

 

English/Feng:

And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten.

 

Hendricks:

In all of their actions move towards the thirteen that belong to the realm of death.

 

Yutang:

What send man to death in this life are also (these) thirteen.

 

One variation I once read mentioned it as, the "thirteen deadly places"; meaning that these [13] companions of life are what contribute towards one's death. This agrees with Chapter 76 which uses "companions" of life and death. As softness gives way to hardness and weak gives way to strong, so life gives way to death.

Edited July 15, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Okay! I think we got all the modernization stuff out of the way.

 

The Chinese numbering system uses the base of ten. It seems to me they did not have a way to express fractions. They tend to round off the numbers and ignored the fraction. e.g. The Tao Te Ching was found written more the five thousand character, 5000 to 5600. Perhaps, in the history recording, the Tao Te Ching was claimed as "五千言", the five thousand character document. In fact, we knew that the Tao Te Ching was not exactly five thousand characters.

 

For a scholastice discussion sake, let's not let anything out.

From my source, "three out of ten" was meant to be 1/3 and rounded off the rest by cultural tradition. It was customary that the Chinese always use approximation when speaking about quantitative numbers. Unfortunately, it was not as precise as the westerners going to the exact number.

[dawei]

I believe that you are talking about, Han Fei's(韓非子) interpretation. Yes, most people followed his interpretation.

My source had been invalidated his interpretation. You may go to page 258 on the site below for this.

(韓非子) Han Fei's interpretation

 

 

PS...

You seem to have a good source of references. May I know what are they and where did you get them from....???

I don't think chinese links are going to really help anyone here understand the background. I won't attempt to read them.

 

I have my own version of the Han Fei interpretation. Although I would not say that most people followed his interpretation. The origin of the nine orifices and four limbs (13) idea is in other writings.

 

Han Fei:

A person's body has three hundred and sixty sections, and the four extremities and the nine openings are its greatest implements. The four extremities and nine openings total thirteen. The movements of these thirteen all belong to life, and so can be called 'dependencies'.

 

Huainanzi:

The round shape of our head emulates heaven. The square shape of our feet emulates earth. Heaven has the four seasons, the five planetary movements, the nine divisions, and the 366 days. Human beings follow suit by having four limbs, five organ systems, nine orifices, and 366 joints. In heaven are wind and rain and cold and summer heat, while human temperament is distinguished by taking and giving and joy and anger. Our gallbladder, moreover, functions like clouds, the lung like mist, the liver like wind, the kidney like rain, and the spleen like thunder. All of these are manifestations of our union with heaven and earth.

 

Huang Di Nei Jing (Yellow Emperor's Classic of medicine)

The Yellow Emperor said: “Since ancient times the connection to heaven has been the foundation of all life. Yin and yang of heaven (moon and sun) are the original source of life. Everything that is situated between heaven and earth and enveloped by the six directions—the nine regions of the earth or the nine orifices of the human body, or the five organ systems, or the twelve major joints—is connected to the qi of heaven. The yin and yang of heaven engender the five evolutive phases on earth, which correspond to the three yin qi and the three yang qi of heaven. If we ignore this vital connection between heaven, earth, and human beings, we risk to be harmed by pathological influences. This is the main principle of health and longevity.

 

Guan Zi Nei Ye (Inner Training of Guan Zi)

The Dao fills the world and spreads through everywhere that people dwell,

yet the people cannot understand it.

Through the explanation of a single phrase

one may penetrate to heaven, reach the limits of the earth,

and coil through all the nine regions.

. . .

When the fountainhead never runs dry,

the limbs are firm.

When the wellspring is never exhausted,

the nine bodily orifices are penetrating.

 

Burial example:

During the Zhou dynasty, jade was placed with the dead. During the Han, the nine orifices were plugged with Jade.

 

Ancient food for the nine orifices:

Eat black Lingzhi (fungus)

 

Ancient Qi breathing:

The Mawangdui breath-cultivation texts and parts of Yinshu, a manual of daoyin exercises excavated together with Maishu from the Zhangjiashan tomb site, are textual expansions of jade breathing technique:

The way to breathe qi: it must reach to the extremities........Breathing must be deep and sustained. Fresh qi is easy to hold on to, qi that has been kept over night is ageing, fresh qi creates long life. The one who is good at putting the qi in order causes the qi that has been kept overnight to disperse during the night and fresh qi to collect in the morning by penetrating the nine orifices and filling the six

cavities.

Edited July 15, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Okay! I think we got all the modernization stuff out of the way.

 

The Chinese numbering system uses the base of ten. It seems to me they did not have a way to express fractions. They tend to round off the numbers and ignored the fraction. e.g. The Tao Te Ching was found written more the five thousand character, 5000 to 5600. Perhaps, in the history recording, the Tao Te Ching was claimed as "五千言", the five thousand character document. In fact, we knew that the Tao Te Ching was not exactly five thousand characters.

 

For a scholastice discussion sake, let's not let anything out.

From my source, "three out of ten" was meant to be 1/3 and rounded off the rest by cultural tradition. It was customary that the Chinese always use approximation when speaking about quantitative numbers. Unfortunately, it was not as precise as the westerners going to the exact number.

I completely agree that it was customary for numbers to be used as an example of 'some' or 'many'. If I choose to translate according to the possibility of a fractional meaning, I would probably say "some" since precision is not intended, IMO.

 

What is the dating of your source? Even if approximate?

[rene]

I yield to others to argue

over fingers, 10 or 13...

 

Laozi's moon rises clearly,

for all who breathe.

[ChiDragon]

dawei...

hmmmmmmmm......

That was a little too mythical for me.

Edited July 16, 2011 by ChiDragon