[TTC Study] Chapter 50 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

I completely agree that it was customary for numbers to be used as an example of 'some' or 'many'. If I choose to translate according to the possibility of a fractional meaning, I would probably say "some" since precision is not intended, IMO.

 

What is the dating of your source? Even if approximate?

I just knew it by heart. I think 司馬遷(Si Ma Qian) recorded as such.

[ChiDragon]

I yield to others to argue

over fingers, 10 or 13...

 

Laozi's moon rises clearly,

for all who breathe.

rene....

Are you the same rene that I knew...???

[rene]

rene....

Are you the same rene that I knew...???

Part of me is, most likely.

[ChiDragon]

Part of me is, most likely.

Hopefully, I get to know the whole you.......

[dawei]

dawei...

hmmmmmmmm......

That was a little too mythical for me.

I see you use that comment now and again.

 

By your own reckoning; chinese medicine, qigong, legalist, and Lao Zi are mystics.

 

You actually speak more truth than you realize.

[Marblehead]

WoW! Y'all have been busy while I slept last night.

 

Nice discussion. And nice to see Rene back with us.

 

Yeah, I prefer the "three of ten" (plus the one who knows, hehehe) but "thirteen" is just as valid.

 

The poing being though, how we interact with the rest of the manifest reality. Will we be one with the "one" or be one of those at the three poles?

[dawei]

I just knew it by heart. I think 司馬遷(Si Ma Qian) recorded as such.

Sima Qian is an ancient historian we are all indebted to. He followed the Huang-Lao philosophy that Huainanzi was said to follow. His "School of Six" (Yin-Yang, Confucian, Mohist, Legalists, School of Names, and Daoists) had an final nod to the Daoist as taking all the best of the other schools. For this reason, such ideas are sometimes classified as a "miscellaneous" school.

 

I seriously doubt Sima Qian had a specific comment on this chapter. But the interpretation of this chapter is said by Chan as "50/50". At least he is honest.

[Taoist Texts]

道德經50

 

《道德經》: 出生入死。The balance of births and deaths in a state

生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。On average out of 100% of the population, 30% are just born, 30% are nearing death; and 30% are of productive age.

夫何故？以其生，生之厚。How can the productive age population be multiplied?

蓋聞善攝生者，To enlarge this population stratum

陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。

it should be kept safe from wild animals and war.

夫何故？以其無死地。

Or in other words, it should not be placed in the ‘lands of death’. (places of danger).

 

 

Basically this is about husbanding the population by the king. The best way to do it is to keep it out of danger, then it will multiply on its own. Its that simple.

 

Of course later on this was made to be about some fantasy taoists being good at managing own vitality to the point of becoming impermeable to sharp objects. Right.

[Marblehead]

Interesting chapter. I have always had a hard time with the first half of this chapter. And I have always considered this chapter to be two separate collections of thoughts.

 

The second half I have no problem with and pretty much have always practiced it in my life.

 

And, in the first half, the numbers don't add up. In your translation there is only 90% accounted for. In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

[Taoist Texts]

And, in the first half, the numbers don't add up. In your translation there is only 90% accounted for. In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

 

thats true. to highlight my point that this chapt is about demographics i used percentages (fractions of 100), which the chinese did not have at that time. They used tenths instead. When a a ten had to be split three ways there would always be an odd one, corresponding to a statistical error. Any measurement or a count is always an approximation. The entire population would never be fully accounted for what with robbers, good for nothings, AWOLers and fantasy taoists, thats the remaining 10% for you so TTC is just being realistic here

 

 

In Henricks' translation he talks about thirteen companions of life and death.

 

who s that and where are they now?

[Marblehead]

thats true. to highlight my point that this chapt is about demographics i used percentages (fractions of 100), which the chinese did not have at that time. They used tenths instead. When a a ten had to be split three ways there would always be an odd one, corresponding to a statistical error. Any measurement or a count is always an approximation. The entire population would never be fully accounted for what with robbers, good for nothings, AWOLers and fantasy taoists, thats the remaining 10% for you so TTC is just being realistic here

Okay. You did good with that.

 

who s that and where are they now?

Don't ask me. I new here.

[Taoist Texts]

Don't ask me. I new here.

You and me both. These people just lazily substitute chinese words for english ones and call it translating.

 

thirteen messengers here they come

 

[Marblehead]

That is one motley crew. Not only would I not want to meet them in a dark alley, I just wouldn't want to meet them at all.

[dust]

Without having looked very attentively at this chapter, I certainly agree that the translations by Wu, Feng, Henricks and the like are basically nonsense. This is one of the few times I actually like Legge's translation!!

 

The numbers translate as "3 in 10", which would be the most precise way of talking percentages with as few characters as possible, I suppose.

 

 

However,

 

徒 means follower or believer, right? How does that fit with the working population theory?

 

 

1. 人之生，動之死地 2. 夫何故？以其無死地

 

-- 死地 occurs twice in the chapter, but you seem to brush past the mention of "death" in the first instance?

 

無死地 -- "there is no place of death". 無 never means "should", does it?

[Marblehead]

This is one of the few times I actually wish I could read Chinese, and especially the Characters of Lao Tzu's time.

[Taoist Texts]

However,

 

徒 means follower or believer, right? How does that fit with the working population theory?

 

sure, as a noun, but its core meaning is 'to go on foot' as per zdic

 

● 徒

tú ㄊㄨˊ

　1. 步行：～步。～涉。

　2. 空：～手。

　3. 白白地：～然。～劳无益。

　4. 只；仅仅：家～四壁。

　5. 从事学习的人：～弟。～工。学～。师～。

　6. 同一派系或信仰同一宗教的人：信～。教～。党～。

　7. 人（多指坏人）：匪～。暴～。赌～。叛～。

　8. 剥夺犯人自由的刑法：～刑。

so 1/3rd goes from birth onward etc , so TTC makes the same age analysis as the modern graph below

[Taoist Texts]

1. 人之生，動之死地

-- 死地 occurs twice in the chapter, but you seem to brush past the mention of "death" in the first instance?

 

Good point. Lets compare editions

 

 

《道德經》: 出生入死。生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。夫何故？以其生，生之厚。蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故？以其無死地。

《老子河上公章句·貴生》: 出生入死。生之徒十有三，死之徒死十有三，人之生，動之死地十有三。夫何故，以其求生之厚。蓋以聞善攝生者，路行不遇兕虎，入軍不披甲兵，兕無投其角，虎無所措爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故，以其無死地。

《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □生□□□□□□有□□□徒，十有三；而民生生，動皆之死地之十有三。夫何故也？以其生生也。蓋□□執生者，陵行不□矢虎，入軍不被甲兵；矢無所投其角，虎無所昔其蚤，兵無所容□□。□何故也？以其無死地焉。

《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: □生入死。生之□□□□□之徒，十又三；而民生生，僮皆之死地之十有三。□何故也？以其生生。蓋聞善執生者，陵行不辟兕虎，入軍不被兵；革兕無□□□□□□□□其蚤兵□□□□□□□□也？以其無□□□。

 

 

so MWD specifically has 而民生生 the commoners that multiply 動皆 all are active (動) in the lands of death 之死地之十有三 and constitute the last 1/3 rd.

[Taoist Texts]

無死地 -- "there is no place of death". 無 never means "should", does it?

 

of course not bu the whole bit reads to that effect

 

蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。

 

夫何故？why do these bad things above do not happen to them?

以because 其 they 無are not 死地 in deathlands。

 

sorry about that, i was to terse for my own good;)

[Taoist Texts]

This is one of the few times I actually wish I could read Chinese, and especially the Characters of Lao Tzu's time.

make like a vicar and enjoy it vicariously

[dust]

I find it interesting that both 徒 and 地 are used, and both originate with the 土 earth radical. As well as 生 of course being related to the earth.

 

徒 = 辵 + 土

地 = 土 + 阜 + 人 + 又 + 【尸体】 (earth, mound, person, hand, dead body)

 

地 originally meant earth as the place where people are buried -- carrying someone to their burial mound

 

I think this chapter is about people belonging to the earth -- coming from it and returning to it -- but I find no evidence that we're talking about population control

 

I'll post my own translation later and you can see how much you disagree

[dust]

Well. Here is the correct translation ( hehehe)

MWD text filled with the received where missing

 

 

出生入死 To be born is to die.

生之徒十有三 Those just born number a third,

死之徒十有三 Those dying number a third,

而民生生 And the people multiply,

動皆之死地之十有三 Moving the earth of their burial ground, and number a third; ¹

夫何故也 Why is this so?

以其生生也 As they multiply,

蓋聞善執生者 It is said that there are those who are good at clinging to life: ²

陵行不辟矢虎 Walking the land, they need not ward off arrows or tigers,

入軍不被甲兵 In battle, they wear no armour or weapons;

矢無所投其角 Arrows find no place to enter,

虎無所昔其蚤 Tigers find no place to scratch,

兵無所容其刃 Weapons find no place for the blade to strike;

夫何故也 Why is this so?

以其無死地焉 Do they have no burial ground? ³

 

 

In bold, every character with a root in earth (土 、生)

 

¹ i.e. working the land where they will end up dying/buried

 

² This seems important: 蓋聞 -- "it is said"

He's not talking about what he thinks, in the following lines, but about what some people say

 

³ And in the MWD, the final character magically turns it into a question

Not "They have no place for death", but "Do they have no place for death?" or "How is it that they have no burial place?"

It's rhetorical: everyone has a burial place. To think otherwise is silly.

Edited November 12, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

 

It's rhetorical: everyone has a burial place. To think otherwise is silly.

Or perhaps it is a hint at immortality?

[dust]

Hmmn perhaps. What kind of immortality?

 

Aside from not interpreting the middle part very idiomatically, my translation there relies on the MWD text for meaning.

 

The meaning I've inferred dies without the question particle. I would suggest that the later versions were edited to change the meaning to something more in line with emerging/evolving Taoist practices that were supposed to lead to immortality. Maybe.

[Michael Sternbach]

Those of you who have read certain posts of mine know that I like to compare the metaphysical systems of different cultures with each other. Because I observe that the ideas being expressed are not necessarily unique to them but reflect the collective unconscious common to all of humankind. So a synergistic approach can expand one's understanding of a concept. This chapter of the TTC in particular reminds me of the Tarot in several ways.

 

Robert Henricks

We come out into life and go back into death.
The companions of life are thirteen;
The companions of death are thirteen;
And yet people, because they regard life as LIFE,
In all of their actions move towards the thirteen that belong to the realm of death.

 

The Death card in Tarot is the thirteenth Trump. The one who comes out into life and goes back into death is The Fool. He's the first and the last in the series of the Trumps, so he is attributed with both the numbers 0 and 22. Cards that share the same checksum are seen as closely related with each other, like Death and The Fool, which can both be reduced to the number 4. The fourth trump is The Emperor which is also interesting in a Taoist context, however, I need to stay on topic.

 

The Fool is the spiritual seeker, the Tarot Bum undertaking the journey of individuation or internal alchemy. He represents our spontaneous nature that we start out and (hopefully) end up with. He is the Taoist sage so prevalent in Lao Tzu's and Chuang Tzu's writings. Ideally, he in fact attains (some kind of) immortality.

 

 

 

Source: imarcade.com

 

Now, why is this so?
It's because they regard life as LIFE.
You've no doubt heard of those who are good at holding on to life:
When walking through hills, they don't avoid rhinos and tigers;
When they go into battle, they don't put on armor or shields;
The rhino has no place to probe with its horn;
The tiger finds no place to put its claws.
And weapons find no place to hold their blades.
Now, why is this so?
Because there is no place for death in them.

 

As we can clearly see here, the tiger indeed cannot hurt The Fool. He is thought of as being protected by his very innocence.

[ChiDragon]

1. 出生入死。
2. 生之徒，十有三。
3. 死之徒，十有三。
4. 人之生，
5. 動之於死地，
6. 亦十有三。

1. From birth to death,
2. Those who lived longer are three out of ten,
3. Those who die sooner are three out of ten,
4. Some of the people could have lived longer,
5. But they choose to run toward death,
6. Also, three out of ten.