[TTC Study] Chapter 50 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

As we can clearly see here, the tiger indeed cannot hurt The Fool. He is thought of as being protected by his very innocence.

 

Interesting. The Fool is of course compared to hexagram 56, Sojourning, The Wanderer...

 

Very curious that he's depicted as being attacked, unharmed, by a tiger.

 

 

However, I have to maintain my agreement with TT, at least about the numbers.

 

It seems unlikely to me that anyone wrote the number 13 as 十有三。 The 有 ("have") is there for a reason, I think, and a number of translators have willfully ignored it to make it seem more mysterious than it is.

 

十有三 ten has three 3 in 10

[ChiDragon]

十有三, has two possible interpretations:
1. Three out of ten.
2. Ten plus three which is thirteen.

Its interpretation depends on its contextual meaning within a phrase or sentence.

Edited November 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Could you find an example in another text?

[Marblehead]

Hmmn perhaps. What kind of immortality?

 

Aside from not interpreting the middle part very idiomatically, my translation there relies on the MWD text for meaning.

 

The meaning I've inferred dies without the question particle. I would suggest that the later versions were edited to change the meaning to something more in line with emerging/evolving Taoist practices that were supposed to lead to immortality. Maybe.

There are some who want that section of the chapter to be speaking of becoming an immortal. Many Alchemists would read it that way. I do not, of course.

[ChiDragon]

dustybeijing......
Here is a good example for one to express one's age from Confucius:
十有五 for the age of 15.
http://baike.baidu.com/view/2329967.htm

Edited November 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Here is a good example for one to express one's age form Confucius:

十有五 for the age of 15.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/2329967.htm

 

Damn you... I was wroooonggggg

 

 

Well, in that case, perhaps it contains both meanings...? As much of the Laozi seems to do

 

 

A Chinese site explains the chapter thusly:

 

 

人始出于世而生，最终入于地而死。属于长寿的人有十分之三；属于短命而亡的人有十分之三；人本来可以活得长久些，却自己走向死亡之路，也占十分之三。为什么会这样呢？因为奉养太过度了。据说，善于养护自己生命的人，在陆地上行走，不会遇到凶恶的犀牛和猛虎，在战争中也受不到武器的伤害。犀牛于其身无处投 角，老虎对其身无处伸爪，武器对其身无处刺击锋刃。为什么会这样呢？因为他没有进入死亡的领域。

 

People begin by being born, end by dying. Those who live long number 3 in 10; those who die early number 3 in 10; those who would have lived a long life walk the road of death, and also number 3 in 10. Why is this so? Because they cherish life too much. It's said those who are good at looking after themselves... (.... etc about not getting hurt...) ... Why is this so? Because they haven't entered the realm of death.

 

Well, it makes sense up until the last part. What is the realm of death? And why haven't they entered it? Nonsense!

[Marblehead]

And what about the other 10% of the people?

[dust]

My error. They've put it (in the modern Chinese) as 十分之三, which literally translates to "ten divided by 3" or "3 into 10"

(so, exactly a third)

 

I suppose that using small numbers like this is the easiest way of talking percentages with as few characters as possible. It's fairly common even now. A modern example:

 

八成 is a simplified way of saying 十分之八 ”10 divided by 8“ (and is used to mean "the most part" or "quite likely")

 

 

So... I'd translate as "a third" in each line... which makes a whole! There is no other tenth.

[ChiDragon]

My error. They've put it (in the modern Chinese) as 十分之三, which literally translates to "ten divided by 3" or "3 into 10"

(so, exactly a third)

 

Correction......

In the modern Chinese, 十分之三 which is 3 out of 10 or 3/10.

For instance, a pie was divided into ten parts, and you ate 3 parts which is 3 out of 10.

 

In your case, "ten divided by 3" is 10/3 but not 3/10.

 

"八成 is a simplified way of saying 十分之八"

 

八成 means 8 out of 10 which is 80%.

七成: 70%

六成: 60%

五成: 50%

四成 40%.....

Edited November 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

And what about the other 10% of the people?

 

It is 3 out of every group of 10 but not the same group of 10.........

Edited November 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Correction......

In the modern Chinese, 十分之三 which is 3 out of 10 or 3/10.

For instance, a pie was divided into ten parts, and you ate 3 parts which is 3 out of 10.

 

In your case, "ten divided by 3" is 10/3 but not 3/10.

 

You do love to "correct" people... even when they've said the same thing as you!

 

Ten divided by three is 3/10 (10/3 means 3 divided by 10)

 

 

"八成 is a simplified way of saying 十分之八"

 

八成 means 8 out of 10 which is 80%.

 

Again.. almost exactly what I said!

A simplified way of saying 十分之八 which is 8/10 which is 80%!!

 

 

10 is the maximum here. There 3 people out of 10 which 3/10 X 100% = 30%

 

3 out of ten is 30% of 10.

30 out of 100 is 30% of 100.

 

The Chinese use 10 for the total instead of 100.

 

There is no 10% of the people missing. It was all accounted for.

 

Yes, but 30 x 3 = 90

3 x 3 = 9

 

So you can see why MH would wonder about the remaining 10 or 1

 

But as I've already pointed out, this way of writing numbers is a simplified way of doing things, and isn't intended to be 100% mathematically accurate. If it was mathematically/statistically accurate, I doubt it'd be as simple as 3 groups of 33%...

[ChiDragon]

(10/3 means 3 divided by 10)

 

No, it is ten divided by 3.

[dust]

OK. It's late and I'm tired..

 

分之 is used for fractions and percentages, right?

 

十分之三 translates to 3 out of 10. Not 10 divided by 3. You are correct. Fine.

 

However, 3 out of 10 three times is only 9 out of 10. So there is one left over.

 

In relation to this chapter, we're talking thirds:

 

10

— = 3.333333 = one third. This is what Laozi was saying, I believe.

3

 

 

Ten divided by three, 3 into 10, 30%, 33%, one third, 3/10, 10/3, 1/3, 3/1... it doesn't really matter.

 

The real point is, you can't help correcting people, even when it's entirely unnecessary... it's quite tedious...

[Marblehead]

 

It is 3 out of every group of 10 but not the same group of 10.........

You are working with imaginary numbers, Right?

[Marblehead]

However, 3 out of 10 three times is only 9 out of 10. So there is one left over.

The one left over are the immortals referred to in the last line. They didn't need be spoken of.

[Diacarwyn]

I'm sorry to interrupt, is it wrong to way to heavily on life? Thank You

[Marblehead]

I'm sorry to interrupt, is it wrong to way to heavily on life? Thank You

I just spoke to that on the one other forum I am a member of.

 

The discussion was concerning a couple members who recently lost someone close to them (a son in both cases).

 

Death follows birth. That's the Way of life. It is what we do between the two that matter.

 

And I think that we should not take life all that seriously. Yes, birth is serious; death is serious. Enough of this serious stuff. One should always allot a given amount of (life) time to just enjoy it.

 

And events in our life are mostly random for the vast majority of us. Some thing happen in our favor and other things really screw us up. We need to learn how to say "Oh well."

[Diacarwyn]

I'm sorry about the intrusion, who are the thirteen companions of life and the same as in death? Can you answer and or refer me to the teachings? ~Thank You Warmest Reflections~

[Marblehead]

Please, please don't apologize for joining a conversation. This board and forum are designed for people to discuss their thoughts with others.

 

Yes, the thirteen companions, I am almost certain, are spoken to somewhere in the Chuang Tzu. Give me a little time and I'll do my best to get you some info.

[dust]

Yes. Why so sorry?

 

Please...ask and say whatever you want. I know I do!

[Diacarwyn]

The topic, to way heavily on life, really just means, not to burden yourself with any matter, concern or affair that contradicts happiness.

[Marblehead]

I found it. It's not in The Chuang Tzu.

 

Where I remembered it from are the notes in Red Pines' translation of the TTC.

 

His note reads:

 

In lines three, four, and six the phrase shih-yu-san has long puzzled commentators. Han Fei says it means "three and ten" or "thirteen" and refers to the four limbs and the nine orifices of the body, which can be guarded to preserve life or indulgd to end it.

[dust]

I'm sorry about the intrusion, who are the thirteen companions of life and the same as in death? Can you answer and or refer me to the teachings? ~Thank You Warmest Reflections~

 

Look back in this conversation and you'll see that there is disagreement. Some of us agree that it is in no way is referring to thirteen anythings.

 

In other words, the translators who mention these "thirteen companions" are basically making things up because they don't understand / cannot find a good way to translate the text.

 

The number actually (imo) means 3 in 10.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/19370-ttc-study-chapter-50-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=591655

I believe TT started the discussion about this here on page 3.

[Diacarwyn]

Now I understand the thirteen companions, four limbs and 9 orifices: eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, anus and urethra ?

Edited November 22, 2014 by Philip Fry

[Diacarwyn]

I've been browsing topics. I'm going to chapter #1 Tao Te Ching. Unless you may have a stronger starting point.