Taking Responsibility

[Marblehead]

I hope you don't mind that I put this in BOLD. So many do not understand this simple thing.

 

I don't mind at all. You done good.

[Ya Mu]

Your allusion to seeing everything as roses isn't quite accurate. That would truly be stupid. I'm talking about something different. I'm talking about the love for everyone and everything we get down to when we've done the inner cultivation, that's all. What's your qigong good for? Being safe in the back yard? If it doesn't extend to Real Life, then it's pointless.

 

Being willing to go to a bad part of town, in this instance, wouldn't be either stupid or brave. It would be knowing that it doesn't really matter when we die; we are a current of consciousness that streams in-body or out. When we truly lose the fear of death (I wish I could say 100%, but I'm not there yet) and when we truly find out Who We Really Are. We Are the Manifester; somehow collectively, somehow connected. When we are in Awareness consciously, the world unfolds at our feet, regardless of where we are. You will discover this after the inner work has been done.

Since this is about the 4th or 5th time you have said this in your posts directed at me I will address it. For some distorted reason you seem to think that the "12 steps" is true Taoist "inner work" and everything else is not. Don't really know how you came up with that but the truth is that most of the Chinese INTERNAL arts are, as their BASIC and FIRST step, true "inner work". You may try practicing them for a while and see if your perspective doesn't change. Simply reading mis-translations and thinking you know what they mean and combining this with new age whatever also has nothing to do with practicing Taoism. There are several true Taoist "inner work" practices, these are not intellectual based but practical based.

Marblehead says it so well here, and I put a part of this in bold:

 

Dear Heart, Your Taoism has become polluted with Buddhist (and whatever else) idealism. No, the real world is the external, the Manifest. What you are talking about is the Mystery - the state of 'wu'.

 

... Taoism is an excellent guide to living life in the 'real world' and if one does not use it for this purpose then one is missing the most important aspect of Taoism.

 

... Awareness is essential.

It is amazing to me the many myths that are kept alive through the new age teachings.

I agree with you about there is no reason to fear death and have said this countless times on this forum and in my book. My perspective on this comes from actually dying, not something I read. But to think that we shouldn't have awareness in EVERYTHING that we do IS "thinking everything is roses". If what you say is true then why the heck BOTHER coming here to Earth in the first place? May as well not.

[zerostao]

Let's face it. Not everyone is a Taoist Sage or a Buddha or a true Christian and is able to just let things come and go without being effected by them. We all have our emotions (feelings) and sometimes we are easily hurt

 

If we intend to cause others any form of pain then I will state freely that this is not the Way of Tao

 

It was relatively recently that I came to recognize the value in my life of cultivating love and compassion.

Not from a religious sense, not for attainment, but for my own health.

 

(I just couldn't say "follow"). A sage is a rare beast

 

Yes, we should enjoy ourselves here. It is a unique opportunity. If folks really understood how great a privilege it is to be here now...things would be different.

 

You have a great idea about how a sage would live. It's written all over the TTC

 

The hard thing is walking like we talk

 

Hard for me to see where they would find much joy in living. But then it has been reported that many of those peaple actually consider themselves happy.

 

Yes, we all have the capacity to be a sage

 

Tao's reality is that free will has induced some to go the opposite of harmony with Tao

 

We definitely have a choice

 

Yes, I know. I just wanted to take the scenic route to get there

 

Why bother to go to the trouble of having a philosophy (and a damned good one at that) if we don't live it?

 

And I totally agree that awareness of our surroundings is so very important. Sometimes we can be totally spaced out, venturing into the Mystery, and have not a single worry in our life. Othertimes, especially when we are in the unknown, we need be very vigil.

 

Awareness consciously, the world unfolds at our feet, regardless of where we are.

 

Both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were 'realists'

 

There are several true Taoist "inner work" practices, these are not intellectual based but practical based.

 

It is amazing

 

edit> just working on my mirror symmetry

[Informer]

The thread topic makes me think of those with absolutely no-self, who would be responsible for anything without having one to be responsible.

 

Would they say there is responsibility, it's just not your responsibility?

 

Did you steal that candy bar? No officer, the candy bar was stolen, but I didn't steal it, lol . . .

 

Same could go for even more atrocious acts.

 

I wonder if one could pass a lie detector using that? I think it would be a great experiment.

[Marblehead]

edit> just working on my mirror symmetry

 

Hehehe. Well, you go ahead on. I had to read this thing twice to see what you were actually doing. (So much of it sounded so familiar. Hehehe.)

[Marblehead]

The thread topic makes me think of those with absolutely no-self, who would be responsible for anything without having one to be responsible.

 

Would they say there is responsibility, it's just not your responsibility?

 

Did you steal that candy bar? No officer, the candy bar was stolen, but I didn't steal it, lol . . .

 

Same could go for even more atrocious acts.

 

I wonder if one could pass a lie detector using that? I think it would be a great experiment.

 

 

You just jerked my memory strings.

 

I am retired Army and live in a retired Navy town. I sometimes joke that the difference between a retired Navy E-6 and an E-7 is that the E-7 accepted responsibility but the E-6 always blamed the E-7 through E-9.

 

(E-6 equals Enlisted person promotion level 6.)

 

(I hope there are no retired Navy E-6's around else I'm in trouble and will have to apologize.)

[manitou]

Actually, I was a Coast Guard E4 (reserves) but I'm not thinking that was any big deal. Being an E6 is really something. And active in the Navy as well. Wow.

 

I'm not referring to the 12 steps, Michael. That's just the dynamic that got the inner journey going. When we get down to the bottom of self we realize What we truly are.

[Ya Mu]

never mind

[manitou]

This is frustrating. apparently I have a lot of work to do. When I grow up and learn that everything is Two I'll pick up this thread again.

[Informer]

Your allusion to seeing everything as roses isn't quite accurate. That would truly be stupid. I'm talking about something different. I'm talking about the love for everyone and everything we get down to when we've done the inner cultivation, that's all. What's your qigong good for? Being safe in the back yard? If it doesn't extend to Real Life, then it's pointless.

 

Being willing to go to a bad part of town, in this instance, wouldn't be either stupid or brave. It would be knowing that it doesn't really matter when we die; we are a current of consciousness that streams in-body or out. When we truly lose the fear of death (I wish I could say 100%, but I'm not there yet) and when we truly find out Who We Really Are. We Are the Manifester; somehow collectively, somehow connected. When we are in Awareness consciously, the world unfolds at our feet, regardless of where we are. You will discover this after the inner work has been done.

 

This is true, without the threat of death there is very little to fear.

[Ya Mu]

This is true, without the threat of death there is very little to fear.

We were not attempting to get across that death is anything to fear but more of a practical Taoist viewpoint. Death is a great friend. In other words if one is offered a choice of walking into a field of bullets where the situation cannot be changed or walking into a hospital and helping someone, the obvious choice is the hospital. Because if the person walked into the field of bullets they would probably end up dead and then wouldn't be able to help the person in the hospital. So not a fear of death but a practical way of flowing. The only time one would walk into a situation dodging bullets is if they were practicing "Listening" and understood from this that they could make a difference. THIS is true walking in the wu wei. If the person is actually practicing "Listening", walking in the Wu Wei, and knows they cannot make a difference in the situation it would, IMO, be entirely stupid. Simple practical Taoist application.

[Informer]

We were not attempting to get across that death is anything to fear but more of a practical Taoist viewpoint. Death is a great friend. In other words if one is offered a choice of walking into a field of bullets where the situation cannot be changed or walking into a hospital and helping someone, the obvious choice is the hospital. Because if the person walked into the field of bullets they would probably end up dead and then wouldn't be able to help the person in the hospital. So not a fear of death but a practical way of flowing. The only time one would walk into a situation dodging bullets is if they were practicing "Listening" and understood from this that they could make a difference. THIS is true walking in the wu wei. If the person is actually practicing "Listening", walking in the Wu Wei, and knows they cannot make a difference in the situation it would, IMO, be entirely stupid. Simple practical Taoist application.

 

Wouldn't that be considered rationale? Or even logic rather than fear?

 

(Hypothetically) If at the same time, what if being in the line of fire granted you a chance to save thousands of more people than you would at the hospital, even if your own life would be shortened. Then which would you choose?

 

Without courage, you won't be able to sieze the moment. The Fear of death would prevent the most logical/meaningful course of action in this case.

[Marblehead]

This is frustrating. apparently I have a lot of work to do. When I grow up and learn that everything is Two I'll pick up this thread again.

 

That would be just as incorrect as saying that everything is one.

 

Everything is what it is. Individual manifestations of potential.

 

Remember the "ten thousand things".

[Marblehead]

Nice discussion Ya Mu and Informer.

 

I don't want to interupt it but I do wish to point this out that Ya Mu mentioned as I believe it is important:

 

If the person is actually practicing "Listening", walking in the Wu Wei, and knows they cannot make a difference in the situation it would, IMO, be entirely stupid. Simple practical Taoist application.

[Ya Mu]

Wouldn't that be considered rationale? Or even logic rather than fear?

 

(Hypothetically) If at the same time, what if being in the line of fire granted you a chance to save thousands of more people than you would at the hospital, even if your own life would be shortened. Then which would you choose?

 

Without courage, you won't be able to sieze the moment. The Fear of death would prevent the most logical/meaningful course of action in this case.

You misunderstand what I am saying.

Marblehead quoted the aspect you are not understanding:

 

...

If the person is actually practicing "Listening", walking in the Wu Wei, and knows they cannot make a difference in the situation it would, IMO, be entirely stupid. Simple practical Taoist application.

If one is actually practicing the "Listening" and walking in the Wu Wei then the proper choice is made in each particular circumstance. Has nothing to do with fear.

[rene]

If one is actually practicing the "Listening" and walking in the Wu Wei then the proper choice is made in each particular circumstance. Has nothing to do with fear.

 

My way is to not practice Listening or WuWeiWalking or thinking about what a 'proper choice' might be. When something occurs I respond naturally and whatever happens is fine. But I'm not Taoist, though, and I like that we each have our own way.

 

warm regards

[Ya Mu]

My way is to not practice Listening or WuWeiWalking or thinking about what a 'proper choice' might be. When something occurs I respond naturally and whatever happens is fine. But I'm not Taoist, though, and I like that we each have our own way.

 

warm regards

Yes, I am referring to specific Taoist internal art; in common is we don't do any thinking either. A "natural" response is exactly what I am referring to, only the "Listening" and "walking in the Wu Wei" aspect is synchronous with ebb and flow. When one practices this all sort of synchronicity occurs, as in being where we are needed at any specific "time", and as it is in harmony, it will be the path of least resistance, the "correct" path, as in we will be driving along and all of sudden change lanes - had we remained a truck would have run directly into us, etc. This is an advanced art that I would say the majority have no desire to practice, as it requires time & effort, but is a prime aspect of actual practicing Taoists.

[rene]

Yes, I am referring to specific Taoist internal art; in common is we don't do any thinking either. A "natural" response is exactly what I am referring to, only the "Listening" and "walking in the Wu Wei" aspect is synchronous with ebb and flow. When one practices this all sort of synchronicity occurs, as in being where we are needed at any specific "time", and as it is in harmony, it will be the path of least resistance, the "correct" path, as in we will be driving along and all of sudden change lanes - had we remained a truck would have run directly into us, etc. This is an advanced art that I would say the majority have no desire to practice, as it requires time & effort, but is a prime aspect of actual practicing Taoists.

Ya Mu, greetings

 

Yes, we are speaking of the same thing. My take is that the ebb and flow of specific situations, and of life in general, may be palpable through the nei xin - spontaneously informing the 'natural responses'.

 

Nice that you help others with this. (-:

 

warm regards,

rene

[Marblehead]

Has nothing to do with fear.

 

Has nothing to do with thinking either.

 

Darn! Reading further I see both you and Rene mention that. Well, I'm going to leave this post anyhow. Hehehe.

[Stigweard]

It happened in the "Manifesting" thread that I made the post:

 

Yes, we should take responsibility for our own actions (and manifestations) but we cannot and should not even try to take responsibility for what anyone else manifests.

 

I will add though that how our actions and manifestations effect others is, in part, our responsibility too. This gets a little deep and I don't even know if I could speak well to it.

 

SereneBlue responded with:

 

This is beautiful Marble. I agree with you.

 

I, for one, would be interested in hearing you expand upon the second paragraph even if you couldn't speak well to it.

 

 

What caused this thought from me was thinking about those who are abused, especially children and women, and they acquire a guilty complex from thinking that it was something they had done wrong that caused the abuse. Kate mentioned this earlier in the thread.

 

Straight out I will say that it is the abuser's fault that there is abuse. The abuser has a psychological problem and they will use others for the purpose of releasing their inner conflicts.

 

With this in mind I made the statement, "I will add though ..."

 

In the case of an abuser, the abuser must take full responsibility for their actions.

 

However, taking responsibility for our actions and manifestations includes how these actions effect others as well. And we share the responsibility for the effect our actions have had.

 

Let's face it. Not everyone is a Taoist Sage or a Buddha or a true Christian and is able to just let things come and go without being effected by them. We all have our emotions (feelings) and sometimes we are easily hurt.

 

What I am pointing at involves that discussion recently regarding "intention vs. action". If we intend to cause others any form of pain then I will state freely that this is not the Way of Tao. However, if we caused someone pain without intention then we were simply operating in a faulty mode.

 

I suppose that Manitou could come in now and say something like, "If we held love firmly at our center would would always consider possible consequences of our action or words before we did anything." And this is a valid way of looking at it. However, in the real world we don't always have the time to do this analysis. We will, on occasion, error and unnecessarily cause others pain. We must take responsibility for this result, at least in part, because we caused the pain.

 

I welcome any and all to join in and help me explain what I am pointing at.

Nice topic Mr Marbles

 

Hua Ching Ni has an interesting take on Chapter 53 of Laozi. Stanza 4 and 5 goes something like this (from memory so maybe not exact):

 

You know the future of a person by his virtue,

You know the future of a family by its virtue,

You know the future of a community by its virtue,

You know the future of a nation by its virtue.

 

By knowing the virtue of people and the world, you know the future.

 

This has some interesting implications which touches on the one aspect of the Daoist world-view. Specifically that groups of people have their own collective cause and effect, meaning that families, communities and nations have their own group "karma" that can impact upon individuals.

 

This means that the calamities or good fortune of an individual may be a result of the "karma" of the group in which they live.

 

This throws a whole new and interesting dynamic into the idea of "taking responsibility" because, if this view has any traction, then your actions have an impact on the cause and effects of more than just your own experience.

 

[Informer]

You misunderstand what I am saying.

Marblehead quoted the aspect you are not understanding:

 

 

If one is actually practicing the "Listening" and walking in the Wu Wei then the proper choice is made in each particular circumstance. Has nothing to do with fear.

 

Thanks for explaining, you are correct, I misunderstood.

[Marblehead]

Nice topic Mr Marbles

 

You know the future of a person by his virtue,

You know the future of a family by its virtue,

You know the future of a community by its virtue,

You know the future of a nation by its virtue.

 

By knowing the virtue of people and the world, you know the future.

 

This has some interesting implications which touches on the one aspect of the Daoist world-view. Specifically that groups of people have their own collective cause and effect, meaning that families, communities and nations have their own group "karma" that can impact upon individuals.

 

This means that the calamities or good fortune of an individual may be a result of the "karma" of the group in which they live.

 

This throws a whole new and interesting dynamic into the idea of "taking responsibility" because, if this view has any traction, then your actions have an impact on the cause and effects of more than just your own experience.

 

 

Thanks.

 

Interesting translation. I prefer to not discuss a chapter before it has been posted in the TTC subforum but in this case I will speak to the portions you presented.

 

There are many different ways of translating that section. And I suppose that the above can be viewed as you have done. Of course, I don't hold to the concept of karma but still cause and effect work here just as well.

 

Okay, I don't believe in predicting the future but I can link the passage with my understanding that we should understand the processes of nature (and all things within). If we understand the processes, are aware of what has happened and what is currently happening we can indeed predict future events with fairly good accuracy.

 

This applies to our own personal life as will. We can, within limits, predict our own future and therein is even more reason why we must take responsibility for our manifestations and action.

 

Thanks for adding that aspect of the subject at hand.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for explaining, you are correct, I misunderstood.

 

The term "Listening" was a new one for me when I first read it and it took a little time for me to put it into context. I normally just use "Awareness" and leave it at that.

[rene]

...I don't hold to the concept of karma...

It might be the concept of karma applies as long as one's concept of De is other than Laozi's.

[Marblehead]

It might be the concept of karma applies as long as one's concept of De is other than Laozi's.

 

Yeah, that would be a horse of a different color.

 

I have talked about this with some and in the end their understanding of karma was exactly the same as my understanding of 'cause and effect'. This is because nothing paranormal was added to their belief in karma.

 

And true, if we use the term "De" (Virtue - the Way of Tao) in any manner other than as the processes of the universe then we are straying from Lao Tzu's concepts and will likely be treading into the paranormal.