Taking Responsibility

[zerostao]

That would be just as incorrect as saying that everything is one.

 

Everything is what it is. Individual manifestations of potential.

 

Remember the "ten thousand things".

Dear Heart, Your Taoism has become polluted with Buddhist (and whatever else) idealism. No, the real world is the external, the Manifest. What you are talking about is the Mystery - the state of 'wu'.

 

i do agree totally about your comment about the mystery.

as far as saying that " everything is one" is Buddhist (and whatever else) polluted

idealism.... - not so fast-

and here i am not suggesting that i know manitou's experiences or her reflections on those.

i do notice that from all cultures and traditions there does seem to exist a common thread ,

perhaps mystically only, this common thread being "all is one" or a consciousness of the Oneness of everything.

all creatures existence is experienced as a Unity (for those interested in knowing more about this, visit my thread - Unity)

i think we have gone over many times here on TTB about the quality of ineffability.

that it defies expression in terms that are fully intelligible to one who has not known some analogous experience.

it resembles more a state of feeling than of a state of intellect.

it is not possible to make a state of feeling clear to one who has not experienced it.

 

the creation of the phenomenal universe is the coming out of Tao,

the primal meaning and undivided unity behind everything.

out of Tao sprang the principles of phenomenal reality. Yin and Yang.

which are evident (at least to me and manitou) thru-out the universe

(as it appears to us) there is no light except it is the opposite of darkness..

etc...yin and yang have their origin in the undivided unity. they are

active (only) in the realm of phenomena.

 

Tao produced unity (one);

unity produced duality (two);

duality produced trinity (three);

trinity produced everything (10,000 things)

 

Tao, without a name , is the beginning of heaven and earth. (non-being)

with a name, it is the mother of all things. (being)

these two things , the spiritual and the material, altho we call them

different things, in their origin they are one in the same.

this sameness is the mystery, "the mystery of mysteries"

it is the gate of all wonders.

(closest to that gate is unity(one))

[Marblehead]

Hi Zerostao,

 

What I am about to say is not for the purpose of defending my understanding or negating yours or Manitou's.

 

It will be a statement similar to those I make whenever I think the Mystery (Wu) and the Manifest (Yo) have been confused.

 

as far as saying that " everything is one" is Buddhist (and whatever else) polluted

idealism.... - not so fast-

and here i am not suggesting that i know manitou's experiences or her reflections on those.

i do notice that from all cultures and traditions there does seem to exist a common thread ,

perhaps mystically only, this common thread being "all is one" or a consciousness of the Oneness of everything.

 

All is not one. Yes, all is of the same source, whatever that is. I am not Hitler and Hitler was never me. Therefore I conclude that we are not all one. If we were all one there would never be any disagreement whatever because we would all think alike.

 

Mystery is undefinable. That is why it is called "Mystery". Mystery is idealism. Idealism, IMO, is undefinable because not all will agree with any one person's suggestion of what it is and what it should be so for all practical purposes ideaslism is unattainable.

 

However, Manifest if physically real. A tree will always be a tree from the first moment of life until the last moment of its life. Then the remains will become something else. Each and every one of us are what we are, from the moment of birth until our last breath; then our remains will become something else.

 

Parts of these something elses can be traced after death but not all of these something elses. What happens after death? All I can speak to is what is observable. Beyond that all is guess-work.

 

I cannot accept that there is a common thread uniting the peoples of the world. From the oldest recordings of the history of man there are records of all different groups of peoples killing each other. It continues today. I see no indications that this is going to change any time soon.

 

This is reality, my Friend.

 

Now, you want to talk about idealism? We can talk about that. But let us not confuse the two. Manifest is reality because it has already manifested. Mystery is still a mystery because it has not yet manifested.

 

BTW We are all stardust. Astro-scientists love saying that now-a-days.

 

So yes,it is nice talking about idealism. It is nice thinking that we all have a common goal in life. But it's not true, you know. We all have different goals in life. That is because we all are individuals. We all have our individual needs and desires. Sometimes we can and do work together for a common goal, other times we seek out our own individual ends.

 

But I am still an optimist. I still believe that this world can be a much better place on which to live and I also believe that we can do a much better job of sharing the resources of this planet so that everyone at least has their besic needs satisfied.

 

However, I am still a Realistic-Nietzschian-Taoist. And I will travel the Way of Tao as closely as I possibly can.

 

But I'm not going to give you all my money just because you tell me that we all are one therefore what is mine is yours too. Sorry Buddy, that's just the way it is.

[zerostao]

Marblehead,

 

i certainly was not trying to defend or negate positions either.

(just a rainy day here and i cannot go out into the woods to gather ginseng,

so why not engage Mh in conversation? )

 

Mystery is undefinable. That is why it is called "Mystery".

i agree with this.

 

Mystery is idealism

i disagree here. i still think it is undefinable.

 

I cannot accept that there is a common thread uniting the peoples of the world. From the oldest recordings of the history of man there are records of all different groups of peoples killing each other. It continues today. I see no indications that this is going to change any time soon.

i agree, (i didnt say peoples of the world were uniting)

 

BTW We are all stardust. Astro-scientists love saying that now-a-days

we are all made of stardust, sagan said so!

 

But I am still an optimist

me either!! er yeah i am an optimist

 

However, I am still a Realistic-Nietzschian-Taoist

for sure. i never imagined you in the schopenhaurer school of thought.

 

But I'm not going to give you all my money just because you tell me that we all are one therefore what is mine is yours too. Sorry Buddy, that's just the way it is.

i am in no way endorsing or suggesting any form of communism to take place.

 

i do feel there does exist The One and there also exists an underlying Unity.

i will continue those thoughts on the Unity thread.

(maybe i was here just to plug my thread

[rene]

 

...

 

All is not one. ...

 

"All is not one."

 

No. Rather: All is not ONLY one. All is both one and separate at the same time.

 

"Either/or thinking" is very difficult to overcome.

 

Until the understanding and realization comes that dual and non-dual both are present in every moment, unboundaried with each other, the differences between these simultaneous aspects will always feed this particular and perpetual discussion.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

Mystery is idealism

i disagree here. i still think it is undefinable.

 

Yeah, That was a mis-statement. Good that you disagreed with it.

 

i do feel there does exist The One and there also exists an underlying Unity.

i will continue those thoughts on the Unity thread.

(maybe i was here just to plug my thread

 

I guess now I am going to have to look closer at your thread. Until now I have been just scanning it.

 

Nice responses though. I do enjoy trying to express myself in a logical manner and the best indicator of how I am doing is by the responses to what I say.

[Marblehead]

"All is not one."

 

No. Rather: All is not ONLY one. All is both one and separate at the same time.

 

"Either/or thinking" is very difficult to overcome.

 

Until the understanding and realization comes that dual and non-dual both are present in every moment, unboundaried with each other, the differences between these simultaneous aspects will always feed this particular and perpetual discussion.

 

warm regards

 

Ha! You are too late to join the discussion. Hehehe. Just joking, of course.

 

Yes, you and I have had that "duality" discussion before.

 

But there really is a lot of "either/or" in everyday life. Either I remain seated or I get up and get another cup of coffee. If I don't want another cup of coffee I can remain seated but if I want another cup then I will have to get up and get one. There are no other options. I have no "Hey, You." living here with me.

 

Okay, I will state this at the chance of being misunderstood. I believe that it is thinking that causes dualities to exist. Not only in man but in other animals as well.

 

A rose bush is a rose bush. We look at the flower and say "Good flower" but we prick our finger on one of its thorns and we say "Bad thorn". There are no dualities in a rose bush. We create the dualities.

 

Anyhow, neat how this thread moved from talking about our taking responsibility for our manifestations and action to a discussion of unity, oneness and dualities.

[rene]

Okay. One at a time. (couldn't resist, heh) And I'll use your lingo.

 

Ha! You are too late to join the discussion. Hehehe. Just joking, of course.

 

Yes, you and I have had that "duality" discussion before.

 

But there really is a lot of "either/or" in everyday life. Either I remain seated or I get up and get another cup of coffee.

 

Yes, in the Manifest there are lots of 'either/or'. You can either get your own coffee, or not.

 

But it's never 'either/or' between Mystery and Manifest; they co-exist simultaneously and unboundaried. (How else would the reverting nature of tao occur??) That cup of coffee you may or may not be drinking is a manifest thing and it still has all the aspects of Mystery in it; all of tao can be found within it; the nature of the universe is reflected in the movement and motions of each iota of that swill in that mug. Especially the way you make coffee.

 

Okay, I will state this at the chance of being misunderstood. I believe that it is thinking that causes dualities to exist. ... We look at the flower and say "Good flower" but we prick our finger on one of its thorns and we say "Bad thorn". There are no dualities in a rose bush. We create the dualities.

Agree. Especially in peoples' search for tao. Dualities are created in an effort to find what isn't lost in the first place.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

 

Yes, in the Manifest there are lots of 'either/or'. You can either get your own coffee, or not.

 

But it's never 'either/or' between Mystery and Manifest; they co-exist simultaneously and unboundaried. (How else would the reverting nature of tao occur??) That cup of coffee you may or may not be drinking is a manifest thing and it still has all the aspects of Mystery in it; all of tao can be found within it; the nature of the universe is reflected in the movement and motions of each iota of that swill in that mug. Especially the way you make coffee.

 

 

That is excellent!!!

[Birch]

" I believe that it is thinking that causes dualities to exist. "

 

Doesn't it depend on the type of thinking Mr MH? I know that by saying that I've introduced another dualism, sorry :-) But I think (and I guess I've experienced) that one can (re)train oneself to think in terms of non-duality. But it's still thinking. One can (retrain) oneself to listen to one's guts and heart, is that another kind of thinking? Something else? One can train to (re)integrate one's mind, heart and guts. Yet another? One can (re) train oneself to listen to other people. Yet another?

[rene]

Non-duality is still only half of the Whole. A fully integrated Self and Not-Self might be more natural.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

" I believe that it is thinking that causes dualities to exist. "

 

Doesn't it depend on the type of thinking Mr MH? I know that by saying that I've introduced another dualism, sorry :-) But I think (and I guess I've experienced) that one can (re)train oneself to think in terms of non-duality. But it's still thinking. One can (retrain) oneself to listen to one's guts and heart, is that another kind of thinking? Something else? One can train to (re)integrate one's mind, heart and guts. Yet another? One can (re) train oneself to listen to other people. Yet another?

 

You are right Kate, IMO. I agree that thinking does not necessarily bring about dualistic thinking.

 

I have discussed dualistic thinking many times before and I am still with the understanding that our brain works in a manner that brings about dualities (in our mind). Because of the vast amount of data our brain needs to process it tends toward categorizing and compartmentalizing our experiences. (That sounds clumsy.)

 

However, I will suggest that whenever we compare like items we will be practicing dualistic thinking. Comparing brings about all the opposites: Good/bad, beautiful/ugly, sweet/sour, etc.

 

But then, all dualities are not bad. For example, a stove. Is it hot or cold? We best not touch it if it is hot.

 

The best we can do I suppose is to view things for what they are and not compare. Then perhaps we can place a value judgement on them as to their usefulness to us. Useful/not-useful (to me). That way a thing that I have determined to be useless to me may still be useful to someone else. No value judgement except for its relationship with me.

 

And yes, I agree that we can train our brain to be less dualistic in its thinking. I think I have accomplished this to a small degree.

 

Hehehe. This could be called taking responsibility for our thinking (manifestations). (Yes, our thoughts are real too.)

[Marblehead]

Non-duality is still only half of the Whole. A fully integrated Self and Not-Self might be more natural.

 

warm regards

 

Thanks Rene. But you leave my Self alone, okay? Hehehe. I don't have a non-Self as far as I know.

[rene]

Thanks Rene. But you leave my Self alone, okay? Hehehe. I don't have a non-Self as far as I know.

LOL. Still using your lingo, your 'non-Self' - would be the Wu counterpart of your manifest Self. As there is nothing that does not have both aspects, my guess is that includes you. My post was more a blink towards those paths that teach the elimination of half of what is Natural.

 

warm regards

[Aaron]

This thread made me think of my own life experience. The mention of Karma in particular. I think it's absurd to believe that a child (or adult) deserves what happens to them because of something they've done in a previous life. Karma is the scapegoat of Eastern Religion. Just like Western Religion uses sin to keep people in line.

 

My own opinion is that karma and sin are useful tools to moderate people's behavior and to justify the bad things that happen in our lives. You deserve to be hurt because you did something bad in a previous life or you have a sinful nature. I've never understood people's inability to understand that there really is no good or bad or right or wrong, that in the end it comes down to action and inaction and our own perception of such.

 

I think when we begin to understand this, then we will have no problem taking responsibility for our own actions.

 

Aaron

Edited July 20, 2011 by Twinner

[Otis]

Nice conversation, everyone.

 

Marblehead, I want to offer a little challenge. When you say that something is or is not reality, aren't you thereby being dualistic?

 

From where I stand, when people use the word "reality", they're only talking about their own. The actual world is unknowable, so "reality" is always the simulacrum in our head, our model, our understanding.

 

Therefore: "yo" or "manifest" only points toward the simulacrum. "Wu" points toward the actual world, which is unknowable, which is why it is mystery.

 

Maybe there is a multiverse, in which Marblehead simultaneously gets up for coffee, and stays in his seat. We don't know, but it's a popular theory with some very smart scientists. So, even the most obvious "reality" is subject to doubt, because what we perceive is only our interpretation of what just seemed to happen.

 

The call to mystery is the same IMO as the call to emptiness: the willingness to surrender my model of the world, and experience life without certainty.

[zerostao]

"Anyhow, neat how this thread moved from talking about our taking responsibility for our manifestations and action to a discussion of unity, oneness and dualities. "

 

don't forget "self" and imo these are all tied together anyways.

i just wanted to make sure i was placing this post on the right thread heheh

would we have what we would call the "true self" ?

is it the task of the psychologist to explore this idea?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_%28Jung%29

 

we have discussed here b4 on TTB this idea of a "collective unconscious".

one important element in this theory is "the archetypes of the collective unconscious";

these archetypes are not inherited images. they are dispositions to form certain

symbols and images.

they cannot be known of themselves and they cannot be encountered directly.

but they are encountered thru their manifestations in these symbols and/or images.

Jung calls them 'the organs of the pre-rational psyche' and explains that as our

physical organs are the result of a long process of bodily development,

so the archetypes are the outcome of the whole inner experience of the human race.

they are the centers of energy, of immense power, and the symbols thru which they

are manifested. (and enshrining the deepest spiritual wisdom of the human race)

 

Jung defines "self" as ' the archetypal image that leads out of polarity to the

unity of both partial systems - thru a common mid-point'

so, it is containing the idea of something which leads to a synthesis ,wholeness,

the coming together of those polar opposites present in the phenomenal world.

since,(according to Jung)the self itself is an archetype, it cannot be directly known,

but only thru the symbols which are the manifestations of its archetypal energy.

 

without a doubt this is described in psychological terms. sometimes Jung calls the self "the whole"

other times "the periphery" or "the center of the psyche".

that faculty ,or "organ of the psyche" may be what mystics call the spark, apex,

center, ground of the soul, etc

is this how we connect our personality with the tao?

we do possess some possibility for the connection, right?

[Marblehead]

LOL. Still using your lingo, your 'non-Self' - would be the Wu counterpart of your manifest Self. As there is nothing that does not have both aspects, my guess is that includes you. My post was more a blink towards those paths that teach the elimination of half of what is Natural.

 

warm regards

 

Yep. My first English instructor told me that I write exactly as I speak in the first person. Yes Dear, non-Self is, in my understanding, is us when we are fully immersed in the state of 'wu'. But there we have no self so how could we define a non-self?

 

Hehehe. Are you sure I am not totally 'yo'? Perhaps I am one of Wayne's 'lost souls'?

 

But true, Chi is both Yin and Yang. Destroy one and you no longer have Chi.

[Marblehead]

This thread made me think of my own life experience.

 

Well, you have agreement from me but you probably already knew that.

[Aaron]

Well, you have agreement from me but you probably already knew that.

 

 

I actually wrote a pretty lengthy piece last night about Love or at least how I came to understand it and part of it had to do with the realization that we are responsible for our own pasts and future. In other words, crap happens, but we are ultimately responsible for how our lives are. If your life is crappy, then it's most likely not Karma that's made it crappy, but rather how you've chosen to interact with the world.

 

You crap on a lot of people, expect people to crap on you. That's the simple truth of it all.

 

Aaron

Edited July 20, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Okay, I'm going to have to break this down into sections to be able to respond as best I can.

 

Nice conversation, everyone.

 

Marblehead, I want to offer a little challenge. When you say that something is or is not reality, aren't you thereby being dualistic?

 

Well, of course. But it is not I who is creating the dualities. It is Yin and Yang; it is Manifest and Mystery; It is 'wu' and 'yo'.

 

From where I stand, when people use the word "reality", they're only talking about their own. The actual world is unknowable, so "reality" is always the simulacrum in our head, our model, our understanding.

 

Generally, (I had to use that word) when I speak of 'reality' I am speaking of the manifest universe. Yes, my reality exist in there somewhere. And I have mentioned before, there are a few illusions and delusions in my reality when I am at home. This allows my life to be much more peaceful. But when I leave home I don't take them with me. When I leave home I am in the universal reality where tigers eat humans.

 

Therefore: "yo" or "manifest" only points toward the simulacrum. "Wu" points toward the actual world, which is unknowable, which is why it is mystery.

 

It is my understanding, thanks to Dr.Wayne L Wang, that 'yo' is a subset of 'wu'. Yo is an exact production of wu. So I suppose that what you say is valid. However, being unknowable, how can we know? I don't know but my intuition tells me that it is so.

 

Maybe there is a multiverse, in which Marblehead simultaneously gets up for coffee, and stays in his seat. We don't know, but it's a popular theory with some very smart scientists. So, even the most obvious "reality" is subject to doubt, because what we perceive is only our interpretation of what just seemed to happen.

 

Well, you get another agreement from me, again thanks to Dr Wang. Although he did not speak to the possibility of multiple universes, the way he spoke to yo being a subset of wu it left open the possibility that there could be more than one universe and yes, I could be having a cup of coffee and have remained deated simultaneously.

 

Scientifically, the manifest universe (the physically detectable universe) is only 4.6% of totality. This is 'real' matter. It is said that 'Dark Matter' consists of about 23% of totality. This would allow for an additional 5 universes. I would think that these 'other universes' are governed by different sets of "Tzujan" - natural processes and this is why they are undetectable, if any actually exist.

 

But my life must be conducted according to what is knowable. I cannot say "I don't know." whatever and then center my life around it. I must live my life based on what I can know. And this is why I have and always will stress the importance of the manifest universe and its processes.

 

The call to mystery is the same IMO as the call to emptiness: the willingness to surrender my model of the world, and experience life without certainty.

 

Editted to correct one misspelled word. I am sure there are more.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

"Anyhow, neat how this thread moved from talking about our taking responsibility for our manifestations and action to a discussion of unity, oneness and dualities. "

 

don't forget "self" and imo these are all tied together anyways.

 

Well, of course you think they are all tied together. Afterall, you are working with the concept of unity at the moment. Hehehe.

 

Yeah, "self" was recently added to this discussion, wasn't it?

 

As to "collective unconscious", I am limited as to my opinions. I will accept the inherited (from the mother) aspect of it and I will consider the possibility of semi-universal collective symbolism in all of humankind. Don't know how much further I could go with that though without further serious consideration.

[Marblehead]

I actually wrote a pretty lengthy piece last night about Love or at least how I came to understand it and part of it had to do with the realization that we are responsible for our own pasts and future. In other words, crap happens, but we are ultimately responsible for how our lives are. If your life is crappy, then it's most likely not Karma that's made it crappy, but rather how you've chosen to interact with the world.

 

You crap on a lot of people, expect people to crap on you. That's the simple truth of it all.

 

Aaron

 

Yeah, but we need be careful here because there are a lot of people who have crappy lives and it is no fault of their own. Rather it is a result of their environment, the people they interact with, etc, and they have no idea of how they can excape their crappy situation. I can honestly say that I truely feel sorry for these folks. I do try to help when I can in whatever way I can but I'm not on a crusade to save people.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but we need be careful here because there are a lot of people who have crappy lives and it is no fault of their own. Rather it is a result of their environment, the people they interact with, etc, and they have no idea of how they can excape their crappy situation. I can honestly say that I truely feel sorry for these folks. I do try to help when I can in whatever way I can but I'm not on a crusade to save people.

 

I agree, there are certain people whose lives are crappy through no fault of their own. I'm not trying to say people are living in poverty because they're lazy, because that's not true, what I'm saying is that, more often than not, if everyone thinks you're a jerk, it's because you act like a jerk. It's not until we take responsibility for our actions that we can ultimately change them.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

I agree, there are certain people whose lives are crappy through no fault of their own. I'm not trying to say people are living in poverty because they're lazy, because that's not true, what I'm saying is that, more often than not, if everyone thinks you're a jerk, it's because you act like a jerk. It's not until we take responsibility for our actions that we can ultimately change them.

 

Aaron

 

Hehehe. I knew you were aware of the other aspects as well. I just wanted that one aspect to not be overlooked in the discussion.

 

But I agree that if the means for bettering one's self are available but we do not take advantage of the opportunity we must take responsibility for our inaction (laziness?, maybe fear?).

[Otis]

Well, of course. But it is not I who is creating the dualities. It is Yin and Yang; it is Manifest and Mystery; It is 'wu' and 'yo'.

Are you sure? If there were such a thing as the science of the actual, I would think it is quantum physics. Which suggests that duality is not a real thing in the world, but is a projection, created by expectations. A plant doesn't care whether a photon is a wave or a particle, but it is our projection (according to the double slit experiment) that forces "reality" into dualism.

 

Especially saying "X is real" and "Y is not real" is assuming a rather omniscient point of view, one that can distinguish between the two. If quantum physics can't always decide what is real, then it seems unlikely that our mundane view of the world can.

 

Generally, (I had to use that word) when I speak of 'reality' I am speaking of the manifest universe.

Do you mean that at least 50% of the time?

 

Yes, my reality exist in there somewhere. And I have mentioned before, there are a few illusions and delusions in my reality when I am at home. This allows my life to be much more peaceful. But when I leave home I don't take them with me. When I leave home I am in the universal reality where tigers eat humans.

Ah, but tigers rarely eat humans. So humans create an image of the world in which some threats are real, and some not, but it's very hard to ascertain (especially without statistical analysis) how accurate our assumptions are.

 

But my life must be conducted according to what is knowable. I cannot say "I don't know." whatever and then center my life around it. I must live my life based on what I can know. And this is why I have and always will stress the importance of the manifest universe and its processes.

But is this really so? I think that most people live life according to assumptions, not "what is knowable". Do you know that the driver beside you is going to stay in their lane? Do you know what your lady friend is feeling, at any particular time? Do you know how your mutual fund is going to perform? No, all you have are assumptions, and managed risks.

 

So, we all live in the unknown. The question is: are we willing to drop our illusion of knowing, and surrender into the "I don't know", which happens to be true all the time?

 

Editted to correct one misspelled word. I am sure there are more.

Haha! Like "edited".