Definition of Ch'an in The Sutra of Hui Neng

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thought I would post this for all interested, as Hui Neng is regarded as one of the earliest influences on Ch'an and Zen, which are important to the "fire methods" of Taoism.

 

(in Chapter 6, translation by A.F. Price and Wong Mou-lam, 1929. Note: the text says that arrogance and dishonesty are translations of the single word asatya)

 

"Now what is the meaning of ch'an? Ch'an refers to the repentance of past sins. To repent of all our past sins and evil deeds committed under delusion, ignorance, arrogance, dishonesty, jealousy, or envy, and so on, so as to put an end to all of them, is called ch'an. Hui refers to that part of repentance concerning our future conduct. Having realized the nature of our transgression [we make a vow] that hereafter we will put an end to all kinds of evil committed under delusion, ignorance, arrogance, dishonesty, jealousy, or envy, and that we shall never sin again. This is hui."

 

Another interesting message in The Sutra of Hui Neng is that he says one should not strive for "no-thought" or "thoughtlessness" but instead for "idea-lessness."

 

"But it is a great mistake to suppress our mind from all thinking; for even if we succeed in getting rid of all thoughts, and die immediately thereafter, still we shall be reincarnated elsewhere."(chapter 4)

 

Peace.

[Walker]

Without reading the Chinese I can't be 100% sure, but allow me to try and clear something up lest there be confusion in this thread.

 

The character for the first "Ch'an" you mention, which is the name of a school of Chinese Buddhism as well as Japanese "Zen" is 禅, and is, if memory serves, a rough transliteration of the Sanskrit word dhyana.

 

The character refered to in the quoted passage is almost surely 忏, which when combined with the character 悔 (hui) becomes the word 忏悔, which in Chinese Buddhist and Daoist circles refers to a practice somewhat akin to "confession." As you can see in the quoted passage, the practice being described is indeed like confession, and is not dhyana.

 

Another clarification: the "Hui" from the title "The Sutra of Hui Neng" is not the above hui and is rather 慧. Again, very different meaning. 慧能 (Hui Neng) is the name of the sixth patriach; 慧 by itself could be translated as wisdom, though I'm sure more nuanced translations are also possible.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Walker

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Without reading the Chinese I can't be 100% sure, but allow me to try and clear something up lest there be confusion in this thread.

 

The character for the first "Ch'an" you mention, which is the name of a school of Chinese Buddhism as well as Japanese "Zen" is 禅, and is, if memory serves, a rough transliteration of the Sanskrit word dhyana.

 

The character refered to in the quoted passage is almost surely 忏, which when combined with the character 悔 (hui) becomes the word 忏悔, which in Chinese Buddhist and Daoist circles refers to a practice somewhat akin to "confession." As you can see in the quoted passage, the practice being described is indeed like confession, and is not dhyana.

 

Another clarification: the "Hui" from the title "The Sutra of Hui Neng" is not the above hui and is rather 慧. Again, very different meaning. 慧能 (Hui Neng) is the name of the sixth patriach; 慧 by itself could be translated as wisdom, though I'm sure more nuanced translations are also possible.

 

Thanks for clarifying that. Glad TTB is available for stuff like that.

 

There is a lot about dhyana as well in this sutra. Maybe I can post some about that later.

 

I do find this part very helpful, nonetheless though. If one can repent of these things and vow not to do them in the future they will be on their way to "no-self" imo+e.

[exorcist_1699]

The two greatest Chinese Zen's writings are:

 

1) The preachings/Sutra of the sixth Patriach("六祖壇經")

 

2) Summary on how to transmit the Heart of Buddha ("傳心法要")

 

These two books are written by the Chinese, not Indians, but the indepth truth that they preach can only be matched by very few Buddhist Sutra , say the Diamond Sutra Buddha or the Heart Sutra.

 

Only after having read and understood these two works, can any person claim that he understands what Chinese Zen is .

 

Better read the original copy of them, for only translators who achieve the same or close level of an enlightedned Mind can do the translation well, which seems unlikely to get ...

Edited July 15, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The two greatest Chinese Zen's writings are:

 

1) The preachings/Sutra of the sixth Patriach("六祖壇經")

 

2) Summary on how to transmit the Heart of Buddha ("傳心法要")

 

 

Who wrote "Summary on how to transmit the Heart of Buddha"?

 

Also, when did Cha'an come about as a word for dhyana? I mean, the Chinese could pronounce every other sanskrit word with some accuracy. Why would this word be so far off? Do the Chinese use the word Ch'an to describe Ch'an Buddhism? I understand dhyana/non-attachment is central to Ch'an Buddhism, but the word transiteration doesn't seem consistent with others..

Edited July 15, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Better read the original copy of them, for only translators who achieve the same or close level of an enlightedned Mind can do the translation well, which seems unlikely to get ...

 

 

I think the ideas are there to relate to the person's experience. Surely there will be a better understanding knowing the original Chinese with the word associations, but the ideas are not Chinese ideas, the translations point to things that exist in every mind. It's only because they're in the mind that one can see them, etc..

 

I have two translations for The Sutra of Hui Neng and the ideas presented are the same in each, though they have different ways of structuring or presenting the ideas, mainly one being more concise while the other more detailed.

[exorcist_1699]

Who wrote "Summary on how to transmit the Heart of Buddha"?

 

 

The book is a collection of the preachings of a Tang- dynasty Zen monk whose name is Huang Bo (黃檗) .

[ChiDragon]

My source tells me that the origin of Zen was from India but the Chinese's definition of Zen was a little different from the Hindu. Zen was practiced by high Buddha priests in China tend to attain higher wisdom to reach enlightenment by deep meditation or Zazen.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

My source tells me that the origin of Zen was from India but the Chinese's definition of Zen was a little different from the Hindu.

 

Yes, most of the almost radical focus changes for Ch'an seem to have been motivated by sermons from Boddhidarma who was Indian. There is are also entirely zen-like elements in Hinduism though there is great debate on who influenced who.

 

Having read a translation of Boddhidharma and a translation of Hui Neng, I personally find Hui Neng's instruction to be a bit more clarified and thus easier to practice. Either way, they are both illucidating the same source of inspiration.

 

 

Again, is Ch'an Buddhism pronounced as "Ch'an" in Chinese? I can't really see how the word came to stand for dhyana when there is already a word "Ch'an" and so many other sanskrit words remain unmodified.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The book is a collection of the preachings of a Tang- dynasty Zen monk whose name is Huang Bo (黃檗) .

 

Oh okay. That's part of "Transmission of the Light." I did read most of the Cleary translation a few years ago. I think I stopped because I found it was more fantastical description than understandable, but I would like to look at it again (it's in another city right now) since reading that Liu I Ming also regarded this as a primary Ch'an teaching.

[dawei]

Another thing I'm very interested to hear your view on, is in regards to "meaning of Ch'an according to Hui-Neng" topic. I understand that Ch'an Buddhism could be translated as Dhyana Buddhism, but I don't get how Dhyana turned into "Ch'an" when so many other Sanskrit words remained similar to the original. Especially, when Ch'an had another meaning regarding repentance.

From the other thread... sorry I had missed this as I used to read a lot of Zen and the earliest masters were my favorites.

 

The short answer to your query is: "dhyana" was originally transliterated as chan na (禪那); shortened to chan (禪).

 

As Walker correctly points out:

The character refered to in the quoted passage is almost surely 忏, which when combined with the character 悔 (hui) becomes the word 忏悔, which in Chinese Buddhist and Daoist circles refers to a practice somewhat akin to "confession."

 

So the section you quote mentions Ch'an but this is NOT Zen nor the word for Dhyana; it is the first character of Repentence. He called this the "formless Ch'an Hui (忏悔).

 

Dhyana is like a system, and although often referred to as meaning meditation, it was also said to have four dhyanas to go through. It was combined with other practices and at times so thus also considered a practice (like Dharana-concentration and Samadhi-unity).

 

The essence of HuiNeng was a continuation of Bodhidharma's idea of the first principle:

"A special transmission outside scriptures, not founded on words or letters"

 

When a master was once asked to explain this, he said: "If words could tell you then it would be the second principle"... enuf said here...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

 

The short answer to your query is: "dhyana" was originally transliterated as chan na (禪那); shortened to chan (禪).

 

As Walker correctly points out:

The character refered to in the quoted passage is almost surely 忏, which when combined with the character 悔 (hui) becomes the word 忏悔, which in Chinese Buddhist and Daoist circles refers to a practice somewhat akin to "confession."

 

So the section you quote mentions Ch'an but this is NOT Zen nor the word for Dhyana; it is the first character of Repentence. He called this the "formless Ch'an Hui (忏悔).

 

Dhyana is like a system, and although often referred to as meaning meditation, it was also said to have four dhyanas to go through. It was combined with other practices and at times so thus also considered a practice (like Dharana-concentration and Samadhi-unity).

 

The essence of HuiNeng was a continuation of Bodhidharma's idea of the first principle:

"A special transmission outside scriptures, not founded on words or letters"

 

When a master was once asked to explain this, he said: "If words could tell you then it would be the second principle"... enuf said here...

 

Hm. So Ch'an Hui might bring one to Dhyana, but is not Dhyana.

 

Paradise awaits

The boat floats, so we paddle

No clouds in the sea

 

[dawei]

Hm. So Ch'an Hui might bring one to Dhyana, but is not Dhyana.

 

Paradise awaits

The boat floats, so we paddle

No clouds in the sea

Maybe this is a bad analogy. Have you ever coached a team or directed others in a path which you are highly trained but others are not?

 

You show them a prescribed path; sometimes of many steps; but once the awakening occurs, they realize that all the steps are... [fill in the enlightenment blank]