Play with Fire to Invoke the Devil.

[ChiDragon]

One tried to practice a method to improve his health. However, one does not have a full understanding of the method and proceed with the practice but ended up with a reverse effect. This reverse condition was known as "play with fire to invoke the devil". Have you heard of this before or have any idea about it...??? Have you thought about that before you go into any method that people claimed is OK to practice on your own...???

[Mahberry]

You mean 走火入魔?

 

Transliteration: Run Fire Enter Demon

 

I think it means your fire went out of control and the demon enters you.

 

Widely used terms among Chinese even without knowledge of Taoism.

 

Tibetan Buddhism seems to have a lot of secret practices that causes that if done incorrectly like the tsa lung practices. I guess it's analogous to breath practices in other traditions.

 

All Buddhist practices like shamatha and vipassana is safe. Not sure about pure qigong practices but there's a lot of accounts people packing too much chi in their bodies and harming their organs in the process (I read all about this from Bruce Frantzis's works). Still, Enter Demon means you went funny in the head so I guess it takes a pretty high level of practice to actually be that dangerous.

[C T]

You mean 走火入魔?

 

Transliteration: Run Fire Enter Demon

 

I think it means your fire went out of control and the demon enters you.

 

Widely used terms among Chinese even without knowledge of Taoism.

 

Isnt that a metaphor that the Chinese use when something backfires or when some scheme goes havoc?

 

Its such a common usage in the Far East. I actually forgot the term until you brought it up.

 

I think it also refers to men who overdose on nutritious herbal essences for the sake of 'upping' their virility. I could be wrong...

Edited July 15, 2011 by CowTao

[ChiDragon]

Isnt that a metaphor that the Chinese use when something backfires or when some scheme goes havoc?

 

EXACTLY....走火入魔...

[Mahberry]

Isnt that a metaphor that the Chinese use when something backfires or when some scheme goes havoc?

 

Its such a common usage in the Far East. I actually forgot the term until you brought it up.

 

I think it also refers to men who overdose on nutritious herbal essences for the sake of 'upping' their virility. I could be wrong...

Yea, it's a very common metaphor Chinese use to describe someone who's dysfunctionally obsessed or passionately absorbed with something. (i.e. He's in front of the TV playing on his playstation for 6 hours now, it's like he's 走火入魔)

 

I think it's popularized by wuxia novels depicting heroes practicing secret techniques accidently overstirred their energy system and become crazy as a result. Which fits perfectly into the description of young men taking aphrodisiacs (overstirred) and turning into sex maniacs (crazy).

 

Fire(火) might just simply be a metaphor for our energetic body. So, run fire(走火) might just mean our energetic body is out of whack.

 

Useless trivia ensues:

 

走火 is commonly used to mean a firearm discharging accidently (also humorously means ejaculating when you don't intend to).

 

But when used in 走火入魔 it means you lost control of your fire (I guess?). Now... this might or might not be connected, it's an old Chinese belief that we have 3 fires on us, one on each shoulder and one on top of our head. When all 3 goes off, you'll open your 'yin yang eyes' (our two eyes, not the third eye) and start seeing ghosts and spirits around you. That's why there's this taboo of not looking back if someone calls you by your name at night when you're in some desolated places, for fear of extinguishing the fire on your shoulders when you turn your head to the side.

[Jetsun]

One tried to practice a method to improve his health. However, one does not have a full understanding of the method and proceed with the practice but ended up with a reverse effect. This reverse condition was known as "play with fire to invoke the devil". Have you heard of this before or have any idea about it...??? Have you thought about that before you go into any method that people claimed is OK to practice on your own...???

 

Quite often people come to this board with health problems after practising Mantik Chai sexual qigong stuff, it seems quite common for things to go wrong with this sort of practice when they don't have a teacher.

[C T]

Yea, it's a very common metaphor Chinese use to describe someone who's dysfunctionally obsessed or passionately absorbed with something. (i.e. He's in front of the TV playing on his playstation for 6 hours now, it's like he's 走火入魔)

 

I think it's popularized by wuxia novels depicting heroes practicing secret techniques accidently overstirred their energy system and become crazy as a result. Which fits perfectly into the description of young men taking aphrodisiacs (overstirred) and turning into sex maniacs (crazy).

 

Fire(火) might just simply be a metaphor for our energetic body. So, run fire(走火) might just mean our energetic body is out of whack.

 

Useless trivia ensues:

 

走火 is commonly used to mean a firearm discharging accidently (also humorously means ejaculating when you don't intend to).

 

But when used in 走火入魔 it means you lost control of your fire (I guess?). Now... this might or might not be connected, it's an old Chinese belief that we have 3 fires on us, one on each shoulder and one on top of our head. When all 3 goes off, you'll open your 'yin yang eyes' (our two eyes, not the third eye) and start seeing ghosts and spirits around you. That's why there's this taboo of not looking back if someone calls you by your name at night when you're in some desolated places, for fear of extinguishing the fire on your shoulders when you turn your head to the side.

haha... thanks. Very informational, Mahberry.

 

That thing about walking straight on without turning to look behind... i remember as a kid growing up being forewarned about it.

Still practicing this - afraid some silly notions simply refuse to fade with time.

[ChiDragon]

Quite often people come to this board with health problems after practising Mantik Chai sexual qigong stuff, it seems quite common for things to go wrong with this sort of practice when they don't have a teacher.

That was exactly where I was aiming at. Besides, this is not something good to go after or to be practiced. Perhaps, only one out of a million might be successful. It was not healthy even just to think about it. My advice here to all the healthy young men was to stay away from this practice because you are "playing with fire to invoke the devil".

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You mean 走火入魔?

 

Transliteration: Run Fire Enter Demon

 

I think it means your fire went out of control and the demon enters you.

 

 

Is Run descriptive of the fire, or could mean "Running into the fire (with fire of desire) allows demon to enter"? This sounds like the example with video games, and with Taoist Alchemy, that someone runs into it with haste and desire and this allows them to be possessed by - the video game, or the energy/fire, or by demons of desire.

[ChiDragon]

To my best understanding, it seems to me that Mahberry has the best explanation of the common metaphor.

[ChiDragon]

Perhaps this thread in the *Contributed Articles* section may be of help:

 

Things We Don't Know - Mantak Chia's System

 

Little1 speaks about the importance of incorporating foundational practices before attempting sexual qigong.

Yes, but this is still not the place to encourage everyone to go into the practice. Perhaps, it does more harm then good.

Edited July 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Still, Enter Demon means you went funny in the head so I guess it takes a pretty high level of practice to actually be that dangerous.

 

Yeah, I think that at least at a moderate level some basic understanding/awareness/respect for sexual energy is good since popular culture thrives on inviting people to squander their desires. It gives a higher respect for sexual union (when not a selfish vamping), making it a more spiritual act that requires a control of self that many lack.

 

There is a misunderstanding that many have however, that a lusty nature is a sign of health. The Yellow Emperor says that "strong passions reduce and exhaust the emanations, whereas a moderate passion strengthens the emanations and makes them fertile. Strong passion consumes its emanations, whereas the emanations feed a moderate flame of lust... (book 2)."

[Mahberry]

That thing about walking straight on without turning to look behind... i remember as a kid growing up being forewarned about it.

Still practicing this - afraid some silly notions simply refuse to fade with time.

I do as well.

 

Is Run descriptive of the fire, or could mean "Running into the fire (with fire of desire) allows demon to enter"? This sounds like the example with video games, and with Taoist Alchemy, that someone runs into it with haste and desire and this allows them to be possessed by - the video game, or the energy/fire, or by demons of desire.

走(Run) almost always imply running away from unless you stick it next to 入(Enter/Go Into) which then means Running Into (走入).

 

All Chinese metaphors are purposely abbreviated to give off a poetic quality. So, they would have used 进(Move Towards) instead of 走(Run) in that case.

 

Not sure if still relevant:

 

入魔(Enter Demon) would literally mean 'entering into a demon' but in context of 走火入魔 it instead means the 'demon enters you'. In fact, the phrase 入魔 is commonly used to mean 'possessed'.

 

Still, some Chinese metaphors are jumbled up in a playful way like 亲朋戚友(friends and relatives) which is actually made of 亲戚(Relatives) and 朋友(Friends). Take note of how they're spliced together, chen peng chi you constructed from chen chi and peng you. Applied to 走火入魔, this becomes 走入 火魔 (running into the fire demon) but 走火入魔 is not one of the jumbled ones.

 

走火入魔 is one of the more loaded Chinese metaphors that isn't obvious from the outset and requires some prior knowledge of how it came into being. The metaphor itself originates from cultivation practices literature but most Chinese exposure to to it is from wuxia movies.

[Pu-erh]

After reading through this, as well as the Thing We Don't Know thread that was linked to, I have a question. If the sexual practices such as retention are really that advanced, requiring 10-15 years of preparation according to one of Little1's posts, then... first of all, why would M. Chia publish something like The Multi-Orgasmic Man, which promotes the practice to all men regardless of previous experience, and makes Taming the White Tiger sound so easy?

 

And secondly, what about those of us young guys who aren't necessarily worried about immortality or developing siddhis but just want to be able to last longer in bed? Personally, I've attempted to practice according to the instructions in Chia's books and have not been able to separate orgasm from ejaculation. I've even done a course with a teacher of another method (the Sexual Energy Mastery course with Jim Benson through AMP). I might be able to increase my endurance somewhat through solo cultivation and other practices but I still haven't experienced an orgasm without ejaculating. Just for reference, I am 26, generally healthy, practice Taijiquan, meditate, etc.

 

I suspect that I am not the only one who is attracted to these sexual kung fu practices due to a desire to increase sexual prowess, rather than some more lofty goal. Not that I'm not interested in siddhis or enlightenment, obviously, just that it wouldn't be my primary motivation for learning sexual kung fu.

 

So, I guess my second question is: if a man just wants to increase staying power without necessarily Taming the White Tiger (yet, or unless that is part of the answer) what practice(s) should he do?

 

Apologies in advance if this is unclear or too far off-topic.

[ChiDragon]

Apologies in advance if this is unclear or too far off-topic.

Perhaps it was very attractive and most desirable for young men and urge them to rush into without question. The subject is really irresistible to turn away. Indeed, that will make the book a best seller. Don't you think...???

 

The urge of sexual desire was the greatest weakness which made our young men most vulnerable to lure into the practice without hesitation and reconsideration.

 

PS...

You are right on. No apology needed.

Edited July 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

Is Run descriptive of the fire, or could mean "Running into the fire (with fire of desire) allows demon to enter"? This sounds like the example with video games, and with Taoist Alchemy, that someone runs into it with haste and desire and this allows them to be possessed by - the video game, or the energy/fire, or by demons of desire.

 

 

I read elsewhere it referred to qigong psychosis /kundalini syndrome and was to be avoided where possible during cultivation and treated when diagnosed.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

So, I guess my second question is: if a man just wants to increase staying power without necessarily Taming the White Tiger (yet, or unless that is part of the answer) what practice(s) should he do?

 

 

He should read Daniel Reid's book on the subject which gives a much broader context of this practice within ancient Chinese culture. Chia's book is more advanced, and thus more often a Run Fire Enter Demon situation, ime.

 

The key is gradual at every stage, and even more gradual at higher stages. Like everything: patience, perseverance, practice.

[Pu-erh]

Thanks for the recommendation, Harmonious Emptiness. I will check that out.

[ChiDragon]

I read elsewhere it referred to qigong psychosis /kundalini syndrome and was to be avoided where possible during cultivation and treated when diagnosed.

Yes, -K-. This would have happened, most lightly, at a higher level of the Qigong practice, rather than at a lower level. However, there is one style called 自發功(zi fa gong). It could happen to anyone at a lower level if the practitioner doesn't know how the close it at the end. He may be ended up in the hospital. The western medical science doesn't know what kind of symptom that was and the practitioner will be treated as he/she was insane.

[Birch]

I figure a lot of "high-level" practices are "out there" and being taught, and that the less than desirable effects/stages might be more common than we think.

So IMO, it's very much worth learning about what such things are. And having the Western docs understand it too.

[Ish]

Yes, -K-. This would have happened, most lightly, at a higher level of the Qigong practice, rather than at a lower level. However, there is one style called 自發功(zi fa gong). It could happen to anyone at a lower level if the practitioner doesn't know how the close it at the end. He may be ended up in the hospital. The western medical science doesn't know what kind of symptom that was and the practitioner will be treated as he/she was insane.

 

This is a problem with incompetent people teaching internal arts thinking they are just gentle external excercise. I believe zi fa gong is spontaneous movemement chi kung, if so its just as simple as slowing down the chi flow gently and storing the energy at the dan tian.

As an analogy if you are driving a car quickly (fast chi flow) you dont slam the brakes the stop the car, you slow down gradually.

Also if you are a beginner dont practice to vigorously as you don't have good control.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Ish

[ChiDragon]

This is a problem with incompetent people teaching internal arts thinking they are just gentle external excercise. I believe zi fa gong is spontaneous movemement chi kung, if so its just as simple as slowing down the chi flow gently and storing the energy at the dan tian.

As an analogy if you are driving a car quickly (fast chi flow) you dont slam the brakes the stop the car, you slow down gradually.

Also if you are a beginner dont practice to vigorously as you don't have good control.

 

自發功(zi fa gong)

Let me tell you what 自發(zi fa) is. It means "automatic" from the inner self without control. After you begin your movements, you're just moving around all over the place restlessly in motion with the eyes closed.

Edited July 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

Righto, all for spontaneous:-) But I do reckon there might be moments in/within that kind of practice that without closedown could f&ck some people up.

Look at the stuff "out there" on abreaction. Look at the stuff out there on the various routes anger could take if you're working with/on it. Look at some of the primal therapy stuff. Look at a super-weird "therapeutic/teaching" model, all avant-garde but has no idea what it's dealing with.

[Ish]

自發功(zi fa gong)

Let me tell you what 自發(zi fa) is. It means "automatic" from the inner self without control. After you begin your movements, you're just moving around all over the place restlessly in motion with the eyes closed.

 

Yes I usually practice this daily, although sometimes its spontaneous stillness which is equally enjoyable.

I feel it's an excellent art that touches at the heart of Taoism in that it leads you deeper into wu wei and you learn to let go more and more.