'No self' my experience so far...

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Bums!

I have been planning to write a review for a while of my experience of 'No self' [so far], so here goes.

 

Back a bit Xabir posted his Ruthless Truth post, and I got Interested.

 

I was already very familiar with the teachings around No self, thanks to the epic postings and debates with Vaj, Xabir and CowTao here at the Bums. [thanks by the way]

 

But the Idea was purely intellectual for me. I thought what the heck, I'll give RT a shot.

 

It took a long time to get accepted as a member but when I did, I entered straight into dialogue, and did my best to just follow their prompts, and look at the nature [if present] of Self.

It circled round and round a bit, I think because I cooperated and didn't try to argue or debate them, it didn't descend [much] into name calling, as It often can over there.

 

I had done quite a bit of the Mahamudra style of meditation, where you question "who is thinking, seeing..." as thinking or seeing itself is actually happening, and in meditation could easily see that when you look to see - who is thinking, there is no one actually there - but this never really carried over into daily life.

 

Anyway, someone suggested shifting focus, and lying in bed one night, contemplating the days discussions I suddenly 'saw' as clear as day that I have never seen the slightest evidence for this 'alleged self' and there is quite clearly - No self! Never has been, never will be.

 

Now this realisation has had quite an impact on me.

 

Before I get to that, I will give you a little history. I grew up in an intensely abusive religious cult. I had been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder and possible Bipolar disorder, both of which I managed myself over the years with meditation, mindfulness practices and healing modalities.

 

I worked on everything I was able to, but I knew that 'underneath' I had stuff I could not reach.

Now at the moment I am studying Transpersonal Counselling. A few months before my realisation, I stepped into class [a dream module] one morning, and the teacher asked who had a dream. I put my hand up, so she chose me to demo the process we were learning. I shared a quite innocent sounding dream and we began the process, when she suddenly backed out, saying she was caught between being a teacher and a therapist, and that we had hit serious developmental flags, and could not continue publicly.

I thought 'how strange' as I felt fine and did not know what what she was worried about. She kept checking in with me during the day, but I was fine, till going home. I started to feel very heavy and dense. I wrote it off as fatigue, and went to bed.

 

That night I woke up thinking I was having a heart attack. I held my pulse and it was fine, so no heart attack. I was having a serious panic attack.

I barely made it to school the next day, and the teacher ran up and said "are you alright?" She had thought more about my dream when she got home, and then got really worried. She organised counsellors for me, and I finally got to start plumbing the depths in a way that I had never been able to do before.

 

Unfortunately It was going well but very slowly, but my panic attacks were getting worse and more and more overwhelming. Till I was forced to take medication. That was an extremely hard decision because I have refused medication my whole life. But this shit was real deep and utterly terrifying to my core. Any way they put me on a light dose of Diazapam which is a valium based medication. It took enough of the edge off things to be able to still work on my problems. Caffine, and driving would still trigger strong panic, as well as physical fatigue, and when doing these things I would have to increase my dose...

 

 

Back to realisation Land. After realising No self I had a very strange next day.

All the things that make up Seth were still there, but they were no longer 'held together' by a false story or a set of Ideas with a false claim to self hood.

 

I didn't take my medication. Panic arose, but so did blissful spaciousness, and a sense freedom without boundaries... Everything that arose passed easily.

 

The next day I really tested it. I drank a can of V and drove an hour and a half {which alone would have had me lying fetal and gasping for breath only two days earlier} and then spent the next 8 hours digging deep trenches for a friend. I was fine.

 

Its been a month, [today i think] since I got it, and what an interesting time.

 

I feel like I do not have to worry about the stuff inside me. It just comes up by it self and unravels or falls apart by it self. The Counselling course has me actively looking at stuff also, and that is good too.

I have never been so relaxed and laid back. I also seem to be more of a Lady magnet as well.

 

Mind you I can still loose my shit over stuff, but it passes much more quickly, and usually is far less Intense.

 

I have been reading a book on Nagajuna's teachings, that CowTao recommended to me, called the Sun Of Wisdom. Deep thanks Cow, its amazing.

Everything I read is just sliding Into place. It makes total sense as soon as I read it. I am not just understanding It mentally I am seeing it directly.

These understandings are helping me understand Longchenpa who is also blowing me away.

 

The world is simply empty appearance. All phenomena at any level is floating and dream like, empty in its nature.

 

If it sounds like I am dissociated guess again.

While I feel like I am becoming free from the Influence of the world, as its loosing its power over me, for I am seeing its ultimately unreal nature, and thus attachments are falling off me like flies, I feel more connected to the people I meet than ever.

 

I have more Time for everyone I meet.

And I feel a great sense of love or Compassion often just rising up for everyone. It's not some emotion I am generating, It's just naturally arising.

 

So that's my story so far.

 

I do not really care whether people think No self is just another belief system, for if it is, it is astonishing in the internal psychological revolution that it brings about. For me It's value speaks for itself.

 

I Hope many people are Inspired to look for them selves...

 

Great Blessings!

OM Ah Hum!

Seth Ananda.

[Mandrake]

Thanks for sharing Seth!

Wish you all the best on you journey

 

 

Mandrake

[C T]

Wow...

 

I am so happy for you, Seth... really, really pleased you are clearing so much stuff.

 

It means a lot to hear of your realization, so thank you for sharing.

[Marblehead]

Indeed. Thanks for sharing.

 

And yes, it is a pleasure to hear of your progress to this point regardless of what 'system' you are using to make this progress.

 

Keep up the good work.

[Adishakti]

I also seem to be more of a Lady magnet as well.

 

 

You certainly are.

 

What's your name?

 

 

 

 

 

[juju]

Thanks a lot for sharing. It feels like your post will be quite helpful soon.

It is very good to know that one can and will continue to tidy up the underneath stuff, even when realizing more the non-existing-self.

[xabir2005]

Hi Bums!

I have been planning to write a review for a while of my experience of 'No self' [so far], so here goes.

 

Back a bit Xabir posted his Ruthless Truth post, and I got Interested.

 

I was already very familiar with the teachings around No self, thanks to the epic postings and debates with Vaj, Xabir and CowTao here at the Bums. [thanks by the way]

 

But the Idea was purely intellectual for me. I thought what the heck, I'll give RT a shot.

 

It took a long time to get accepted as a member but when I did, I entered straight into dialogue, and did my best to just follow their prompts, and look at the nature [if present] of Self.

It circled round and round a bit, I think because I cooperated and didn't try to argue or debate them, it didn't descend [much] into name calling, as It often can over there.

 

I had done quite a bit of the Mahamudra style of meditation, where you question "who is thinking, seeing..." as thinking or seeing itself is actually happening, and in meditation could easily see that when you look to see - who is thinking, there is no one actually there - but this never really carried over into daily life.

 

Anyway, someone suggested shifting focus, and lying in bed one night, contemplating the days discussions I suddenly 'saw' as clear as day that I have never seen the slightest evidence for this 'alleged self' and there is quite clearly - No self! Never has been, never will be.

 

Now this realisation has had quite an impact on me.

 

Before I get to that, I will give you a little history. I grew up in an intensely abusive religious cult. I had been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder and possible Bipolar disorder, both of which I managed myself over the years with meditation, mindfulness practices and healing modalities.

 

I worked on everything I was able to, but I knew that 'underneath' I had stuff I could not reach.

Now at the moment I am studying Transpersonal Counselling. A few months before my realisation, I stepped into class [a dream module] one morning, and the teacher asked who had a dream. I put my hand up, so she chose me to demo the process we were learning. I shared a quite innocent sounding dream and we began the process, when she suddenly backed out, saying she was caught between being a teacher and a therapist, and that we had hit serious developmental flags, and could not continue publicly.

I thought 'how strange' as I felt fine and did not know what what she was worried about. She kept checking in with me during the day, but I was fine, till going home. I started to feel very heavy and dense. I wrote it off as fatigue, and went to bed.

 

That night I woke up thinking I was having a heart attack. I held my pulse and it was fine, so no heart attack. I was having a serious panic attack.

I barely made it to school the next day, and the teacher ran up and said "are you alright?" She had thought more about my dream when she got home, and then got really worried. She organised counsellors for me, and I finally got to start plumbing the depths in a way that I had never been able to do before.

 

Unfortunately It was going well but very slowly, but my panic attacks were getting worse and more and more overwhelming. Till I was forced to take medication. That was an extremely hard decision because I have refused medication my whole life. But this shit was real deep and utterly terrifying to my core. Any way they put me on a light dose of Diazapam which is a valium based medication. It took enough of the edge off things to be able to still work on my problems. Caffine, and driving would still trigger strong panic, as well as physical fatigue, and when doing these things I would have to increase my dose...

 

 

Back to realisation Land. After realising No self I had a very strange next day.

All the things that make up Seth were still there, but they were no longer 'held together' by a false story or a set of Ideas with a false claim to self hood.

 

I didn't take my medication. Panic arose, but so did blissful spaciousness, and a sense freedom without boundaries... Everything that arose passed easily.

 

The next day I really tested it. I drank a can of V and drove an hour and a half {which alone would have had me lying fetal and gasping for breath only two days earlier} and then spent the next 8 hours digging deep trenches for a friend. I was fine.

 

Its been a month, [today i think] since I got it, and what an interesting time.

 

I feel like I do not have to worry about the stuff inside me. It just comes up by it self and unravels or falls apart by it self. The Counselling course has me actively looking at stuff also, and that is good too.

I have never been so relaxed and laid back. I also seem to be more of a Lady magnet as well.

 

Mind you I can still loose my shit over stuff, but it passes much more quickly, and usually is far less Intense.

 

I have been reading a book on Nagajuna's teachings, that CowTao recommended to me, called the Sun Of Wisdom. Deep thanks Cow, its amazing.

Everything I read is just sliding Into place. It makes total sense as soon as I read it. I am not just understanding It mentally I am seeing it directly.

These understandings are helping me understand Longchenpa who is also blowing me away.

 

The world is simply empty appearance. All phenomena at any level is floating and dream like, empty in its nature.

 

If it sounds like I am dissociated guess again.

While I feel like I am becoming free from the Influence of the world, as its loosing its power over me, for I am seeing its ultimately unreal nature, and thus attachments are falling off me like flies, I feel more connected to the people I meet than ever.

 

I have more Time for everyone I meet.

And I feel a great sense of love or Compassion often just rising up for everyone. It's not some emotion I am generating, It's just naturally arising.

 

So that's my story so far.

 

I do not really care whether people think No self is just another belief system, for if it is, it is astonishing in the internal psychological revolution that it brings about. For me It's value speaks for itself.

 

I Hope many people are Inspired to look for them selves...

 

Great Blessings!

OM Ah Hum!

Seth Ananda.

Thanks for the sharing As RT would say, "that's a confirmed" Edited July 15, 2011 by xabir2005

[rain]

The Dalai Lama spoke about this on Ustream from DC yesterday.

Lead Generation

------------------------------

 

What you share makes me reflect on the step wise unravelling of no self...

I believe reading Almaas I came across the insight;

you cannot loose something you never had.

 

when a character disorder is straightened out - a friction removed -

essence dawns on us

 

when one has lost all but the sense of self

one may gradually come to understand self is animated through mirror process

[manitou]

I have more Time for everyone I meet.

And I feel a great sense of love or Compassion often just rising up for everyone. It's not some emotion I am generating, It's just naturally arising.

 

 

Omigod. What a worthwhile class that was. When we Drop the Rock and stop believing in our own self-importance, that we've got to be running around here and there, and obtaining for ourselves, and teaching others what we think they don't know - then and only then will Life come to us. It just does, that's the onset of true wu-wei. Letting life come to us instead; making no judgments on anything, just let Life bring us what it will, and we respond in the way that Love dictates at that moment.

 

It's all about losing self-importance and stilling the inner dialogue. It is then that the wu-wei can be realized. And yes, we do have more time for everyone else; and we also have time for appreciating the serendipity in life; to get out of ourselves and our inner dialogue. Our ego has been relaxed. We no longer feel the need to Prove ourselves in any way; we don't have to be the one shouting out the answers.

 

Basically, we're in a state of I Don't Know....because we've made no judgments of what's good and what's bad. It just Is....and often times our judgments are wrong. How often have we seen good come out of bad, and vice versa? There's just no such thing as good or evil. The sage will find a way to act in Love in every situation and with every person he comes in contact with. (If we can maintain the Awareness).

 

Life gets so much easier, it's almost ridiculous.

Edited July 15, 2011 by manitou

[JohnC]

Awesome post Seth.

 

Way to be.

 

John

[Bluefront]

Sounds great.. Nice experiences, now just beware of clinging to them.

Always go FURTHER.. never stop.. always further

RT is cool because it helps people see that when they look for the self, they can't find it.

 

It's really easy to just swap one identity for another. Before you realize it you have assumed the "i have no identity"-identity.

 

Believing in no self is also lame as fuck. Then you just end up walking around like a zombie thinking "THERE IS NO SELF"

 

What you resist, persists. If you deny something, you imply that it exists. Get it?

 

"NO SELF"

 

NO ... what?

 

In the end, this "problem" appears due to language being dualistic in nature and subject to the play of opposites.

Up - down, me - you, low - high, self - no self. Etc.

 

Therefor the ONE, the void, emptiness, the non-dual (call it what you want) cannot be put into words. Thats why thinking about any of this can't help one to realize that there is nothing to realize. Direct experience is the only thing that matters

 

Again I highly recommend reading/listening to the books of Jed McKenna since they help immensely with de-mystifying this whole deal. This is also a great website: http://theendofseeking.net/

[Enishi]

Great post Seth!!

[suninmyeyes]

Very nice post,thanks for sharing.

I am happy for you.

[gendao]

I was already very familiar with the teachings around No self, thanks to the epic postings and debates with Vaj, Xabir and CowTao here at the Bums. [thanks by the way]

AWESOME DUDE!!!

 

I have yet to experience non-duality ("depersonalization") myself - but it is definitely on my list and I guess when it happens, it happens...

 

But this is all one great reason why I really appreciate the presence and postings of all these wonderful Buddhists on this board! They've been invaluable resources for understanding and greater realization. Hip-hip-huzzahh!!!

[Seth Ananda]

Sounds great.. Nice experiences, now just beware of clinging to them.

Always go FURTHER.. never stop.. always further

RT is cool because it helps people see that when they look for the self, they can't find it.

 

It's really easy to just swap one identity for another. Before you realize it you have assumed the "i have no identity"-identity.

 

Believing in no self is also lame as fuck. Then you just end up walking around like a zombie thinking "THERE IS NO SELF"

 

What you resist, persists. If you deny something, you imply that it exists. Get it?

 

"NO SELF"

 

NO ... what?

 

In the end, this "problem" appears due to language being dualistic in nature and subject to the play of opposites.

Up - down, me - you, low - high, self - no self. Etc.

 

Therefor the ONE, the void, emptiness, the non-dual (call it what you want) cannot be put into words. Thats why thinking about any of this can't help one to realize that there is nothing to realize. Direct experience is the only thing that matters

 

Again I highly recommend reading/listening to the books of Jed McKenna since they help immensely with de-mystifying this whole deal. This is also a great website: http://theendofseeking.net/

Hehe Thanks, always go further but stop seeking hey?

Sailor bob Lives near bye, I have seen him before and am planning to again.

Fortunately the No self teaching does not leave a self or a not self to cling to. its not based on an Idea, Its just based on the fact that you can not see or experience any form of 'self' anywhere, or ever, in any way what so ever. In other words it clears the mind of a false Idea.

That leaves an expansive spacious sensation which fluctuates in Intensity, but who is there to cling to that?

 

Always going further occurs naturally, as it is natural for me to read and practice, simply because doing so was always a passion for me. I will thoroughly enjoy going as far as I can, but its no longer from a sense of striving...

 

Nargajuna is helping Immensely. I was seeing No self clearly in 'me' but he is helping me see it clearly in the phenomenal world. That being said there is that duality of words. Me and World. Its not really like that any more either...

 

I am also getting a lot out of Greg Goode, Rupert Spira, and Dzogchen and Mahamudra readings. Blessings to all these great teachers...

 

I do feel though that one has to be careful lumping all the variety of Nondual experiences together into 'one indescribable' event. There are different levels of non dual experience with differing levels of subtlety.

 

Over the next year or so I will do a massive study of Nondual teachings and states. I wish to utterly clarify my communication abilities, to be of the greatest benifit to others that I can be. Jed McKenna is on the list...

 

Thanks everyone for all the best wishes

 

P.S. AdiShakti, my name is Seth Ananda

[Vajrahridaya]

Hehe Thanks, always go further but stop seeking hey?

 

Felt that... good aspirations man.

[Informer]

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

 

So, what do you think about a soul or spirit Mr. Seth?

 

Also, how did you pretend to look at yourself and not see it?

Edited July 16, 2011 by Informer

[Informer]

No-self as absolute is not beneficial to anyone but yourself. Because then no one would have a self or anyway to show empathy. It is self serving and nihlistic.

[Vajrahridaya]

No-self as absolute is not beneficial to anyone but yourself. Because then no one would have a self or anyway to show empathy. It is self serving and nihlistic.

 

He's saying, as the teaching of Nagarjuna state, that the self is relative, not ultimate. Because the self arises relative to all else, seeing through yourself definition, you see the causes of your own psychological suffering and simultaneously the ultimate causes of all others, if not necessarily the particulars. Thus, what arises is ultimate bodhichitta, or compassion as opposed to contrived or relative bodhichitta (compassion).

 

No-self is not absolute, but neither is self.

 

It's all relative.

[Informer]

He's saying, as the teaching of Nagarjuna state, that the self is relative, not ultimate. Because the self arises relative to all else, seeing through yourself definition, you see the causes of your own psychological suffering and simultaneously the ultimate causes of all others, if not necessarily the particulars. Thus, what arises is ultimate bodhichitta, or compassion as opposed to contrived or relative bodhichitta (compassion).

 

No-self is not absolute, but neither is self.

 

It's all relative.

 

It was for seth, vaj, not for you, but thanks. Relative self does not = no-self regardless.

[Vajrahridaya]

It was for seth, vaj, not for you, but thanks. Relative self does not = no-self regardless.

 

Yes, but that's what the anatta teaching means, as he's reading Nagarjuna so what I said is a given. As, relative self, yes, ultimate self, no. So ultimately no self means relative selves are all inter-dependent without inherent self essence.

 

But, you want to see him explain it? I have many, many times... from his own fingers.

 

But, let's see! Sorry for barging in.

[Informer]

Yes, but that isn't what Ruthless Truth teaches . . .

 

Instead of discarding the objective thoughts into the void, your ejecting yourself as they teach it.

 

How could you possibley relate to another self without one of your own?

[宁]

From early childhood i could relate to my body more that to my psyche, as a Self.

This is how i perceive it now too.. the psyche is too evanescent, and it's features too prone to spontaneous changes.

 

Nowadays even the notion of a Self associated with the body is slowly fading away, as i remember myself as a child, then as a teenager.

We are the substance of change, i still didn't find any feature that i could point out as being 'my Self'.

 

 

 

these images of flocks of birds, and

 

 

fish,

 

are the my usual perception of self, sometimes the 'features' are more evident, some other times the space between them.

 

to me it feels like an important realisation and it feels like i've been born with it. the 'flock' of tendencies and features never grouped into a solid intrinsic unity; more like gathered a bit, then dispersed a bit...

 

i think my quest for discovering what exactly is the spiritual embryo is, and how is it formed/gathered/packed, is related to that, and deeply embedded into me, because of this...

 

L1

[Seth Ananda]

No-self as absolute is not beneficial to anyone but yourself. Because then no one would have a self or anyway to show empathy. It is self serving and nihlistic.

Hilarious! did you read how I said this realization is helping me feel more connected to others?

 

Feel free to call BS though

 

First I should probably explain the language I am using, so we may further understand each other.

 

When I say self, I mean the Idea that we are some actual thing, somewhere inside or encapsulating our general physical Location.

 

I at least [and I imagine most other people as well, but i'll try to speak for myself]

used to walk around believing in this 'entity' at the core of my experience. When I said 'I' it came with an inner conviction that it was coming from the real Me.

 

When asked to 'pretend' to look, {nice condescending opening to dialogue there bye the way, thank you very much, I wish I had seen what you wrote before you edited your post } I was looking at this assumption that we all hold, that there is this core to my identity. That's what I found when I looked.

 

when expressing thoughts I would say "I think" and all that that was coming from was an 'I thought' which is really just a thought, no more or less Important than any other thought.

 

My feeling nature had 'I Feelings' which were really just Feelings themselves, no more or less valuable than any other feeling.

 

I thoughts, I feelings, just thoughts and feelings.

 

Where is this mysterious self that we hang so much on, and spend so much time trying to defend? No where.

 

Even Awareness does not constitute a self. There is actually very little we can say about awareness apart from that it experiences stuff. No one has ever experienced awareness it self, and It may not even be one thing. It is possible that the Visual awareness is quite different to say our hearing awareness, and who could tell anyway? We can not separate our awareness from the experience of the senses as they arise in the various moments.

To say 'I am awareness' is really just the mind coming in with an Interpretive process to add an 'I thought' to the simple experience of awareness which is already their without needing any thought added.

 

Once I saw clearly through all this, I realized that what I had taken to be my self was really just an Internal narrative, A false story built up on 'I thoughts' and on 'I Feelings' and that all the fighting, stress, defensiveness and anxiety were just that story in action against the world.

 

The story was the only thing to disappear. All my thoughts and feelings are still their, I pay the bills, eat porridge, and relate better than ever with others - usually... As I have stated I can still have strong emotions, act like a dick and so on, but that stuff is far less as it is no longer held together by that false Idea.

 

We are really just processes of the Universe, all arising together, streams of experience and awareness, with no real Underlying nature.

 

We are totally interchangeable, Interdependent with each other and the universe and all in this together.

 

In the general locale or Gamut of our Body/mind/hearts we feel, Love, get hurt, long for happiness and an end to suffering, and when the story of being some solid unchanging or 'Real' thing ends, we come closer to this.

 

That False Idea of being a Self, is the underlying Matrix for Suffering.

 

See that this strange alleged self, is actually Impossible to find anywhere within you, and then realize that it is not only just Impossible to find, but you have never had the tiniest scrap of evidence that it is their or real in your entire existence!

 

It has never been seen, experienced, felt or interacted with in any way, ever.

 

What does that tell you? You should be starting to get very suspicious by this point about it's 'alleged' existence.

 

Great Blessings on your path - what ever it is.

[Jetsun]

"There is nothing to be found that is the 'I', but this fact does not imply that the 'I' does not exist. How could it? That would be silly. The 'I' definitely does exist"

- Dalai Lama - How to see yourself as you really are