'No self' my experience so far...

[Lucky7Strikes]

Infinite allows for infinite finites which are also individually infinite in the sense that they continue the story through inter-causation, due to their quality of emptiness.

Sounds good, the simultaneity of finite in the infinite, and finite potentially also infinite.

 

 

I agree with this, but perhaps a little differently than you do.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[thuscomeone]

thusness doesn't know everything, xabir. Neither do you, even if you think you do.

 

Hell, thusness doesn't even seem to know what a concept is and isn't. Neither do you.

 

I saw your recent post on dharmawheel when namdrol told you that the two truths aren't true. What do you think that means, xabir?

Edited August 6, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Lucky7Strikes]

I think this explains better:

 

(Mahasi Sayadaw)

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Mahasi%20Sayadaw

 

Before a drum is beaten, its sound does not exist in the drum itself, the drumstick, or anywhere in between. Even though a sound occurs when the drum is beat, the sound does not originate from the drum or the drumstick. The physical phenomena of drum and drumstick are not transformed into a sound nor does the sound originate from anywhere in between drum and drumstick. In dependence on the drum, the drumstick, and the hitting of the drum, the sound is a completely new phenomenon each time the drum is hit. The drum and the stick are different from the sound...

Ok..governed by those causalities. The arising of that particular sound is determined by the combination of those conditions. I don't see how this changes anything.

 

Let me just summarize this again:

 

Everything dependently originates due to causes and conditions.

 

So understanding that things are empty and nothing is graspable, experience becomes just arising and ceasing moment to moment.

 

Sense of will or individual control or doing is an illusion.

[xabir2005]

Ok: you are an impersonal process of the universe. But the way you feel that is not "out there," but intimate. As spontaneous arising.

 

 

If we only have present memory, why do you remember yesterday? Or the day before. Or more than two moments?

The imprints carried on by the mindstream.

[xabir2005]

thusness doesn't know everything, xabir. Neither do you, even if you think you do.

 

Hell, thusness doesn't even seem to know what a concept is and isn't. Neither do you.

 

I saw your recent post on dharmawheel when namdrol told you that the two truths aren't true. What do you think that means, xabir?

Empty, thus not true.

 

There is nothing relative that can be pinned down as a truth.

Edited August 6, 2011 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

The imprints carried on by the mindstream.

Huh? Is that mindstream continuous or is it also disjointed moments?

[thuscomeone]

Empty, thus not true.

 

There is nothing relative that can be pinned down as a truth.

So is emptiness truth? Is dependent arising truth?

 

Nope, wrong. It means that the state of rigpa is beyond concepts, including "emptiness" and "dependent arising."

Edited August 6, 2011 by thuscomeone

[xabir2005]

Ok..governed by those causalities. The arising of that particular sound is determined by the combination of those conditions. I don't see how this changes anything.

 

Let me just summarize this again:

 

Everything dependently originates due to causes and conditions.

 

So understanding that things are empty and nothing is graspable, experience becomes just arising and ceasing moment to moment.

 

Sense of will or individual control or doing is an illusion.

Yes but... 'experience becomes just arising moment to moment' is the experience even at anatta phase.

 

The realization 'that things are empty and nothing is ungraspable' further sees these arising as non-arising, empty, unlocatable and ungraspable.... being like an illusion, a mirage, a dream, a magical apparition.

[xabir2005]

So is emptiness truth? Is dependent arising truth?

There is no emptiness. There is no dependent arising. Just as there is no eyes, ears, tongue, etc... (heart sutra)

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yes but... 'experience becomes just arising moment to moment' is the experience even at anatta phase.

 

The realization 'that things are empty and nothing is ungraspable' further sees these arising as non-arising, empty, unlocatable and ungraspable.... being like an illusion, a mirage, a dream, a magical apparition.

Have fun living as a moment to moment mirage.

 

Just rolling along! Governed by causes!

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[thuscomeone]

There is no emptiness. There is no dependent arising. Just as there is no eyes, ears, tongue, etc... (heart sutra)

But is this so only because things are empty and dependently arisen?

[xabir2005]

But is this so only because things are empty and dependently arisen?

Yes there is no independent essence whatsoever.... just the magic of empty-luminosity, the shapes, colours, taste, etc, but nothing solid anywhere. Edited August 6, 2011 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Huh? Is that mindstream continuous or is it also disjointed moments?

Causal continuity of a process, not the passing on of an entity.

 

 

"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"

 

"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."

 

"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical

combination as this present one?"

 

"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces

kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and

through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be

born."

[Lucky7Strikes]

Causal continuity of a process, not the passing on of an entity.

 

 

"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"

 

"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."

 

"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical

combination as this present one?"

 

"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces

kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and

through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be

born."

I'm sorry, I no longer feel it necessary to engage in a conversation with someone who believes he is a mirage.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[thuscomeone]

Yes there is no independent essence whatsoever.... just the magic of luminous emptiness, the shapes, colours, taste, etc, but nothing solid anywhere.

Let me explain this to you in the context of suffering. When you are attempting to realize dependent arising or emptiness, you are trying to get somewhere. You are trying to get away from ignorance and towards knowledge. But ignorance and knowledge, aka dependent arising and independence, are just concepts. They don't exist in actuality. So when you want to go from ignorance to knowledge, or from pain to pleasure, that is the root of suffering. That gap which is created by attaching to concepts. In that gap is all fear, stress, etc. In that gap is also "rebirth." In that gap is also time. Without the gap there is no time. This is why it is so important to distinguish sems from rigpa in dzogchen. You are caught in sems (conceptual mind).

 

This is much much deeper than what you think I mean by non-conceptuality.

Edited August 6, 2011 by thuscomeone

[xabir2005]

I'm sorry, I no longer feel it necessary to engage in a conversation with someone who believe he is a mirage.

[C T]

Just to stress home a point:

 

Both sutric and tantric traditions have the same goal of final enlightenment, the state of fully perfected enlightenment. (However the tantra) is distinctive for superior means of attaining (that goal). They are the superiority of view free from ignorance, the superiority of meditation with many skillful means, the superiority of activities of no hardship, and the person of sharp intellect...

 

The Characteristic Causation (sutric) Yana ascertains that (i) the ultimate nature, the absolute truth (is) free from elaborations of eight extremes, but it does not realize the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, as it is. (Tantra,) having dispelled (that ignorance), realizes the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom - so tantra is not ignorant of the view of the ultimate nature. (ii) The Characteristic Causation Yana ascertains phenomena, the things of relative truth, as the nature of interdependent arising like a magical apparition (maya), but it is ignorant because of not yet having ascertained phenomena as the Buddha-bodies and primordial wisdoms, (but having ascertained them as just) impure like magical apparitions. Vajrayana tantra ascertains (that all are): the play of the Buddha-bodies and primordial wisdoms, the meaning of non-duality of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, the non-duality of the two truths and the supreme ultimate body. So tantra is superior in being free from ignorance.

 

The contemplations of tantra is superior because of two stages: the skillful means of the development stage and the wisdom of the perfection stage. In the Characteristic Causation Yana there is no path to attain enlightenment which does not abandon the object of desire, whereas in tantra, having taken the object of desire, without abandoning, as the path (of training) which protects the mind-consciousness easily and blissfully, one becomes able to attain the state of Vajradhara in this very lifetime with this single body. - - Pema Ledrel Tsal

 

 

Also, this, from Nagarjuna:

 

"We state that whatever is dependent arising, that is emptiness.

This is dependent upon convention.

That itself is the middle path."

 

Dependent arising explains all the aspects of the relative world, for it details the process of causation, hence the ontology of the world.

 

Emptiness is the only possible description of ultimate truth, for it demonstrates relativity and provides a sort of anti-theory on which the rational faculty can focus.

 

"The whole of Nagarjuna's philosophy is dependent on convention, for it all presupposes the perception of everyday things and their phenomenal reality. It is vital that one following his philosophy understand that it, every bit as much as the things it describes, is relative. Dependent Arising and Emptiness are relative to each other, and both are relative to the perceived world. They thus constitute the middle path. One must remember Dependent Arising would be no more proper a description of ultimate truth than Emptiness, and vice versa, else either materialism or nihilism would result. Likewise, one must find a middle ground between theorizing, and refraining from doing so, as demonstrated by the Buddha on certain occasions." (anonymous comment)

 

 

 

From the Visudhimagga:

 

Misery only does exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; Nothing save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.

Edited August 6, 2011 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

I'm sorry, I no longer feel it necessary to engage in a conversation with someone who believe he is a mirage.

 

Hehehe. He really is. He is just kinda' hiding.

 

He is still the same person he was before his revelation. He just refuses that what was really existed so he has created himself in his own new image. Doesn't change anything.

[xabir2005]

Let me explain this to you in the context of suffering. When you are attempting to realize dependent arising or emptiness, you are trying to get somewhere. You are trying to get away from ignorance and towards knowledge. But ignorance and knowledge, aka dependent arising and independence, are just concepts. They don't exist in actuality. So when you want to go from ignorance to knowledge, or from pain to pleasure, that is the root of suffering. That gap which is created by attaching to concepts. In that gap is all fear, stress, etc. In that gap is also "rebirth." In that gap is also time. Without the gap there is no time.

 

This is much much deeper than what you think I mean by non-conceptual.

There is no ignorance and no knowledge.... I am not bonded by such notions. I'm freed from such views and clingings and the magic of empty luminosity simply shimmers and self-liberates

 

Ultimately there is no birth, much less rebirth, however, as Namdrol states:

 

"If you suffer from delusion, then you are still beholden to the two truths. It is inescapable.

 

There is a very big difference between how Dzogchen deals with illusion and the lower vehicles. Nevertheless, call it illusion or call it "relative truth" that is still the plane upon which rebirth occurs. This is why your elevation of this discussion to such heights misses the mark.

 

...

 

There is no rebirth in reality -- this is why your addition misses the mark of the conversation.

 

The two truths are not for buddhas, incidentally, they are for sentient beings."

Edited August 6, 2011 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

Ah OK!

 

So you agree with this too. Will is determined.

 

Can we just agree on this that you and Xabir do not believe in free will, but determined will?

 

Well, when your awareness is free, your "will" stops referencing what it used to reference... so, your concept and experience of "will power" itself deepens as the depth of your direct realization of emptiness deepens as it's salve is applied to deeper aspects of ones consciousness.

[Vajrahridaya]

Just to stress home a point:

 

Both sutric and tantric traditions have the same goal of final enlightenment, the state of fully perfected enlightenment. (However the tantra) is distinctive for superior means of attaining (that goal). They are the superiority of view free from ignorance, the superiority of meditation with many skillful means, the superiority of activities of no hardship, and the person of sharp intellect...

 

The Characteristic Causation (sutric) Yana ascertains that (a) the ultimate nature, the absolute truth (is) free from elaborations of eight extremes, but it does not realize the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, as it is. (Tantra,) having dispelled (that ignorance), realizes the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom - so tantra is not ignorant of the view of the ultimate nature. ( The Characteristic Causation Yana ascertains phenomena, the things of relative truth, as the nature of interdependent arising like a magical apparition (maya), but it is ignorant because of not yet having ascertained phenomena as the Buddha-bodies and primordial wisdoms, (but having ascertained them as just) impure like magical apparitions. Vajrayana tantra ascertains (that all are): the play of the Buddha-bodies and primordial wisdoms, the meaning of non-duality of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, the non-duality of the two truths and the supreme ultimate body. So tantra is superior in being free from ignorance.

 

The contemplations of tantra is superior because of two stages: the skillful means of the development stage and the wisdom of the perfection stage. In the Characteristic Causation Yana there is no path to attain enlightenment which does not abandon the object of desire, whereas in tantra, having taken the object of desire, without abandoning, as the path (of training) which protects the mind-consciousness easily and blissfully, one becomes able to attain the state of Vajradhara in this very lifetime with this single body. - - Pema Ledrel Tsal

 

 

Also, this, from Nagarjuna:

 

"We state that whatever is dependent arising, that is emptiness.

This is dependent upon convention.

That itself is the middle path."

 

Dependent arising explains all the aspects of the relative world, for it details the process of causation, hence the ontology of the world.

 

Emptiness is the only possible description of ultimate truth, for it demonstrates relativity and provides a sort of anti-theory on which the rational faculty can focus.

 

"The whole of Nagarjuna's philosophy is dependent on convention, for it all presupposes the perception of everyday things and their phenomenal reality. It is vital that one following his philosophy understand that it, every bit as much as the things it describes, is relative. Dependent Arising and Emptiness are relative to each other, and both are relative to the perceived world. They thus constitute the middle path. One must remember Dependent Arising would be no more proper a description of ultimate truth than Emptiness, and vice versa, else either materialism or nihilism would result. Likewise, one must find a middle ground between theorizing, and refraining from doing so, as demonstrated by the Buddha on certain occasions." (anonymous comment)

 

 

 

From the Visudhimagga:

 

Misery only does exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; Nothing save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.

 

Tashi delegs and gasho's!

[thuscomeone]

Just to stress home a point:

 

Both sutric and tantric traditions have the same goal of final enlightenment, the state of fully perfected enlightenment. (However the tantra) is distinctive for superior means of attaining (that goal). They are the superiority of view free from ignorance, the superiority of meditation with many skillful means, the superiority of activities of no hardship, and the person of sharp intellect...

 

The Characteristic Causation (sutric) Yana ascertains that (a) the ultimate nature, the absolute truth (is) free from elaborations of eight extremes, but it does not realize the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, as it is. (Tantra,) having dispelled (that ignorance), realizes the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom - so tantra is not ignorant of the view of the ultimate nature. ( The Characteristic Causation Yana ascertains phenomena, the things of relative truth, as the nature of interdependent arising like a magical apparition (maya), but it is ignorant because of not yet having ascertained phenomena as the Buddha-bodies and primordial wisdoms, (but having ascertained them as just) impure like magical apparitions. Vajrayana tantra ascertains (that all are): the play of the Buddha-bodies and primordial wisdoms, the meaning of non-duality of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, the non-duality of the two truths and the supreme ultimate body. So tantra is superior in being free from ignorance.

 

The contemplations of tantra is superior because of two stages: the skillful means of the development stage and the wisdom of the perfection stage. In the Characteristic Causation Yana there is no path to attain enlightenment which does not abandon the object of desire, whereas in tantra, having taken the object of desire, without abandoning, as the path (of training) which protects the mind-consciousness easily and blissfully, one becomes able to attain the state of Vajradhara in this very lifetime with this single body. - - Pema Ledrel Tsal

 

 

Also, this, from Nagarjuna:

 

"We state that whatever is dependent arising, that is emptiness.

This is dependent upon convention.

That itself is the middle path."

 

Dependent arising explains all the aspects of the relative world, for it details the process of causation, hence the ontology of the world.

 

Emptiness is the only possible description of ultimate truth, for it demonstrates relativity and provides a sort of anti-theory on which the rational faculty can focus.

 

"The whole of Nagarjuna's philosophy is dependent on convention, for it all presupposes the perception of everyday things and their phenomenal reality. It is vital that one following his philosophy understand that it, every bit as much as the things it describes, is relative. Dependent Arising and Emptiness are relative to each other, and both are relative to the perceived world. They thus constitute the middle path. One must remember Dependent Arising would be no more proper a description of ultimate truth than Emptiness, and vice versa, else either materialism or nihilism would result. Likewise, one must find a middle ground between theorizing, and refraining from doing so, as demonstrated by the Buddha on certain occasions." (anonymous comment)

 

 

 

From the Visudhimagga:

 

Misery only does exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; Nothing save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.

Way too many words. Better to just demonstrate it.

[Lucky7Strikes]

@ Xabir,

 

Hey, um mister mirage...uh, ok to see what dependently originate out of you now, I want to ask.

 

Do you feel genuine love and compassion. Did that experience arise in your, um, d.o. machine? NOt intellectually or conceptually. Do you feel a sense of love radiating out? Be honest. Well, I don't know if you can, because you don't have a will. But hopefully something honest dependently originates.

[C T]

Way too many words. Better to just demonstrate it.

Not wanting to sound ass-like, but word for word count, between mine and yours in this thread, you are still waay ahead.

[thuscomeone]

Not wanting to sound ass-like, but word for word count, between mine and yours in this thread, you are still waay ahead.

Sure. But I'm pointing to something which is beyond words. You, like xabir, no offense, are just pointing toward more words.

Edited August 6, 2011 by thuscomeone