'No self' my experience so far...

[xabir2005]

Emptiness does liberate. As skillful means. Never said it doesn't. But you don't really know what emptiness means/what it is pointing to.

I do, and I have explained what emptiness means.

 

I'll just dig up some old quotes:

 

 

"At base, the main fetter of self-grasping is predicated upon naive reification of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is what allows us to see into the non-arising nature of dependently originated phenomena, i.e. the self-nature of our aggregates. Thus, right view is the direct seeing, in meditative equipoise, of this this non-arising nature of all phenomena. As such, it is not a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it is rather a wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly perceive the world in the following way in Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana:

 

"Form is similar to a foam,

Feeling is like water bubbles,

Ideation is equivalent with a mirage,

Formations are similar with a banana tree,

Consciousness is like an illusion."

 

...

 

"In other words, right view is the beginning of the noble path. It is certainly the case that dependent origination is "correct view"; when one analyzes a bit deeper, one discovers that in the case "view" means being free from views. The teaching of dependent origination is what permits this freedom from views. The teaching of dependent origination is what permits this freedom from views."

 

~ Loppon Namdrol

 

 

..........

 

 

"Generally speaking, there are two forms of meditation on emptiness. One is the space-like meditation on emptiness, which is characterised by the total absence or negation of inherent existence. The other is called the illusion-like meditation on emptiness. The space-like meditation must come first, because without the realisation of the total absence of inherent existence, the illusion-like perception or understanding will not occur.

 

For the illusion-like understanding of all phenomena to occur, there needs to be a composite of both the perception or appearance and the negation, so that when we perceive the world and engage with it we can view all things and events as resembling illusions. We will recognise that although things appear to us, they are devoid of objective, independent, intrinsic existence. This is how the illusion-like understanding arises. The author of the Eight Verses indicates the experiential result when he writes: 'May I, recognising all things as illusions, devoid of clinging, be released from bondage.'"

 

~ His Holiness the Dalai Lama

 

 

--------------

 

"E ma, the phenomena of the three realms

of samsara,

While not existing, they appear –

how incredibly amazing!"

 

~ Milarepa

 

----------------

 

 

Simple jack said here http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/06/unborn-dharma.html :

 

I would usually sum up what's being said in this entry like this: Each moment is interdependently originated and inherently empty. Awareness and it's "knowing" aspect is also interdependently originated and inherently empty.

 

At this phase there is no longer any association with an absolute arising, abiding, or cessation of "self" and phenomena. So each moment that arises according to causes and conditions, is self-perfected. The extremes of subject/object, self/other, existence/non-existence, etc. at this phase give way spontaneously to the "middle way;" because there is no longer an association with an absolute arising, abiding, or cessation of "self" and phenomena at this phase.

 

Due to having insight into the unborn dharma: "By perceiving the unreality of phenomena, they brought about the cessation of the outflowing sensory consciousness. Because they cognized the unreality of their psychosomatic aggregates and the interacting conditions of the three planes of cosmic existence as originating from their deluded mind, they saw external and internal phenomena as devoid of any inherent nature and as transcending all concepts."

 

What's your experience with the last paragraph?

 

-SJ

 

 

I replied: Hi,

 

Everything is ungraspable, unlocatable, un-pinnable as a solid entity...

 

Like weather, you can't say 'weather is located there' - weather is really not findable as an entity.

 

Since there is no 'the weather' as such, you cannot say the entity 'the weather' is existing somewhere, or that 'the weather' is non-existent, since both claims predicate an existent entity.

 

So 'it is', 'it is not', the four extremes, concepts about a substantial entity, as well as concepts about its birth, abiding, cessation, simply do not apply to all external and internal phenomena, which are simply an empty cognizance vividly shining yet located nowhere... transcending all concepts... just a magical, shimmering, luminous and empty mirage. i.e. The mirage of an island off shore on a sunny day looks there, but there is no core that can be found or located - similarly all experiences are apparent yet coreless, beyond concepts like 'it is there' and 'it is not there', it is unfathomable (since you cannot fathom a true existent entity 'there').

 

Since everything is an empty cognizance, there is nothing out there, or in here, or anywhere in between, therefore the cessation of the 'outflowing sensory consciousness' (I take it to mean projecting a solid world out of empty perceptions).

 

The deluded mind is what projects inherent nature to the aggregates and the interacting conditions.

 

Since all that dependently originates are like magical appearances, without a real place of origin, abidance, and destination, there is no true interaction of different entities - and therefore seeing from the perspective of this natural state of interconnectedness, all is self originated. What's your experience with it?

 

......

 

Haha... just saw that you wrote about your previous paragraphs. (I read backwards)

 

Not very different from what I said.

Edited August 6, 2011 by xabir2005

[thuscomeone]

LOL! There's no beyond what is already beyond.

 

As the Buddha said,

 

"Dependent Origination is the all, and to see dependent origination is to see me."

 

You are reifying some experience. Are you not?

Not reifying anything. Not saying there is something or nothing. Saying that there is obvious presence, but that presence isn't a "thing." It can't be described.

 

To truly see dependent arising is to see that dependent arising is just mere words. Not truth. That is what d.o. points to.

Edited August 6, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Vajrahridaya]

I didn't feel unconditional love. I felt unconditional compassion for anyone I met and immediately knew what to say and what not to. I could barely face certain people who were open energetically because my heart would send my entire body into uncontrollable bliss. I would stop speaking in mid sentence because my heart was literally captivating my body. I could barely meditate during that period of about ten days because I would pass out in spontaneous prayers. It didn't reference anything.

 

The deeper and deeper I went, the more awake I became, I didn't know I could be that awake, and that awakefulness was coupled with an incredible sense of creativity and love. It wasn't a trance state because my body was breathing and responding to everything differently.

 

I went through this in 95-96 until about 98? In various fits and depths. Oh and again in 2000.

 

I know exactly what you're talking about... sometimes it felt like everyone, everywhere was already fully enlightened and were all jokingly waiting for me to get it! I mean everywhere too... from Oakland to Kansas City, to the subways and streets of NYC.

 

Very awesome.

 

Someone said I was just living from the enlightened potential within everyone and everything without recognizing the reality of things as they, "are." At least during those times... like I said, there were depths and phases of intensity and strangenesses. During this time, I most definitely reified enlightened awareness as ultimate in and of itself without concept..

 

EDIT: I wrote tons of poetry at this time too.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Not reifying anything. Not saying there is something or nothing. Saying that there is obvious presence, but that presence isn't a "thing." It can't be described.

 

To truly see dependent arising is to see that dependent arising is just more words. That is what d.o. points to

 

Eh...

 

d.o. is not merely words brother. Otherwise it wouldn't have been the Buddhas realization which happened after mastering the jhana of neither perception nor non-perception. This shows that d.o. is far from merely words, which is only the case in the beginning.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Lucky7Strikes]

I do not want to reify my experience, but also do not want to discount them. The quality of it was much different than any trance states, certainty of presence, or contemplation. (Haha! I remember I would sit and all these ideas would just pop up in my head about texts like the secrets of the golden flower or tantric practices and I drew these diagrams for my roommate and started reading people's personalities. I also tested my body by drinking, which I normally cannot do since my body does not take it well, to see if I could consciously detoxify it). It felt very much like it was the way reality was supposed to be experienced.

 

I posted a thread on the bums when this was happening and people thought I was going nuts. Anyways, those experiences and recent contemplation on awareness and mind, have really changed my perspectives on your path, just to let you know.

[Vajrahridaya]

I do not want to reify my experience, but also do not want to discount them. The quality of it was much different than any trance states, certainty of presence, or contemplation. (Haha! I remember I would sit and all these ideas would just pop up in my head about texts like the secrets of the golden flower or tantric practices and I drew these diagrams for my roommate and started reading people's personalities. I also tested my body by drinking, which I normally cannot do since my body does not take it well, to see if I could consciously detoxify it). It felt very much like it was the way reality was supposed to be experienced.

 

I posted a thread on the bums when this was happening and people thought I was going nuts. Anyways, those experiences and recent contemplation on awareness and mind, have really changed my perspectives on your path, just to let you know.

 

Oh yeah... I remember the "going nuts" reactions. I'd get that as well... both with people in person as well as online. I seem to remember something along the lines of that with you as well sometime ago?

 

Thanks so much for sharing L7S. Good stuff, most definitely that type of stuff that transforms ones state of self reference forever!

[xabir2005]

[Lucky7Strikes]

 

I went through this in 95-96 until about 98? In various fits and depths. Oh and again in 2000.

 

I know exactly what you're talking about... sometimes it felt like everyone, everywhere was already fully enlightened and were all jokingly waiting for me to get it! I mean everywhere too... from Oakland to Kansas City, to the subways and streets of NYC.

 

Very awesome.

 

Someone said I was just living from the enlightened potential within everyone and everything without recognizing the reality of things as they, "are." At least during those times... like I said, there were depths and phases of intensity and strangenesses. During this time, I most definitely reified enlightened awareness as ultimate in and of itself without concept..

 

EDIT: I wrote tons of poetry at this time too.

Very very strange, like someone just lifted the veils off everything. Another strange occurance happened during that period. My room in the city does not get direct sunlight because its shadowed by the buildings next door. But in front of my meditation chair during that period a bright circle of sunlight just appeared and reflected at the other side of the room! It didn't come from the outside because the sun never reached that part, and it wasn't a ray but just this circle....

[Lucky7Strikes]

Oh yeah... I remember the "going nuts" reactions. I'd get that as well... both with people in person as well as online. I seem to remember something along the lines of that with you as well sometime ago?

 

Thanks so much for sharing L7S. Good stuff, most definitely that type of stuff that transforms ones state of self reference forever!

I deleted all that stuff to avoid Kunlun questions. .

[Vajrahridaya]

Very very strange, like someone just lifted the veils off everything. Another strange occurance happened during that period. My room in the city does not get direct sunlight because its shadowed by the buildings next door. But in front of my meditation chair during that period a bright circle of sunlight just appeared and reflected at the other side of the room! It didn't come from the outside because the sun never reached that part, and it wasn't a ray but just this circle....

 

Yes, I'm not shocked or surprised... enjoyed... yes! I have journals and journals of such strange occurrences that are somewhat unexplainable in the normal sense of explanation.

 

Oh blessed. So joyous!

 

Mahro Pranams bro.. tearfully.

 

Good stuff... good, good.

[Vajrahridaya]

I deleted all that stuff to avoid Kunlun questions. .

 

I don't know much about kunlun.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I don't know much about kunlun.

It was a whole fiasco here at the bums before you registered about Max who apparently is one of the first westerners to attain the rainbow body that is returnable. I think he is an ordained lama in the Nyingma tradition, but he also teaches shamanism and Egyptian practices.

 

And people started seeing lizard beings...and all the talk about alien races. :lol:

 

Max's stuff is incredible. You should check it out:

 

primordialalchemist.com

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

It was a whole fiasco here at the bums before you registered about Max who apparently is one of the first westerners to attain the rainbow body that is returnable. I think he is an ordained lama in the Nyingma tradition, but he also teaches shamanism and Egyptian practices.

 

And people started seeing lizard beings...and all the talk about alien races. :lol:

 

Max's stuff is incredible. You should check it out:

 

primordialalchemist.com

hmmm... interesting. I'll have to give it a deeper look see.

[thuscomeone]

Eh...

 

d.o. is not merely words brother. Otherwise it wouldn't have been the Buddhas realization which happened after mastering the jhana of neither perception nor non-perception. This shows that d.o. is far from merely words, which is only the case in the beginning.

I am hesitant at this point to speak about what the Buddha taught or didn't teach. It's dangerous territory to depend for your truth on what the Buddha or anyone else may or may not have said. I only speak from my own experience.

 

d.o. is a finger pointing to a truth which doesn't depend on d.o. You are desperately clinging to d.o. and can't see past it, even if you won't admit it. In a sense, you are more concerned with talking about d.o. than being, actually living as, what d.o. points to. If it were the latter, you would see that "d.o" has no bearing on what actually is and you wouldn't cling to it.

 

You don't understand "emptiness is form."

 

How can the eye see itself?

 

You think you know the freedom of suchness, but you have no idea.

Edited August 7, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Vajrahridaya]

I am hesitant at this point to speak about what the Buddha taught or didn't teach. It's dangerous territory to depend for your truth on what the Buddha or anyone else may or may not have said. I only speak from my own experience.

 

d.o. is a finger pointing to a truth which doesn't depend on d.o. You are desperately clinging to d.o. and can't see past it, even if you won't admit it. In a sense, you are more concerned with talking about d.o. than being, actually living as, what d.o. points to. If it were the latter, you would see that "d.o" has no bearing on what actually is and you wouldn't cling to it.

 

You don't understand "emptiness is form."

 

How can the eye see itself?

 

You think you know the freedom of suchness, but you have no idea.

 

It's interesting how people can contextualize a persons entire life through their subjective interpretation of some words on here.

 

Another example of ignorant d.o.

 

p.s. Also... when on here did I state that I was a Mahasiddha? You presume way too much, just stick to debating semantics.

 

By the way... if d.o. is already empty and unborn to begin with, who is there to grasp and what is there to grasp at?

Edited August 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

Edited August 8, 2011 by Sunya

[Informer]

Vaj, would you say there is no soul?

[Marblehead]

Vaj, would you say there is no soul?

 

There is soul music so there has to be soul.

 

I'm sure that didn't help but life is that way sometimes.

[Sunya]

Vaj, would you say there is no soul?

 

That word means different things to different people. Can you define what soul means to you?

[Informer]

That word means different things to different people. Can you define what soul means to you?

 

That it is not for me to determine with certainty. It is not an objective question but a subjective one.

 

(Feel free to answer with an opinion.)

Edited August 8, 2011 by Informer

[Sunya]

That it is not for me to determine with certainty. It is not an objective question but a subjective one.

 

(Feel free to answer with an opinion.)

 

If you're asking someone if they believe in a soul but do not clarify what you mean by soul, then it's a rather silly question. Do you believe in gobblegook? Just give me your opinion.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Sunya

[Informer]

If you're asking someone if they believe in a soul but do not clarify what you mean by soul, then it's a rather silly question. Do you believe in gobblegook? Just give me your opinion.

 

It seems you are stuck in objectivity, have fun there

[Sunya]

It seems you are stuck in objectivity, have fun there

 

You're not that stupid, are you? If I ask you if you believe in gobblegook but don't tell you what I mean, what's the point of asking? It has nothing to do with 'objectivity.' We use language as symbols, and if you don't clarify the meaning of a symbol (your own personal meaning), then it's quite pointless to even bother having a conversation. Now, are you here to just screw with people or are you actually interested in having a conversation? Stop pretending to be a fool just to get a reaction out of people.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Sunya

[Informer]

You're not that stupid, are you? If I ask you if you believe in gobblegook but don't tell you what I mean, what's the point of asking? It has nothing to do with 'objectivity.' We use language as symbols, and if you don't clarify the meaning of a symbol (your own personal meaning), then it's quite pointless to even bother having a conversation. Now, are you here to just screw with people or are you actually interested in having a conversation? Stop pretending to be a fool just to get a reaction out of people.

 

I didn't ask you anything now go away.

[Sunya]

I didn't ask you anything now go away.

 

Actually you said "Feel free to answer with an opinion" in response to me. Why are you acting like a child?