'No self' my experience so far...

[C T]

Yes, completely valid. There is obviously a self. I am posting this right now to reach out to someone else. How can I say there is no self when obviously I'm doing something to please my self.

 

I guess the 'self' eastern religions try to no self with is the sense of self that feels violated when someone inflicts pain on it, that feels being stolen from when someone steal things we have claimed possession of, that feels little when someone think attribute negative qualities to it.

 

The self we hold in our head that believes it has tangible qualities like generous, kind, smart, caring.

 

A self that has a story behind it that is totally subjective and serves to romanticize its life and selectively chooses experiences that embellishes its history.

 

Not no self as in this body is not real, it's an illusion but no self as in there's no self apart from this body. The self who we think is kind, smart, caring, gentle, hardworking, righteous, better than the average bear is a concept and mechanism for survival that has crystallized so much we think is the true self that exists apart from the body.

 

All I've written are just intellectual diarrhea of mine, not rooted in realizations. If it sounds stupid to you, it probably is.

 

 

Yup. (except for the last line of course)

Edited July 17, 2011 by CowTao

[Mahberry]

Yup. (except for the last line of course)

But that would mean I just fall right back into Otis's first assumption.

 

This body is the self.

 

I guess this no self thing is an altered state of consciousness that removes the self so our thoughts operate without a referencing point?

 

Do you stay in no self all day long, CowTao? Is it a better mode of living than self-ing?

Edited July 17, 2011 by Mahberry

[Vajrahridaya]

But that would mean I just fall right back into Otis's first assumption.

 

This body is the self.

 

I guess this no self thing is an altered state of consciousness that removes the self so our thoughts operate without a referencing point?

 

Do you stay in no self all day long, CowTao?

 

Or referencing without clinging to it as ultimate, but merely many instances of "relative self" manifesting cosmic potential.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

But that would mean I just fall right back into Otis's first assumption.

 

This body is the self.

 

I guess this no self thing is an altered state of consciousness that removes the self so our thoughts operate without a referencing point?

 

Do you stay in no self all day long, CowTao? Is it a better mode of living than self-ing?

Well, Otis referenced body with self, which is only partly accurate.

 

And no, i do not. If there is no self, who stays? Who goes?

 

What do you call a being who neither comes from anywhere nor is going/gone anywhere?

[Informer]

Hmm, I am not sure I agree. The Absolute has an experience level to it as well, otherwise it would be completely meaningless and irrelevant.

 

If you clearly see the nature of things, such as empty and dependently originating, do you really believe that your experience wont change?

 

Seeing Anatta means seeing one's nature as selfless. That's what No self means.

 

I can effortlessly see now the truth of no self. That's Absolute, as I understand it.

The relative is that i am still a person, who answers to my name...

 

Yeah dude, that's where you screwed up. There is no way for a spirit or soul to exist as a true or alternate self.

 

 

It's not a realization that you are thinking you had, more along the lines of self-hypnosis/psychosis with a twist of the Placebo Effect.

 

It sounds like you are trying to impress your hypnostist and promote the brainwashing/cultism futher. Maybe I'm off, but perhaps you should continue along your spiritual path and develope true understanding before promoting RT. After all, it has only been 30 days.

 

There are many people that whole-heartedly believe exactly what you say and began trying to convert others right-away, only later to realize how wrong they were in the absoluteness. There have been dozens of people in your same situation, and have still managed to overcome the hypnosis. Will you? Not if you blindly accept and attempt to convince yourself that it is true.

 

Feels like you are trying to impress people with your "realization", although I am far from impressed.

 

I hope you answer the boiling question and say how what your no-self belief relates to a spirit or soul.

 

If you don't exist in any sense, don't you see the impossibility of being a spiritual/enlightened/supreme being? Or anything other than nothing for that matter.

[Seth Ananda]

Yeah dude, that's where you screwed up. There is no way for a spirit or soul to exist as a true self.

 

Well thank you for the twist of comedy you add to this thread.

Your bitter are you not. Things not going your way somewhere? You like to get mean. In your first post you attempt to belittle me by saying I only 'pretend' to look, discounting my many many years of intensive searching, and the utterly high standards I hold myself to with a mere wipe of your hand... Fair enough.

 

then you say this:

 

It's not a realization that you are thinking you had, more along the lines of self-hypnosis/psychosis with a twist of the Placebo Effect.

 

Why what a stunning diagnosis! Thank you! I feel so much better now.

 

Does my realization make you feel Uncomfortable? Is it because it could be true? Is something squirming around inside of you, repeating 'I exist' 'attack attack' 'I exist'...?

 

Is this why you feel the need to bring my sanity into question? Thats really low by the way. If you cant beat me logically {as you have shown} you resort to cheap crowd tactics... Look everyone he is Nuts! A real Loony!

 

It sounds like you are trying to impress your hypnostist and promote the brainwashing/cultism futher. Maybe I'm off, but perhaps you should continue along your spiritual path and develope true understanding before promoting RT. After all, it has only been 30 days.

 

Sounds like to whom? Once again I am only vaguely promoting RT. What I am promoting is the study of Anatta. I have been struggling with Anatta for the last few years, thanks to the fellow bums here, and Rt helped me get it properly, so yes I am grateful [thanks Ruthless Truth] but go re read my RT misgivings post. and my piece in the how to start a cult thread if you must. Anatta is an amazing teaching, and thats what I wish to encourage. But I think there are many people RT would not be good for.

 

There are many people that whole-heartedly believe exactly what you say and began trying to convert others right-away, only later to realize how wrong they were in the absoluteness. There have been dozens of people in your same situation, and have still managed to overcome the hypnosis. Will you? Not if you blindly accept and attempt to convince yourself that it is true.

 

I do not believe it. I see it. Clear as day. Maybe I was lucky. I went to RT already extremely well versed in Anatta philosophy. I did not spend long there. I did not get ground down into some submissive pulp, desperate to please and to agree. Youll find the amazing conversation over at RT under 'Hit me Bitches!' in the pit forum. There you can watch them crush all the free will and independence out of me. lol.

 

Feels like you are trying to impress people with your "realization", although I am far from impressed.

 

Wow, you really are desperate to put me down. There is that mean streak again!

Poor boy, why you feel that way?

 

I hope you answer the boiling question and say how what your no-self belief relates to a spirit or soul.

 

I already did. back a bit.

Here is a metaphor. The ocean represents the material world. the vaporous clouds represent Spirit. There is a constant alchemical process going on where some water is evaporated and transcends up into the subtle realms, but other vapours are suddenly condensing into rain drops and falling back down.

 

Each of these realms exist but they are totally tied to each other in every way. Like one body made of solid parts and subtle parts. Everything moving, everything transforming, changing...

 

The same goes for us. we have a body, and subtle energetic areas, that some call soul and spirit. But none of this constitutes a Self. When I say self, I mean some fixed, permanent or eternal nature that is always you. That just does not exist on any level. Ever. I continue to exist after realizing No self. In a relative manner.

I just happen to know, because I can clearly see, that none of what I call 'me' or 'I' is actually me or I.

As the body is a tool for our physical realm, so the spirit and soul are vehicles for the subtlest realms of existence, and they are all dependent on each other, mutually arising, influencing... And also tied inextricably to the realms around them.

 

If you don't exist in any sense, don't you see the impossibility of being a spiritual/enlightened/supreme being? Or anything other than nothing for that matter.

 

Same again. Sure there is an seeming existence of a collection of parts that make up the gammut of dependently originating flows through seeming time that also answer when you say "Hey Seth!" I would have to be Nuts to deny the relative level its validity because here it is -seemingly- lol. Not my most eloquent writing.

 

Of course we can attain great realizations, and I sincerely hope we all do.

Anatta is a Big step in that direction. A very good step.

For me [psst I am really trying to impress people here] It has flung the door open to very powerful Non dual states.

And before you say I am a RT sock puppet, I experienced many of these states long before I ever heard of RT. All Anatta has done is make these states far more easily accessible for 'me' [me being my relative self that is].

 

I would have to be some insane spiritual sadist to not want to tell my friends about what I have learned, when it could potentially help others as it has helped me.

 

Blessings to all.

Seth.

[mYTHmAKER]

Seth Ananda had an experience which is real for him.

Why does everyone have the need to analyze it.

None of you can actually know what that experience was.

Maybe if you were in his presence you might be able be there with him.

All this shows is how little the analyzers have obtained.

He has shared something with us.

Way to go Seth

[Otis]

As in, bodily, it's a product of genetics, DNA, food, and mentally, a product of both the previous and parental conditioning, social conditioning, the conditions of what one has exposed oneself to.

 

As in, one can't find an actual singular point of reference that truly defines oneself, even within the elements, atomic particles, and quantum particles that make up your body.

Yes, other than "the body", I would say there is no singular point of reference for the self. Plus, I have to caveat that what exactly the "body" is, is unknowable.

[Informer]

No I am not trying to put you down, what would be the point of that, from your perspective that would be an impossibility. Although your words are telling a different story . . . as if you are offended.

 

I am trying to get you to consider where you went wrong, because you have.

 

You are not promoting Anatta, (not-self, doesn't exist) You are promoting Ruthless truth (no-self, don't exist) which there is an obvious and discernible difference, which would be as clear as day if you were ready for such a teaching. Let alone teaching others.

 

You never did answer my main question which is how any spirit or soul, or anything could exist if what you claim is true.

 

You are portraying sock puppet and avoiding the real question.

 

FYI, that spirit is what you are really, I know you won't take my word for it, just LOOK. Unless of course you make that an impossibility, which you have.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Informer

[Otis]

That is a conceptual understanding of self. It's more in the line of "I think self is... <concepts, models, assumptions>". Find the self that is feeling pain, that wants pleasure.

 

Right now when you say this and when you're angry and when you're hungry there's a very strong sense of I am. I AM saying this, I AM angry, I AM hungry, I AM in pain, I AM in joy. Have you ever try locating and seeing clearly what this sense of I am is like?

 

I am not ruthless truthing you, I don't know no self either. It's just that I see you're taking a very intellectual approach to self. The search for self wasn't meant to belong in a textbook to be read and understood by others. It gives nothing but another concept/idea for people to make love with.

The body is the the self that feels pain and wants pleasure, right? That's not conceptual or intellectual. It's something that's obvious to the senses, and well supported by science.

[Otis]

Yes, completely valid. There is obviously a self. I am posting this right now to reach out to someone else. How can I say there is no self when obviously I'm doing something to please my self.

 

I guess the 'self' eastern religions try to no self with is the sense of self that feels violated when someone inflicts pain on it, that feels being stolen from when someone steal things we have claimed possession of, that feels little when someone think attribute negative qualities to it.

 

The self we hold in our head that believes it has tangible qualities like generous, kind, smart, caring.

 

A self that has a story behind it that is totally subjective and serves to romanticize its life and selectively chooses experiences that embellishes its history.

 

Not no self as in this body is not real, it's an illusion but no self as in there's no self apart from this body. The self who we think is kind, smart, caring, gentle, hardworking, righteous, better than the average bear is a concept and mechanism for survival that has crystallized so much we think is the true self that exists apart from the body.

I totally agree with this.

[Enishi]

Seth I'm curious if you could comment now on the idea of the Higher Self as it exists in New Age thought and various Theosophical/Hermetic traditions? What is your interpretation now?

 

(My own guess is that the "Higher Self" is really our "Non-Linear, Deeper Awareness", rather than an eternal spirit being).

[Otis]

I want to make clear, that I'm not trying to contradict the concept of anatta. I just don't think it makes sense to take it literally, but instead find a "middle way" of understanding the self/no-self question

 

I think what anatta points at is: what I experience in my own head as "a mind", as "me", is neither. It is merely a cluster of processes (biological and/or energetic), that is self-reflective.

 

Particularly, the precise function that is "I" (from what I can see) is the function of attention, of awareness. Since the attention is often focused inward, it mistakes all the other internal functions, like thoughts and emotions, to belong to the same entity. (And of course, they are all part of the same body). However, the "entity" (i.e. structure/function) that is attention is not the source of these other functions. It is aware of them, and gets caught in a feedback loop, in which it mistakes them for its mind, its self. It is so full of it's self, that it refers to the body (i.e. the whole) as "my body", whereas, of course, this mistaken "self" is only a small portion of a small portion of the entire body. (Of course, attention doesn't tell the story of "my body"; that's from the story-teller function, which the attention mistakes for itself, as well).

 

(As for dividing the body into physical, energetic, and spiritual, that seems like unnecessary concepts and divisions to me. There is the body, which encompasses these various metaphors. What exactly the body is, is something "I" can only observe, intuit, and make a rough estimate of).

 

"No self", as I understand it, is a useful belief, encouraged precisely because the previous belief in "me" is one that leads to a lot of suffering. That doesn't mean, however, we should take the concept of "no self" literally, especially when we can point to the body, and say "here it is". (If we ask, where is the dog?, we point at its body. Why should we be different?)

 

I talk of "surrender of self", rather than "no self", because the former is not a belief, but an action, a perpetual letting go of the importance of what my "sense of self" tells me. The latter is a concept that doesn't even hold surface validity to me, so I wouldn't encourage a literal interpretation of that, at all. (For example: "Thinking, no thinker?" WTF? I've never heard of thinking without a body).

[Informer]

Well thank you for the twist of comedy you add to this thread.

Your bitter are you not. Things not going your way somewhere? You like to get mean. In your first post you attempt to belittle me by saying I only 'pretend' to look, discounting my many many years of intensive searching, and the utterly high standards I hold myself to with a mere wipe of your hand... Fair enough.

 

then you say this:

 

 

 

Why what a stunning diagnosis! Thank you! I feel so much better now.

 

Does my realization make you feel Uncomfortable? Is it because it could be true? Is something squirming around inside of you, repeating 'I exist' 'attack attack' 'I exist'...?

 

Is this why you feel the need to bring my sanity into question? Thats really low by the way. If you cant beat me logically {as you have shown} you resort to cheap crowd tactics... Look everyone he is Nuts! A real Loony!

 

 

 

Sounds like to whom? Once again I am only vaguely promoting RT. What I am promoting is the study of Anatta. I have been struggling with Anatta for the last few years, thanks to the fellow bums here, and Rt helped me get it properly, so yes I am grateful [thanks Ruthless Truth] but go re read my RT misgivings post. and my piece in the how to start a cult thread if you must. Anatta is an amazing teaching, and thats what I wish to encourage. But I think there are many people RT would not be good for.

 

 

 

I do not believe it. I see it. Clear as day. Maybe I was lucky. I went to RT already extremely well versed in Anatta philosophy. I did not spend long there. I did not get ground down into some submissive pulp, desperate to please and to agree. Youll find the amazing conversation over at RT under 'Hit me Bitches!' in the pit forum. There you can watch them crush all the free will and independence out of me. lol.

 

 

 

Wow, you really are desperate to put me down. There is that mean streak again!

Poor boy, why you feel that way?

 

 

 

I already did. back a bit.

Here is a metaphor. The ocean represents the material world. the vaporous clouds represent Spirit. There is a constant alchemical process going on where some water is evaporated and transcends up into the subtle realms, but other vapours are suddenly condensing into rain drops and falling back down.

 

Each of these realms exist but they are totally tied to each other in every way. Like one body made of solid parts and subtle parts. Everything moving, everything transforming, changing...

 

The same goes for us. we have a body, and subtle energetic areas, that some call soul and spirit. But none of this constitutes a Self. When I say self, I mean some fixed, permanent or eternal nature that is always you. That just does not exist on any level. Ever. I continue to exist after realizing No self. In a relative manner.

I just happen to know, because I can clearly see, that none of what I call 'me' or 'I' is actually me or I.

As the body is a tool for our physical realm, so the spirit and soul are vehicles for the subtlest realms of existence, and they are all dependent on each other, mutually arising, influencing... And also tied inextricably to the realms around them.

 

 

 

Same again. Sure there is an seeming existence of a collection of parts that make up the gammut of dependently originating flows through seeming time that also answer when you say "Hey Seth!" I would have to be Nuts to deny the relative level its validity because here it is -seemingly- lol. Not my most eloquent writing.

 

Of course we can attain great realizations, and I sincerely hope we all do.

Anatta is a Big step in that direction. A very good step.

For me [psst I am really trying to impress people here] It has flung the door open to very powerful Non dual states.

And before you say I am a RT sock puppet, I experienced many of these states long before I ever heard of RT. All Anatta has done is make these states far more easily accessible for 'me' [me being my relative self that is].

 

I would have to be some insane spiritual sadist to not want to tell my friends about what I have learned, when it could potentially help others as it has helped me.

 

Blessings to all.

Seth.

 

I have experienced exactly what you are talking about, 1st hand. I was a member there at one time. I went through all the motions as perscribed. I was in that void, there is nothing there. My life changed for the worse, I had no motivation to do anything, and I didn't care. It felt ok on the surface. but deep down something didn't feel right, and I started questioning what I had accepted. I found out (after swallowing my pride) that I had been duped.

 

It might take you years to realize this, if ever.

[C T]

I have experienced exactly what you are talking about, 1st hand. I was a member there at one time. I went through all the motions as perscribed. I was in that void, there is nothing there. My life changed for the worse, I had no motivation to do anything, and I didn't care. It felt ok on the surface. but deep down something didn't feel right, and I started questioning what I had accepted. I found out (after swallowing my pride) that I had been duped.

 

It might take you years to realize this, if ever.

Not wanting to speak for Seth, but i think the difference for him is that his life, since the realization, has taken on a renewed understanding/insight into what it means to relate with others and himself in a more present manner - in other words he has begun to stop tripping over him 'self' each time he interacts with his routines and with other people.

 

This is why Seth has cautioned others not to take this sort of investigations lightly.

 

Many, many people (countless) who make the effort to get 'no mind' transmission fail to back up their experience with the right work/practice, hence the tendency to remain in the exact the manner as what you have described above - hanging around the Void all day doing nothing - this is called 'spacing out' or 'tripping'. Thinking they have attained to the highest state possible, they go around annoying fellow practitioners with their overbearing and snobbish behavior, or some even think they are no longer answerable to their own path, and to other people. They become arrogant, and spit on the insights that got them where they wanted to go.

 

Such attitudes surely have no legs to stand on, and one will face the consequences, sooner than later.

 

From where i stand, i can see Seth has a very solid foundation, and will not fall into this sort of dingbat-like state as you have ascribed to him.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

No-self as absolute is not beneficial to anyone but yourself. Because then no one would have a self or anyway to show empathy. It is self serving and nihlistic.

 

DUDE! You really want Seth to prove this to somebody who doesn't even believe that no-self is POSSIBLE?

 

If BUDDHISM didn' convince you.. Well, Seth, I do enjoy the responses...

 

[Informer]

Not wanting to speak for Seth, but i think the difference for him is that his life, since the realization, has taken on a renewed understanding/insight into what it means to relate with others and himself in a more present manner - in other words he has begun to stop tripping over him 'self' each time he interacts with his routines and with other people.

 

This is why Seth has cautioned others not to take this sort of investigations lightly.

 

Many, many people (countless) who make the effort to get 'no mind' transmission fail to back up their experience with the right work/practice, hence the tendency to remain in the exact the manner as what you have described above - hanging around the Void all day doing nothing - this is called 'spacing out' or 'tripping'. Thinking they have attained to the highest state possible, they go around annoying fellow practitioners with their overbearing and snobbish behavior, or some even think they are no longer answerable to their own path, and to other people. They become arrogant, and spit on the insights that got them where they wanted to go.

 

Such attitudes surely have no legs to stand on, and one will face the consequences, sooner than later.

 

From where i stand, i can see Seth has a very solid foundation, and will not fall into this sort of dingbat-like state as you have ascribed to him.

 

Yeah, people even had told me that I appear vacant during those times. When I look back and fallow my thought processes I still wonder how I had accepted such a thing as totality. I find it very disconcerting and realize how powerful the mind really is. It is promoted and part of the teaching of RT to remain in that manner, and bring other into that manner to remain. Which is why I am so adamantly against it. Not because I'm jealous of someone, or out to get someone. It is simply because I care about people.

 

Maybe it is of great benefit to Seth, and he isn't experiencing the placebo effect, I can't know one way or the other, but I do know my experience and how I had felt then in relation to now as well. As do many other's who are on that "list" of enlightened (rofl), who no-longer have anything to do with that teaching, and found out after many months how wrong they were.

 

But you won't see that, all you will see is the deceptive and honkey dorey post that are allowed to remain, unlike the many other's that have been deleted. Which is exactly why they screen members who join the forum manually. To prevent anyone from presenting an opposing view.

 

It is a cult.

[Informer]

DUDE! You really want Seth to prove this to somebody who doesn't even believe that no-self is POSSIBLE?

 

If BUDDHISM didn' convince you.. Well, Seth, I do enjoy the responses...

 

 

I have no Idea what you are talking about. Do you?

[C T]

Yeah, people even had told me that I appear vacant during those times. When I look back and fallow my thought processes I still wonder how I had accepted such a thing as totality. I find it very disconcerting and realize how powerful the mind really is. It is promoted and part of the teaching of RT to remain in that manner, and bring other into that manner to remain. Which is why I am so adamantly against it. Not because I'm jealous of someone, or out to get someone. It is simply because I care about people.

 

Maybe it is of great benefit to Seth, and he isn't experiencing the placebo effect, I can't know one way or the other, but I do know my experience and how I had felt then in relation to now as well. As do many other's who are on that "list" of enlightened (rofl), who no-longer have anything to do with that teaching, and found out after many months how wrong they were.

 

But you won't see that, all you will see is the deceptive and honkey dorey post that are allowed to remain, unlike the many other's that have been deleted. Which is exactly why they screen members who join the forum manually. To prevent anyone from presenting an opposing view.

 

It is a cult.

Ah! This is clearer to me now... thanks you.

 

So basically you are referring to the dangers of getting stuck, and you have seen that RT has this potential of making others stuck, and so you are here to highlight the possible pitfalls.

 

Thats great. Its very kind to look out for your fellow bums.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

The fixation on 'self', whether it exists or not, requires a 'self' to adjudicate a result.. i understand the benefit of simply looking to see what 'is', not looking for 'self' or looking with the intention of finding 'no self'.. just look, without expectation.. the inquisition against self as the source of humanity's problems is not valid, especially if you are appealing to a 'self' to abandon its existence.. at RT, there was simply a transformation into another version of 'self'.. if 'you' only look to see what is so, 'you' will not attach to 'self' or no-self.. that is liberation..

 

Be well..

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yeah, people even had told me that I appear vacant during those times. When I look back and fallow my thought processes I still wonder how I had accepted such a thing as totality. I find it very disconcerting and realize how powerful the mind really is. It is promoted and part of the teaching of RT to remain in that manner, and bring other into that manner to remain. Which is why I am so adamantly against it. Not because I'm jealous of someone, or out to get someone. It is simply because I care about people.

 

Maybe it is of great benefit to Seth, and he isn't experiencing the placebo effect, I can't know one way or the other, but I do know my experience and how I had felt then in relation to now as well. As do many other's who are on that "list" of enlightened (rofl), who no-longer have anything to do with that teaching, and found out after many months how wrong they were.

 

 

Well Informer, it's not too late to look into it for yourself rather than falling for a delusion and stopping at that... Look how sorely you want/wanted to prove that no-one else is capable of achieving what you were unable to do. See the delusion, the envy, and the arrogance that will prevents you from truly Great Wisdom.

 

The greatest delusion and ignorance is to believe we know that which we do not know. I believe this is the mother of Arrogance. And that Arrogance is then the mother of envy and jealousy when we are in so deep that we cannot be joyful for someone who succeeds.

 

Look before you learn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm

[Informer]

Well Informer, it's not too late to look into it for yourself rather than falling for a delusion and stopping at that... Look how sorely you want/wanted to prove that no-one else is capable of achieving what you were unable to do. See the delusion, the envy, and the arrogance that will prevents you from truly Great Wisdom.

 

The greatest delusion and ignorance is to believe we know that which we do not know. I believe this is the mother of Arrogance. And that Arrogance is then the mother of envy and jealousy when we are in so deep that we cannot be joyful for someone who succeeds.

 

Look before you learn

 

 

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm

 

Yeah, you must not have read what I wrote. As nothing you said apply's . . .

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yeah, you must not have read what I wrote. As nothing you said apply's . . .

 

Okay...

 

[Informer]

Okay...

 

 

Do you exist at all H.E. ?

 

Do you subscribe to thier teachings? What is your angle?

 

Do you think that Seth thinks he exists at all?

 

Do you think you exist at all Seth? Do you think I exist for that matter?

Edited July 17, 2011 by Informer

[Mahberry]

The body is the the self that feels pain and wants pleasure, right? That's not conceptual or intellectual. It's something that's obvious to the senses, and well supported by science.

If it's science then it would be the brain sensing the senses. The senses only takes in stimuli and it's not obvious at all if not for our education but it has been so ingrained in us we forgot it was taught to us.

 

Is the body you or is the body yours? If you think it's you as opposed to yours then does it make sense that we can lose a part of it and we'll still be us? If you think the body is yours then who is the you owning the body?