Some Info on Hu Yaozhen

[oat1239]

Some interesting info here about the origins of modern day qigong

that has become popularized in mainland China, and Hu Yaozhen had

some very interesting things to say about the origins of what he called

'xin yi quan' (as opposed to xing yi quan) and the origin of tai ji quan

and the origin of taoist inner cultivation practices. Unless I misunderstood

something here, it would seem that Hu Yaozhen had Lao Zi passing taoist inner cultivation practices on to the Yellow Emperor through Guang Cheng Zi, although the Yellow Emperor is thought to have lived around 2696–2598 BCE. Maybe someone can explain this?

 

 

Hu Yao Zhen & Hunyuan Origin 胡耀貞& 混元渊源

By Yaron Seidman DAOM

( excerpted from: http://hunyuaninstitute.com/huandhunyuan.pdf )

 

 

Hu Yao Zhen 胡耀貞

Hu Yaozhen （1897—1973） was born in Yuci county, Shan Xi province.

Since early childhood studied medicine and martial arts.

In his earlier years he studied with Daoist master Peng Tingjun 彭庭隽

Dao cultivation, inner cultivation, six harmonies heart mind boxing

and Hua Tuo Five Frolics. Later on he studied from Xin Yi master

Dai Wenjun 戴文俊, from Yuan Xiuchen 袁秀臣 he studied Zi Lu style of Taijiquan

and from a Buddhist monk name Li Hong 立宏 studied Buddhist cultivation skills

and Zhuang Zi ‘exhaling the old inhaling the new’ cultivation method 吐呐法.

 

Master Hu was a life long Chinese medicine doctor, a Qigong healer

extraordinaire and a one of a kind martial artist. In 1953

he established with his martial art friend, 17th generation lineage holder

of Chen family Taijiquan, Chen Fake the ‘Capitol (Beijing)

Martial Arts Society’. Despite being an extraordinary martial artist, often

called a 拳神 martial art spirit and 单指震乾坤 ‘with one finger the one who

shakes heaven and earth’, Hu’s greatest contribution to the world

was his art of Qigong. In 1956 he was the first and only one in Beijing

to establish a Qigong hospital. It is little known yet interesting fact

that because of him and selected others like Liu Guizhen 刘贵珍 and

Liu Duzhou 刘渡舟 that the name Qigong became widely accepted by millions

and millions of people practicing it today. Hu is named the father of

modern day Qigong. Out of his many disciples the most accomplished being

Feng Zhiqiang 冯志强, Jiao Guorui 焦国瑞, Qin Zhongsan 秦重三 and Li Jingwu 李經梧.

 

 

Bei Dai He Qigong Symposium

(A personal account by Zhang Tiange 張天戈)

 

In October 1959 Hu Yaozhen was invited to the ‘First Entire China

Qigong Experience Sharing and Symposium’ 全国气功工作经验座谈会及学术交流会

in Bei Dai He 北戴河, a coastal town in north eastern China, between

Tian Jin and Liao Ning. This symposium ordered by the Chinese government

had the goal of “revealing all secrets” and making them available to the

people. At that time the newly communist China has slightly shifted its

attitude from ‘banning the old’ to ‘using the old knowledge to benefit the

people’. The symposium had an odd structure, it was 15 days long and covered

many different topics from Qigong to Buddhism, Daoism, inner cultivation,

medicine etc. The number of participants was especially large as doctors,

healers and practitioners from all across China were dispatched to this

sponsored event. In the symposium first few days the discussion topics were

as follows:

 

1. Openly exchange experience of treating disease with Qigong.

2. Report Qigong treatment of chronic and hard to treat diseases.

3. Analysis of Qigong clinical applications.

4. Discussion on Qigong healing mechanism.

5. Demonstrations and introduction to different kinds of Qigong “bringing the

secrets out” (took place on day 6).

 

On the seventh day the focus fell on the group of representatives from Shan Xi

province, amongst which Hu was. While several masters performed and explained

Hu Yaozhen remained silent as if not to belittle any of the presenters. The

meeting committee has asked Hu’s disciple Qin Zhongsan to bring out his “general”

master Hu. Qing Zhongsan, even though a disciple, was older in age than Hu and

was a ranking officer in the communist liberation army, and so he was invited

first to demonstrate. After demonstrating in detail how he learned from his

master Zhan Zhuang Gong (standing post cultivation) he retired. Hu was still

sitting on the sidelines quiet. The committee and the crowd were awaiting him to

“reveal his secrets” and to confess his wrongdoing and to allow “better” people

to point out corrections.

 

At this time Hu refuted his wrong doing (as was expected from all participants)

and explained that he wasn’t a Daoist recluse, but rather he was only practicing

Qigong and inner cultivation in order to correct his wrong ways. For so many

days Hu was not talking at all, but now as he began he was explaining what

Qigong and inner cultivation were for an entire day. The supervisors and communist

party leaders were so impressed and motivated that they set up especially for him a

performance stage where he could demonstrate his Qigong and inner cultivation

skills as well as martial arts.

 

During this day it was already decided by the committee that Hu’s “Qigong”

teachings and explanations will be immediately published by the department

of health to benefit the people. Within one month the book ‘Qigong’ was published

by the Department of Health Publishing House. Such a quick publication by the

communist government of that time was hardly ever seen. This thin booklet with

only 36,000 characters of course did not reveal the depth of Hu’s Qigong, yet it

spread the practice of Qigong throughout the country like wild fire. The art of

Qigong never died in China much in gratitude to Hu’s contribution. Among his works

are Qigong, Qigong and Preserving Health Cultivation, Wu Ji Acupuncture and Five

Frolics Qigong. He was often titled 妙手神医 Miraculous Hand Spirit Doctor.

According to oral transmission, prior to the communist revolution of 1949, Hu was

the only Chinese medicine doctor and Qigong healer in Beijing allowed into

western style hospitals to treat foreigners. His skill was so impressive that he

could heal broken bones within one day using Qigong therapy.

 

 

Hu Yaozhen’s Preface to

Qi Gong & Preserving Health Gong, published 1959.

胡耀贞自序 Preface

 

气功疗法是我们祖国医学宝贵医学遗产之一，已

有悠久的历史。这种疗法具有却病、防病、健

身、延年的作用。过去佛道两家称它为“静功”，

拳家称为“内功”。据说这种功夫是老子传下来

的。老子先传给广成子，广成子又传给黄帝。

所以在黄帝内经里有按摩、导引及其它养生益

寿的方法。

 

Qigong healing is one of China’s inherited medical treasures. It has a very

long history. This treatment modality can cure disease, prevent disease, keep

the body healthy and prolong life. In the past Buddhists and Daoists named it

Jing Gong (stillness cultivation) while martial artists named it Nei Gong

(inner cultivation). It is said that Lao Zi transmitted this kind of cultivation.

Lao Zi transmitted it to Guang Cheng Zi and Guang Cheng Zi transmitted it to the

yellow emperor. As a result in the Yellow Emperor Neijing there is An Mo massage,

Dao Yin exercises and other nurturing life and benefiting longevity exercises.

 

我从十六岁开始学医、学拳、学道（道家的练功

方法）。我应用的针灸也是从道家的“无极针灸”。

所谓“无极针灸”就是以术者自身的“精气神”扎针

的功夫。扎针时用补泄手法，病人在体内会产生

麻热、凉胀等不同感觉，而且遍及全身。这种针

法是利用气功的功夫进行的。为了学习气功，

在漫长的旧社会里，我曾拜了许多老师，访过许

多朋友。

 

From age 16 I began my study of medicine, martial arts and Daoism (Daoist

cultivation methods). My style of acupuncture is also derived from the Daoist

‘Wu Ji Acupuncture’. The art of Wu Ji Acupuncture is the art of using one’s own

essence, Qi and spirit and apply it while pricking with needles. When pricking and

using tonification and sedation methods the patient feels inside his body numbing

heat, or cool distension spreading all over the body. This kind of acupuncture is

carried out by using Qigong. In order to study Qigong, during the prolonged times

of the old society, I have asked to study with many teachers and visited many

friends.

 

我的老师彭庭俊（霍成光老道的门徒）传授给我

道功、内功、心意拳和华佗五禽戏。以后又拜

山西崇善寺“立宏和尚”为师，他传给我佛家的

练功方法。此外，我还学习过庄子的“吐纳法”。

 

My teacher Peng Tingjun (a disciple of the old Daoist recluse Huo Chengguang)

transmitted to me Dao cultivation, inner cultivation, heart mind boxing and Hua

Tuo’s five frolics exercises. Later on I became a disciple of the monk Li Hong

from Shan Xi’s Chong Shan monastery. He transmitted to me the Buddhist cultivation

methods. In addition I also learned 'Zhuang Zi exhaling old and inhaling new’ method.

 

拳功主要是来自三个方面：

 

1、心意拳：心意拳始于达磨，传给岳飞，岳飞

死后，姬隆风在终南山墙里发现岳飞遗留下来

的拳谱，后来悟透其中道理，习练成功。以后

姬隆风又传给山西祁县戴龙邦之子戴文俊。我

就是和戴家后代及其门徒车子方学习的，并得

到了心意拳谱。

 

2、太极拳：太极拳最早始于“子路太极”。子

路是孔门弟子，姓仲名山。经子路传于杨清

天，杨清天又传于高士基，以后陆续下传，

一直传到袁秀臣。我学的子路太极就是袁秀

臣传下来的。后来，我又和张庆霖老师学习

过“杨家太极拳”。张老师在太极拳方面曾受

过黄山老道的传授。我得到黄山老道的太极

内功谱，以后受益很大。

 

3、八卦拳：我学的八卦拳也是属于心意拳的

一部分。此拳始于达摩，以后陆续相传，一

直迄今。我练八卦拳是从太原穆修易老师那

里学习的，穆老师也是心意拳的先辈。

 

My martial art skill comes from three directions:

 

1. Xin Yi Quan: Xin Yi Quan started from Da Mo (Bodhidharma), and transmitted to

Yue Fei(Song dynasty general, model of patriotism for his stand against the Jin

invaders). After Yue Fei’s passing, Ji Longfeng discovered buried in a wall in

Zhongnan mountain the martial art classic Yue Fei left. Thereafter he got

enlightened with its principle, he practiced until reaching an accomplishment.

Following that, Ji Longfeng transmitted the art to Dai Longbang’s son from

Shanxi’s Qi county Dai Wenjun. I studied with the Dai family and the disciples

of its school and so attained the Xin Yi Quan classic.

 

2. Tai Ji Quan: Tai Ji Quan earliest origins are with Zi Lu Tai Ji. Zi Lu is

one of Confucius disciples, his last name Zhong while his first Shan. From Zi Lu

it was transmitted to Yang Qingtian, Yang Qingtian transmitted to Gao Shiji and so

transmitted on and on until Yuan Xiuchen. I studied Zi Lu Tai Ji with Yuan Xiuchen.

Thereafter I also studied Yang style Tai Ji Quan with Zhang Qinglin. Master Zhang

for his Tai Ji Quan received transmission as well from a Daoist priest in Huang

Shan mountain. I attained the Tai Ji inner cultivation classic of the Huang Shan

Daoist priest and with that the benefits I received were great.

 

3. Ba Gua Quan: The kind of Ba Gua Quan I studied also belongs to Xin Yi Quan. This

martial art started with Da Mo and thereafter transmitted on and on until today.

The Ba Gua I practice is from master Mu Xiuyi of Tai Yuan. Master Mu is also an

older generation of Xin Yi Quan.

 

四十多年来，我一直从事中医工作，业余的时

候练拳，练功也从未间断过。实践证明，拳功

和内功对我的医术很有帮助，特别是华佗的五

禽戏，无论是对我的静功、拳功和医术方面，

更有较好的帮助。我的老师把五禽戏谱传给我

之后，从未发表过，一俟抽出时间经过整理再

另册发表（其它如心意谱、太极谱、买庄图心

意拳谱、保健延年法等，也陆续整理发表）。

 

For 40 years now I have carried the practice of medicine without interruption.

In my spare time I practiced martial arts. The practice of inner cultivation was

as well never interrupted. The testimony of time shows that my practice of martial

arts and inner cultivation helped my practice of medicine greatly, especially so

was my practice of Hua Tuo’s five frolics exercises. Regardless if it is my

stillness cultivation, martial cultivation or medicine skills it helped in all

directions. My teacher gave me the classic of the five frolics exercises and it

was never published.

 

As time becomes available I’ll arrange it and publish in a separate booklet

(others like Xin Yi classic, Tai Ji classic, Mai Zhuang Tu Xin Yi Quan classic,

preserving health and prolonging life methods etc, one after the other I will

arrange and publish).

 

我们祖国有悠久的历史，历代人民在与疾病作

争方面积累了相当丰富的经验。中国医家、拳家

和儒释道三家，都各有一套养生方法。

 

China has a very long history. Throughout the ages people struggled with disease

and the experience accumulated is great. Chinese medicine doctors, martial artists

as well as Confucians, Buddhists and Daoists all have their methods of nurturing

life.

 

四十多年来，在练功学拳方面，我曾经走过许

多弯路，也吃过不少苦头。如上各家的练法，

我是先后都练过（虽然还没有练好）。通过

曲折的实践和漫长的认识过程，我开始找到一

些练功的规律，特别是“静”和“动”的规律。根

据这种规律，又结合拳的内功，综合了一种

“静动气功”的练法。这种练法就是目前我们在

临床上用以治病的主要方法。

 

In 40 years of practicing martial arts and inner cultivation I certainly walked

a round-about way and also experienced great hardship. The above mentioned arts I

have practiced throughout (even though never practiced well). Through the grinding

work and the long process of cognition I began seeking out the rules of practicing

cultivation, especially the rules for “stillness” and “movement”. Based on these

rules plus integrating it with martial art inner cultivation that I synthesized a

kind of “Stillness and Movement Qigong” practicing method. This kind of practicing

method is what we currently use in clinic to treat patients.

 

解放后，在共产党和毛主席的正确领导下，

气功在临床治病方面得到了推广，并获得了很

大的成效。我们门诊部，从1956年应用气功治

病以来，已对一些比较难治的慢性病，如胃及

十二指肠溃疡、胃下垂、慢性肝炎、肝硬变、

神经衰弱及心脏病等，获得了较好的效果。在

提高医疗效果上起到了一定作用。

 

After liberation, through the correct instruction of the communist party and

chairman Mao, the application of Qigong healing in clinic got popularized and

reached great results. Our clinic since 1956 utilizing Qigong therapy attained

good success with treating difficult to treat chronic diseases such as duodenal

ulcers, stomach prolapse, chronic hepatitis, liver cirrhosis, neurasthenia and

heart disease. It has a definite action in improving the curative effect.

 

我的思想认识，是在党的领导和教育下，经过

各个阶段的运动，逐步有所提高。在党的鼓足

干劲，力争上游，多快好省地建设社会主义总

路线的光辉照耀下，我和全国人民一样，也在

欢欣鼓舞的工作着，逐渐将各种练功方法传授

给患者，以提高疗效。尤其在今年10月份出

席了北戴河气功交流经验大会，由于直接受到

大会党组织无微不至的照顾和关怀，及与会同

志们的爱戴，使我万分感激，也给我极大鼓舞。

因此，回京后下决心，

无保留地将我所知道的气功疗法中从前没有教授过

练功方法，记述出来，以便大家参考和运用。

 

I recognize that under the leadership and education of the party, through the

different arrangement steps, progressively there is an improvement.

Under the party’s utmost effort and striving for progress, to achieve greater,

faster, better and more economical results for constructing socialism, the

glory of this general line shines down, for me and for the entire people

likewise all elated by this work, gradually to take these practicing cultivation

methods and transmit to patients in order to increase the curative effect.

Especially after attending Bei Dai He’s Qigong Experience and Exchange Conference

in October this year, in which I received direct and meticulous loving care from

the organizing committee, and much respect from the other comrades that I feel

extremely grateful and inspired. Therefore after coming back to Beijing that I

decided not to keep any secrets of whatever I know about Qigong healing, and

whatever previously cultivation methods I did not teach. I record and narrate them

here in order to allow everyone to consider and use them.

 

相信在党的领导下，气功疗法，经过大家的研

究和整理，一定会更好地为社会主义建设服务。

限于时间，我们还没有把更多的练法和内容介

绍出来，也没有在理论问题上作更多的研究。

俟再版时另行补充。

 

Believing in the leadership of the party, Qigong healing undergoing research and

arrangement by everyone, certainly can be more beneficial for constructing a

service for socialism. As there is a time constraint, we still didn’t bring out

other exercise methods and content, and from the theory aspect also didn’t

explore farther. I’ll await the second printing of the book to supplement it.

 

为向国庆十周年献礼，写这本小册子，动手仓

促，特别是限于个人水平，其中缺点和错误一

定不少，敬请中西医专家及广大读者惠予指正。

1959年11月于北京胡耀贞

 

For the tenth year anniversary of our country I wrote this small booklet, the

hand moved hastily and especially because my level is limited, that in it the

deficiencies and errors are certainly many, I respectfully invite doctors of

east and western medicine and the general public to kindly correct me.

November 1959 in Beijing.

Hu Yaozhen

 

 

<Some further info on Hunyuan and related concepts from Yaron Seidman's article>:

 

Hunyuan 混元

《繫辭上- Xi Ci Zhuan》易有太極，是生兩儀

，兩儀生四象，四象生八卦，八卦定吉凶，吉

凶生大業。

Change has Taiji, this creates the two forces, two forces create the four

aspects, four aspects create the eight trigrams, eight trigrams determine good

or evil, good or evil create the grand business (of life).

 

Kong Yida 孔穎達 (574AD-648AD) writes in ‘Book of Changes True Meaning’:

太极谓天地未分之前，元气混而为一，即太初、太一也。

Taiji is the time where heaven and earth did not separate yet. The Yuan 元

(original) Qi was Hun 混 (mixed) into one. It is the ultimate beginning, it is

the ultimate oneness.

 

混元既分，即有天地,故曰太極生兩儀

When Hunyuan separates, immediately there is heaven and earth, therefore it is

said Taiji gives birth to two forces.

《呂氏春秋- Lü Shi Chun Qiu 大樂》

太一出兩 儀，兩儀出陰陽。陰陽變化，一上一下，合而

成章。渾渾沌沌，離則復合，合則復離，是謂天常。

From ultimate oneness come out two forces. From two forces come out Yin

Yang. Yin Yang change and transform, one above one below, they join into

one whole and become one entity. In a pre-separation state, when separating

it comes back together again, and when coming back together it separates again.

This is called heaven constant 天常.

This is Hun Yuan 混元.

 

 

 

 

-

Edited July 16, 2011 by oat1239

[Jetsun]

[oat1239]

Very interesting thanks

Were these texts ever published or translated does anyone know? and I have heard of the five animal frolics but I wonder if these are the same exercises spoken about here?

 

I don't know if those ever got published.

Yes, it is the same Hua Tou's five animal frolics that are popular, although different

teachers teach different variations of these exercises.

 

Here are some pictures of Hu Yaozhen practicing the Hua Tou five frolics:

 

Edited July 16, 2011 by oat1239

[oat1239]

Here are a couple of video's of Hu Yaozhen's daughter, Hu Yuexian, doing her stilneess and movement qigong:

 

 

 

 

Is this similar to the Stillness Movement qigong being taught by YaMu?

Edited July 16, 2011 by oat1239

[Ya Mu]

[oat1239]

Yes, awesome method indeed.

 

So, if you don't mind commenting, I am wondering if the qigong practiced by Hu Yaozhen's daughter, Hu Yuexian, in the above videos is similar to the Stillness Movement Qigong that you teach?

Edited July 16, 2011 by oat1239

[Ya Mu]

So, if you don't mind commenting, I am wondering if the qigong practiced by Hu Yaozhen's daughter, Hu Yuexian, in the above videos is similar to the Stillness Movement Qigong that you teach?

Haven't looked at the your posted video but I have seen other videos of her and it would have to be similar as it is the same system; bear in mind that Stillness-Movement movements have many variations due to energetic interaction with any particular practitioner as well as how well any particular practitioner "syncs" with the specific vibrations and to the extent that any particular practitioner has raised his/her energy body vibration. The energetics are the same but the actual movement can vary.

[oat1239]

Haven't looked at the your posted video but I have seen other videos of her and it would have to be similar as it is the same system; bear in mind that Stillness-Movement movements have many variations due to energetic interaction with any particular practitioner as well as how well any particular practitioner "syncs" with the specific vibrations and to the extent that any particular practitioner has raised his/her energy body vibration. The energetics are the same but the actual movement can vary.

 

Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

[lifeforce]

[Ish]

There's no doubting his skills, but why all the pro-communist propaganda ?

This is a regime which has murdered millions of it's own people and nearly wiped out over 2000 years of culture.

 

I believe at that time, it was the only way to get it published. Perhaps he didn't even write that and they just censored and edited the text as they wish.

According to this site http://www.spiritualwarriorstoday.com/Biography/biography-216_hu-yaozhen-1879-1973 , Master Hu Yaozhen was killed by the communist regime. It's really sad for a great master to be treated in this way.

@Ya Mu, do you perhaps have anymore information about Master Hu? According to some of the texts I've seen his skill really was incredible.

 

Best,

Ish

[Ya Mu]

I believe at that time, it was the only way to get it published. Perhaps he didn't even write that and they just censored and edited the text as they wish.

According to this site http://www.spiritualwarriorstoday.com/Biography/biography-216_hu-yaozhen-1879-1973 , Master Hu Yaozhen was killed by the communist regime. It's really sad for a great master to be treated in this way.

@Ya Mu, do you perhaps have anymore information about Master Hu? According to some of the texts I've seen his skill really was incredible.

 

Best,

Ish

Yes, if you wanted to do anything you HAD to tote the party line.

 

There is more info, some stories, on the net. I do not have links handy.

[ChiDragon]

 

There's no doubting his skills, but why all the pro-communist propaganda ?

This is a regime which has murdered millions of it's own people and nearly wiped out over 2000 years of culture.

I think we may ignore the propaganda part.

 

At the time, he may a member of the CCP. It was almost a requirement to give all credits to the CCP, regardless, whatever it was to show loyalty to stay alive.

[ChiDragon]

.......据说这种功夫是老子传下来
的。老子先传给广成子，广成子又传给黄帝。
所以在黄帝内经里有按摩、导引及其它养生益
寿的方法。

...... It is said that Lao Zi transmitted this kind of cultivation.
Lao Zi transmitted it to Guang Cheng Zi and Guang Cheng Zi transmitted it to the
yellow emperor. As a result in the Yellow Emperor Neijing there is An Mo massage,
Dao Yin exercises and other nurturing life and benefiting longevity exercises.

Hold on a minute......
There is a discrepancy in the timing between the existing period of Lao Zi(老子) and Yellow Emperor(黃帝). Yellow Emperor was in the prehistoric stone age; and Lao Zi was in the period of the Warring States. It is not possible that the disciple of Lao Zi has a chance to meet the Yellow Emperor.

[Brian]

 

There's no doubting his skills, but why all the pro-communist propaganda ?

This is a regime which has murdered millions of it's own people and nearly wiped out over 2000 years of culture.

As I understand it, the excerpt quoted above was from a booklet which was produced as a product of the qigong symposium ordered by the government 1959 to "reveal all the secrets" and give them to the government. Master Hu tried to remain silent until, a week into it, he was specifically called upon to reveal his secrets and confess his wrongdoings for correction. He then consumed an entire day of the convention and the government immediately ordered his teachings to be published in book-form, entitled "Qi Gong and Preserving Health Gong."

 

His martial arts were as legendary as his qigong and his healing skills.

[ChiDragon]

气功疗法是我们祖国医学宝贵医学遗产之一，已

有悠久的历史。这种疗法具有却病、防病、健

身、延年的作用。过去佛道两家称它为“静功”，

拳家称为“内功”。

 

Qigong healing is one of China’s inherited medical treasures. It has a very

long history. This treatment modality can cure disease, prevent disease, keep

the body healthy and prolong life. In the past Buddhists and Daoists named it

Jing Gong (stillness cultivation) while martial artists named it Nei Gong

(inner cultivation).

 

If I may repeat what has been said here.....

The QiGong healing method was referred as the "Static Method" in the past by the Buddhists and Taoists; while the martial artists referred as "Nei Gong" the "Internal Method." It was only stating the "QiGong healing method". Sorry to said, it still doesn't identify what QiGong nor NeiGong was. This definition is really too vague. Can anyone pin point and identify what is QiGong from this article.....???

Edited January 7, 2015 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

.........此外，我还学习过庄子的“吐纳法”。
....... In addition I also learned 'Zhuang Zi exhaling old and inhaling new’ method.

It's easy to translate but does the translator or the readers know what this method is all about.....???

[Brian]

 

If I may repeat what has been said here.....

The QiGong healing method was referred as the "Static Method" in the past by the Buddhists and Taoists; while the martial artists referred as "Nei Gong" the "Internal Method." It was only stating the "QiGong healing method". Sorry to said, it still doesn't identify what QiGong nor NeiGong was. This definition is really too vague. Can anyone pin point and identify what is QiGong from this article.....???

This is an old conversation which you choose not to hear, ChiDragon.

 

Those who practice the methods and cultivate within the lineage are mildly amused at the attempts to intellectualize the teachings . Those who do not find the words frustrating.

 

<shrug>

[ChiDragon]

I had post more info here once before

Edited January 8, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Walker]

 

 

It's easy to translate but does the translator or the readers know what this method is all about.....???

 

 

 

If you count me amongst the readers, then yes. I have been taught this method by one of Master Hu's daughters.

 

If your mind is open to the possibility that you might be wrong about what qigong is, then I suggest you find a way to read some of Master Hu's actual writings, instead of reading these kinds of articles.

 

You would find out that Hu Yaozhen was not interested in what you call "the ultimate method of breathing." In fact, he wrote explicitly and repeatedly that people should not concern themselves with how they are breathing, because this kind of focus is the wellspring of deviations.

 

The "tu-na" practice passed on by Master Hu is the same way. It is a practice concerned strictly with subtle energies--not breathing.

[dawei]

As a self-proclaimed Philosophical Taoist...

 

Hold on a minute......
There is a discrepancy in the timing between the existing period of Lao Zi(老子) and Yellow Emperor(黃帝). Yellow Emperor was in the prehistoric stone age; and Lao Zi was in the period of the Warring States. It is not possible that the disciple of Lao Zi has a chance to meet the Yellow Emperor.

 

Your in over your head...

 

If I may repeat what has been said here.....

The QiGong healing method was referred as the "Static Method" in the past by the Buddhists and Taoists; while the martial artists referred as "Nei Gong" the "Internal Method." It was only stating the "QiGong healing method". Sorry to said, it still doesn't identify what QiGong nor NeiGong was. This definition is really too vague. Can anyone pin point and identify what is QiGong from this article.....???

 

And you can't get outside your mental construction...

 

It's easy to translate but does the translator or the readers know what this method is all about.....???

 

of practice...

 

All the above have explanations.

 

1. Laozi is just an incarnation, like all of us... most well know as Taishang Laojun... so I am already outside of philosophical Taoism... so how can you possibly accept any further explanation on transmission understanding backwards in time ?

2.......... vague? 5,000 years of Qigong... drop the dependence on native scholars and the internet and find someone who you are willing to learn from.

3. Out with the old and in with the new... What smells 'old' each day? Socks. What grows 'new' each day? Hair.

 

Breath in through the crown and out through the heels... Connect heaven and earth... etc.

[ChiDragon]

If you count me amongst the readers, then yes. I have been taught this method by one of Master Hu's daughters.

 

If your mind is open to the possibility that you might be wrong about what qigong is, then I suggest you find a way to read some of Master Hu's actual writings, instead of reading these kinds of articles.

 

You would find out that Hu Yaozhen was not interested in what you call "the ultimate method of breathing." In fact, he wrote explicitly and repeatedly that people should not concern themselves with how they are breathing, because this kind of focus is the wellspring of deviations.

 

The "tu-na" practice passed on by Master Hu is the same way. It is a practice concerned strictly with subtle energies--not breathing.

 

What did you think I have been doing....???

I had been reading his writing here:

All documentations about 胡耀貞(Hu Yaozhen)

 

Can you identify any area which he does not mention breathing....??? Most of his writings about breathing seem very obscure to me. Sometimes it is clear, then most of the time is very vague.

 

 

Edited to add...

This is your post #6 quoted from: Bagua practice dangers, safety tips

 

I am no master but I have trained baguazhang since 2008 with four teachers, two in Beijing, one in Shanghai, and one Chinese teacher in the US. I have lived in China for almost all of that span in time. My only substantial breaks in practice over these years have been due to illness or injury.

 

Do you have many illnesses in the past few year....???

Do you practice the "tu-na" method often...???

 

FYI.... I do practice the 吐吶(tu-na) by the minute which keeps my immune system very high. As the result of that, I am very energetic, healthy and hardly get sick.

 

Edited January 11, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

There seems to consistently be a marked difference between those who intellectualize and pontificate about the teachings of Master Hu and those who actually practice within the direct lineage of Master Hu.

[ChiDragon]

Perhaps......!!!

May the members have a little personal data exchange with their experiences, if no one minds....???


PS......
You don't need to hear the truth but I do.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Walker]

ChiDragon, the documents in that link do not include most of Hu's writing. You should obtain 《胡耀贞动静气功》 (Hu Yaozhen's Stillness-Movement Qigong). It is for sale here. This text is a reprint of Hu's main writings, and it was published in 1986.

 

I really hope you will read this stuff carefully instead of reinterpreting its content to suit your own tiresome agenda. However, ultimately, my hopes are not high, and I took the time to painstakingly transcribe the following passages and then translate and annotate them not so much for your benefit, ChiDragon, but to help out the newbies on this board who I don't want to be led astray your prolific (7,442!?) and all-too-often very misleading posts.

 

In this book, Hu is very clear about breathing. Below I give numerous examples.

 

 

Page 4:

 

呼吸：一般的气功，在谈到练功方法时，主要是谈呼吸法。如自然呼吸、潜呼吸、调息、喉头呼吸、内呼吸、生理呼吸、吐纳法等等。这些方法，一般是提倡口鼻呼吸并配合一定的要求，是有意的、人为的呼吸法，我们称之为后天呼吸。如能经常练之，当可收医疗保健之效。本气功的呼吸法与一般的气功的呼吸法不同，是先天呼吸。是不以人为方法调整口鼻呼吸和腹式呼吸，而是在入静时，将口轻闭，舌头自然伸平，鼻子的呼吸以意封闭。呼吸的部位，是在守窍。这种先天呼吸的特点是窍呼吸。所谓以意封闭，不是真的闭住气不呼吸，而是把呼吸忘掉，根本不想它，使之真正成为自然的呼吸，以避免由于呼吸不自然而发生任何毛病。

 

Translation [words in brackets are my own]:

 

Breathing: Typical qigong, when speaking of practice methods, primarily speaks of breathing methods. These include natural breathing, hidden breathing [in which the breath is barely detectable], breath adjusting, larynx breathing, internal breathing, physiological breathing, tu-na method, and so on. These methods usually emphasize oral and nasal breathing and carry definite requirements. They are intentional, man-made [ie, caused by human attempt or effort], breathing methods, and we call them later heaven breathing methods. If one is able to practice them frequently, one should be able to obtain healing and preventative results. This qigong's [ie, Stillness-Movement qigong] is not the same as normal qigong breathing methods--it is early heaven breathing. It uses no methods resulting from human effort to nasal-oral breathing nor abdominal breathing. Rather, when one enters stillness, one lightly closes one's mouth, lets the tongue naturally flatten out, while the nasal breathing is sealed off by intent. The location of the breath is at the cavity [ie, dan tian, ming men, true water and ministerial fire cavities, etc] one is holding to--the special trait of this type of early heaven breathing is cavity breathing. What is referred to as "using the intent to seal [the breath]" does not mean literally holding the breath and ceasing to breathe, and rather means forgetting the breath, fundamentally not thinking of it, making it become genuine natural breathing, in order to avoid any problems that can occur due to unnatural breathing.

 

I bolded three passages:

 

1) Hu Yaozhen is including the type of tu-na which you promote and practice in the category of later heaven breathing.

 

2) Hu Yaozhen agrees with you--your practice is capable of helping people heal from illness and prevent illness. Wonderful! However, although it may be true that your breathing technique is responsible for your good health, if you really are a scientist, you should accept that other factors may be at work--I know lots of people who "hardly get sick" but don't practice anything like tu-na.

 

3) Here, ChiDragon, you can see clearly that the breath must be forgotten in Stillness-Movement qigong. That includes the abdomen's movements.

 

 

 

Below I include a passage that shows that when Hu Yaozhen used the word "breathing" (呼吸, a compound of two characters which literally breathe out-breathe in), he was not necessarily referring to anything involving the nose, lungs, and air.

 

 

Page 7 (Parentheses are part of the original text, not my own) [Text in brackets is my own]

 

当意达丹田时，立即将肚脐极为轻缓地往里吸，直到吸得不能再吸时，在意想上觉得脐与命门相贴，腹部自然向前放松（也叫呼），即所谓“吸之绵绵，呼之微微”。象这种一吸气，是有意的，如同座钟、挂钟上的摆，开始先用手摆动一下，引导它走动起来，以后就不再管它了，动就动，不动就守着它，自己不要加意。这里所说的动，是指丹田自发呼吸活动和身体之各部动，思想则不能离开丹田随之而动，仍应不忘掉丹田。

 

Translation:

 

When the intent has arrived at the dan tian, immediately make the belly button extremely softly suck inwards, all the way until it can suck in no further, so that one feels as though it is stuck to the ming men, and then the belly naturally relaxes outwards (this is also called "exhaling"). The above is what is spoken of as "breathing in softly, breathing out faintly." This type of breathing in qi carries intent, in the same way as when one gets the pendulum started on a desk clock or a wall clock [remember, Hu was writing in the 50s] by first swinging it a little bit, in order to get it going, and then one no longer worries about the it ["it" here refers to motion in the dan tian region]; if it moves then it moves, if it doesn't move then just keep watch on it, you don't let yourself add intent. The movement spoken of here refers to the dan tian's spontaneous breathing activities and the movements of all over the body; your mind shouldn't leave your dan tian and follow the body's movements--you should continually make sure not to forget your dan tian.

 

To clarify, the practice described above, although it uses the Chinese characters most often translated as "breathe in" (吸) and "breathe out" (呼), is not describing a "breathing method." It is describing a way of initiating movement in the dan tian, which then might or might not create spontaneous internal and/or external movements.

 

If one uses this kind of practice, an almost infinite variety of breathing patterns could arise, spontaneously. These could include breathing patterns that are deep, shallow, fast, slow, etc, including all manner of physical accompaniments. One simply allows what arises to arise, naturally, without interference. If you are not clear about what Hu thinks about practices that require intentional controlling of the breath, refer to the first translated passage.

 

In case you don't believe me, see the below:

 

 

Page 18

 

练功时将呼吸以意封闭，是为了不使思想分散，不去考虑口鼻呼吸之快慢深浅和对不对，以使之成为真正的自然呼吸，不因呼吸不妥而产生副作用。

 

Translation:

 

When practicing, one uses intent to seal the breath so that mental activity doesn't scatter and so that one doesn't go and think about the breath's quickness or slowness, its deepness or shallowness, or whether it is correct or not. This is to create real natural breathing, and to ensure that one won't experience side-effects because of inappropriate breathing.

 

 

Page 75

 

当然，这里所说的呼吸，并非是用人为的鼓肚子瘪肚子的方法

 

Of course, the breathing spoken of here definitely isn't the bulging and sinking of the belly caused by human effort.

 

 

Now, in case ChiDragon or anybody else still thinks that Hu Yaozhen was "very vague" about breathing, there is the following:

 

 

Page 91

 

吸气微微呼气绵绵，中丹田这样一呼一吸，即为丹田呼吸，这时应随着丹田自然呼吸，万不可有意鼓肚子和瘪肚子，不可硬和口鼻呼吸配合。丹田呼吸的频率和幅度可大可小，任其自然，切不可用意指挥。

 

Translation:

 

Breathe qi in softly, breathe qi out faintly; when the middle dan tian's* breathes in and out in this way it is called dan tian breathing. At this time one should go along with the dan tian's natural breathing, under no uncertain terms you cannot use intent to bulge the belly out and suck it back in, and you cannot doggedly connect its breathing with nasal-oral breathing. The frequency and range of the dan tian's breathing are variable; let nature take its course, you absolutely cannot use intent to conduct things.

 

*When Hu Yaozhen speaks of the middle dan tian, he is referring to the dan tian behind the belly button, not at the heart

 

 

Finally, let me take you back to the very first page, where we see how from the get-go Hu Yaozhen warns us that not breathing naturally is dangerous:

 

 

Page 1

 

呼吸以意封闭，真正从属自然，可以避免发生偏差。

 

When one uses intent to seal the breath, and truly and really subordinates oneself to nature, one can avoid the occurrence of deviations.

 

[The definition of "sealing the breath" is in the third bolded passage in the first block quote above]

 

 

Whew, I don't think Master Hu could have been any clearer!

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I will add that Hu Yaozhen does include very precise instructions for post heaven tu-na breathing in this book, but they are included in the chapter entitled "Supplementary Exercises for Lengthening One's Years;" this method does not represent the main thread of Stillness-Movement practice. True, he does attribute it to Zhuangzi, but I can say with 100% surety that the meat of the Zhuangzi tu-na practice passed on in the oral teachings is not this method. Again, it involves "subtle energies" and its instructions regarding oral-nasal breathing and the movements of the belly are exactly in terms of everything I translated above.

 

I don't have time to sit and make posts like this on anything resembling a regular basis, so I won't go tit-for-tat nitpicking my translation. I hope that these translations are of benefit to the many teachers and practitioners of Stillness-Movement Qigong as well as people who might be interested in it. I also add that I have been given teachings about breathing by two Dragon Gate Daoists with many decades of practice and study under their belts each; what they says precisely echoes Master Hu's words. All manner of changes to the breath can happen, up to and including no breathing at all.

 

This is natural.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Walker

[ChiDragon]

Walker.....
Thank you for your time and effort for going over Master's Wu writings. I do not wish to waste anymore of your valuable time for arguments. I will reserve my comments and let the readers to decide either to believe all of that or just take it for granted. However, I will respond to those who have questions for me. Then, I will speak with an open mind. If you think my posts are misleading is only your honest opinion; and I thank you for that.

I would like you to answer the following question.
Can you just tell me what have you been accomplished, so far, from your school....???


BTW You did an excellent job on your translation......