[TTC Study] Chapter 51 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[rene]

Lots of fodder to chew on and debate between the renditions! For me, the simple meal is what underlies all the words: Our source is not separate from us; its nature is our own.

 

warm regards

 

p.s.. overdue thanks, Marblehead, for your efforts in here. (-:

[dawei]

This kind of chapter bothers me in the sense that all the buzz words are here (Dao, De, Sheng, Xuan, Xuan De) but I don't see translations as getting it all out right.

 

I don't see 'Dao Sheng' as Dao giving life or birth or producing anything; that makes Dao a thing too. Just as I don't see "gravity" and the "law of gravity" as one and the same. I see Dao as the law which the arising follows; the arising are as such because they undergo their own "dao'ing". This ability I see as the power or efficacy or virtuosity (De) of Dao.

 

I don't see De as 'virtue' as it becomes too associated with ethical Confucian. Lao Zi "De" is not Confucian "De". Whereas Confucius takes a high [ethical] road (wei, action, as practice makes perfect and becomes useful), Lao Zi takes the low [mystical] road (wu wei as no thought-provoked action makes emptiness and becomes useful).

 

I don't see Xuan as hidden, dark, mysterious or any other obscure idea, particularly when combined with De. This is yet another Confucian idea. Xuan is code for heaven. Even Heshang Gong saw De associated as to Oneness in it's function.

 

Finally, to say that 'things' worship/honor/venerate Dao and do homage/honor De seems to go too far in the religious direction.

[Marblehead]

I don't see De as 'virtue' as it becomes too associated with ethical Confucian. Lao Zi "De" is not Confucian "De". Whereas Confucius takes a high [ethical] road (wei, action, as practice makes perfect and becomes useful), Lao Zi takes the low [mystical] road (wu wei as no thought-provoked action makes emptiness and becomes useful).

 

IMO this is a very important understanding regarding Chinese philosophy. Lao Tzu and Confucius used the word 'virtue' in very different ways. I think you spoke very well to this above.

 

Finally, to say that 'things' worship/honor/venerate Dao and do homage/honor De seems to go too far in the religious direction.

 

Yep. There are a few translations of the TTC that leans toward a religious realm. But then I suppose that this is why it was easy to take Lao Tzu's philosophy and form an established religion from it. (Stig should have fun reading this.)

 

No, I can't say I "worship, honor or venerate" Dao and De. But we should understand the processes and respect them as much as possible.

[dawei]

Yep. There are a few translations of the TTC that leans toward a religious realm. But then I suppose that this is why it was easy to take Lao Tzu's philosophy and form an established religion from it.

If we are talking the ancient chinese establishing as such, then I think what may be forgotten is that daoism is shamanistic and spiritual before transitioning to humanistic philosophy; So 'religion' (ie: bringing the human to the spiritual) was actually quite predictable......... in hindsight

 

The Shaman WAS the intermediate; the intercessor for the group. I think what Lao Zi brilliantly did was to show that there is NO intercessor... well, no physical intercessor was needed. "De" IS the intercessor ! The physical existence does not do anything to establish the ability (intercessor capability); The physical is the manifestation reacting to the environment (this chapter speaks to this idea).

 

Dao, as the guiding law, shows a way; De, as the power to effect the law (of gravity, of reactions, of interaction, of arising), results in an arising and flourishing of life. But the 'end game', rarely spoken of, is the 'returning' aspect.

 

I will slightly (or greatly digress) here: If we do not let "what arises to return", then how can the 'power to effect' truly be harnessed? In other words: If the earth is the abode, the residence of De efficaciously creating the ONE through the guidance (Dao), then how can earth persist?

 

My query maybe takes a dramatic humanitarian turn here; but if the earth is following Dao (chapter 25), then it requires all things to return to its soil. If we build a society which does not promote this, earth will one day just vanish...

 

My idea here is not necessarily this chapter, but the entire book. But just food for thought.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for mentioning that. Stig and I had a very nice discussion about this shortly after I joined the forum and I agreed with him as I do with you.

 

But no matter what I say it does not negate the validity of the Taoist religion.

 

As with all things, first cause is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to put our finger on. The best we can do is point at what we think it is.

[dawei]

The best we can do is point at what we think it is.

Maybe this is where we differ. "What we think"? If it is about 'thinking', then it is not Lao Zi. Once "doing", it is about life (ie: Lao Zi). Decrease thinking to the point of emptiness is not just mystical; it is a reality. Empty, then you are able to do anything without direct-purpose; it is just "doing".

[Stigweard]

Thanks for mentioning that. Stig and I had a very nice discussion about this shortly after I joined the forum and I agreed with him as I do with you.

 

But no matter what I say it does not negate the validity of the Taoist religion.

 

As with all things, first cause is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to put our finger on. The best we can do is point at what we think it is.

LOL indeed we did:

 

The Relationship Between Religious and Philosophical Taoism

 

Is your Taoism a "Religion"?

 

Hehehe

[rene]

... I see Dao as the law which the arising follows; the arising are as such because they undergo their own "dao'ing". This ability I see as the power or efficacy or virtuosity (De) of Dao.

 

I don't see De as 'virtue' as it becomes too associated with ethical Confucian. Lao Zi "De" is not Confucian "De". Whereas Confucius takes a high [ethical] road (wei, action, as practice makes perfect and becomes useful), Lao Zi takes the low [mystical] road (wu wei as no thought-provoked action makes emptiness and becomes useful). ...

dawei, well put; the bolded parts resonate. It might be a bit disingenuous to assign ethical and moral virtue to a concept (De) not yet familiar to many.

[dawei]

Thanks Rene, so I should continue some idea of Lao Zi "De", whether anyone agrees or not.

 

Confucius believed in Dao and De; His understand of the Way and Ethic was that of common folks raising to Jun Zi; the most excellent gentleman; a man of exuding ethics! which others would follow as his example. This is the high road.

 

Lao Zi believed in Dao and De; His understanding of the Way and Power was without regard to anyone needing to follow him; it was in regard to it's source alone (Dao and De). This is the ultimate principle of "returning to the source".

 

As the Sage arises and returns [like natural life of plants or trees], so others see the Sage exemplifies natural life.

 

De is not affecting only people (Confucian) but all life (Lao Zi). In this way, life possesses De in order to naturally return to Dao. This is life and death.

[rene]

Thanks Rene, so I should continue some idea of Lao Zi "De", whether anyone agrees or not.

Yes, continue, and you may find more agreement than you expect. It would be nice if, in the discussions of the TTC chapters here in the subforum, Laozi's "De" was used as the basis for context.

[dawei]

Yes, continue, and you may find more agreement than you expect. It would be nice if, in the discussions of the TTC chapters here in the subforum, Laozi's "De" was used as the basis for context.

To be frank, I think "De" is the 'missing link' between heaven and earth. 'De' is the power to transcend the realms.

 

It was said that 'Xuan' was Heaven as 'yellow' was earth. SO what is 'Xuan De' ?

 

A heavenly [sent] power to transcend the realms? Did I lose you at this point???

[rene]

No, you did not lose me. Allow me, however, to start a new thread so others may join in this if they wish and so that we dont drag Ch 51 farther off track.

[Marblehead]

Maybe this is where we differ. "What we think"? If it is about 'thinking', then it is not Lao Zi. Once "doing", it is about life (ie: Lao Zi). Decrease thinking to the point of emptiness is not just mystical; it is a reality. Empty, then you are able to do anything without direct-purpose; it is just "doing".

 

No, we don't differ. The words we use are different.

 

I fully understand and agree with what you have said. However, I use the word 'thinking' in an all-encompassing manner. That means I am speaking to conscious thinking as well as subconscious thinking. We do not have awareness if we are not thinking (having brain activity).

 

Yes, in the state (condition) of wu wei all of this thinking is happening in the subconscious but it is still happening. We are 'aware' of what is going on around us but we are not a part of it until we are called into action. At this point our conscious mind takes control.

 

But I agree that we should decrease our conscious thinking. This allow our 'true nature' to be in control.

[Marblehead]

I rarely prefer the English/Feng translation of the TTC chapters but this is one of those exceptions.

 

I think that their translation speaks best to the processes of nature as far as I have observed.

[dawei]

Yes, in the state (condition) of wu wei all of this thinking is happening in the subconscious but it is still happening. We are 'aware' of what is going on around us but we are not a part of it until we are called into action. At this point our conscious mind takes control.

We may only be differing in our words or explanation but I thought to write some more

 

Not sure that I agree there needs to be 'thinking' going on in the subconscious either. Meaning, any kind of thinking is preventing action; thus, any delay means there is some sort of internal interference to action (or simply 'doing', as I usually prefer to say). We can be stuck in a sort of Confucian mode, conscious or subconsciously. I think we can be aware of what is going on but it may not be necessary on some level. Meaning, have you ever done something and not know the reason, but maybe later saw that that was the best course? You were just doing in the moment without stopping to analyze or needing to be thinking or aware. There is that phrase of 'sitting and forgetting' and another 'forgetting about forgetting'. Then there is just 'doing'. Anyways, just conscious thoughts

[Marblehead]

We may only be differing in our words or explanation but I thought to write some more

 

Not sure that I agree there needs to be 'thinking' going on in the subconscious either. Meaning, any kind of thinking is preventing action; thus, any delay means there is some sort of internal interference to action (or simply 'doing', as I usually prefer to say). We can be stuck in a sort of Confucian mode, conscious or subconsciously. I think we can be aware of what is going on but it may not be necessary on some level. Meaning, have you ever done something and not know the reason, but maybe later saw that that was the best course? You were just doing in the moment without stopping to analyze or needing to be thinking or aware. There is that phrase of 'sitting and forgetting' and another 'forgetting about forgetting'. Then there is just 'doing'. Anyways, just conscious thoughts

 

Yep. I know what you are talking about. (I sometimes get up to do something and when I start walking I have forgotten what I got up to do. Hehehe.)

 

But seriously, I used to think as you do but because of some documentaries on TV regarding sleep and dreaming I have come to the conclusion that our brain is always active. It never sleeps even when we are sleeping. If it is active then there is thinking going on. All the time.

 

But no, we are not always conscious of this thinking. I have said in the past that I rarely dream. The truth is that my dreams are rarely vivid enough for me to be conscious of them.

 

Yes, right now we are playing with words. Hehehe. I know what you are referring to and I agree with you as to the basics of what you are saying.

 

Now, logical (or illogical) thinking is a different horse. Yes, all that takes place in the conscious mind. Confucius being logical (his logic) and Lao Tzu being intuitional awareness.

 

Now, there's nothing wrong with logical thought. However, illogical thought is not so good. But it is more fun to live intuitively.

[dawei]

But seriously, I used to think as you do but because of some documentaries on TV regarding sleep and dreaming I have come to the conclusion that our brain is always active. It never sleeps even when we are sleeping. If it is active then there is thinking going on. All the time.

 

But no, we are not always conscious of this thinking. I have said in the past that I rarely dream. The truth is that my dreams are rarely vivid enough for me to be conscious of them.

Yes, I do agree with this... I might say there is brain activity (whether it is truly thinking or processing or running the hamster wheel!)... and funny thing about the dreams; I have the same thing occur. Are you familiar with Halosync? Whenever I listen to those tapes over time, my dreams kick in very vividly. You can google it.

Edited July 18, 2011 by dawei

[stan herman]

We may only be differing in our words or explanation but I thought to write some more

 

Not sure that I agree there needs to be 'thinking' going on in the subconscious either. Meaning, any kind of thinking is preventing action; thus, any delay means there is some sort of internal interference to action (or simply 'doing', as I usually prefer to say). We can be stuck in a sort of Confucian mode, conscious or subconsciously. I think we can be aware of what is going on but it may not be necessary on some level. Meaning, have you ever done something and not know the reason, but maybe later saw that that was the best course? You were just doing in the moment without stopping to analyze or needing to be thinking or aware. There is that phrase of 'sitting and forgetting' and another 'forgetting about forgetting'. Then there is just 'doing'. Anyways, just conscious thoughts

 

It's interesting to note how much thinking there is here about non-thinking action. It would seem we can not escape thinking. However one can say that there is 'thinking' that is thought about (analysis) and there is 'thinking' that is an instantaneous flash (insight, intuition, inspiration). This is 'action' thinking. Is it less of a doing than any other action?

 

51. All things are created in Tao, given their shapes and natures, and their movement. Each thing is moved according to its shape and nature, and all things are moved according to their interaction with each other.

 

Tao does not push all things, nor does it pull them. It is satisfied, as a parent

 

to give them birth

to watch over them

to furnish nourishment for their growth

to accord them opportunity

to provide the arena for their play.

 

For this Tao expects no reward.

[dawei]

When possible, I personally opt to try and quiet the Monkey Mind and let the Gut interact with the incoming signals as much as possible. Get rid of [too much] thinking. Intuition is housed in the subconscious, however that really works I don't know but the signals are responded to differently, IMO.

 

I think the point of "doing" is that the chinese see this as the main issue; not thinking. It is not what are you thinking about; that is irrelevant since it produces no action. What you do does not require to ask about thinking since the thought has given way to action and one sees the result. I think what we find in the west if a delay and sometimes a separation of functions which the classical way did not.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I do agree with this... I might say there is brain activity (whether it is truly thinking or processing or running the hamster wheel!)... and funny thing about the dreams; I have the same thing occur. Are you familiar with Halosync? Whenever I listen to those tapes over time, my dreams kick in very vividly. You can google it.

 

I have heard mention of it a couple times but have little interest in it.

 

Hehehe. I don't want any vivid dreams. I used to have them when I had a troubled mind and I didn't like them.

 

(Reducing my salt intake also helped me to have non-vivid dreams while sleeping.)

[Marblehead]

Every time I see the term "Monkey Mind" I think schizophrenia.

[dawei]

Every time I see the term "Monkey Mind" I think schizophrenia.

I know some don't like Chia, but this is worth a read:

Stopping the monkey mind

http://innerself.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5974

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[Marblehead]

Translation by Shaman Flowing Hands:

 

Very different, especially with the use of "vital energy" rather than "Virtue."

 

Yes, very different. Probably a fair term to use although I normally associate energy with Chi and I am pretty sure Lao Tzu was speaking to De, Virtue, or, the Way of Tao here, not Chi.