[TTC Study] Chapter 51 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

Yes, very different. Probably a fair term to use although I normally associate energy with Chi and I am pretty sure Lao Tzu was speaking to De, Virtue, or, the Way of Tao here, not Chi.

Yes... on the surface. Here is why he substitutes "vital energy" for "De"... this is my opinion:

 

If you compare Chapter 10 to this chapter, you will see many similar phrases used:

 

1. The last four lines in both chapters are character for character the same. The last line in both goes: "This is called XUAN DE".

2. Just before that, what chapter 10 says in one line, chapter 51 expounds in four lines, but it's the same meaning.

3. Although chapter 10 does not explicitly say that it is Dao or De doing the phrases, chapter 51 did explicitly state it for those same phrases. Ergo, one can substitute it in.

4. In Chapter 10 is Qi as a character and some translate as "Vital Force" (Yutang) acting on a newborn. Chapter 51 uses words like "gives birth", "nurtures" , "feeds"; all pictures of care for a newborn.

 

It is easy to see all the parallel and that Chapter 51 discussion of Dao and De is equivalent to the Chapter 10 discussion of Qi. Ergo, "vital energy" (or vital force) is what encourages the internal action (chapter 10) of Dao and De (chapter 51) in mankind.

[lienshan]

English/Feng

 

All things arise from Tao.

They are nourished by Virtue.

They are formed from matter.

They are shaped by environment.

This kind of chapter bothers me in the sense that all the buzz words are here (Dao, De, Sheng, Xuan, Xuan De) but I don't see translations as getting it all out right.

 

I don't see 'Dao Sheng' as Dao giving life or birth or producing anything; that makes Dao a thing too.

The corresponding chinese characters are:

 

道生之

德畜之

物形之

勢成之

 

The 之 character is treated as a pronoun "they" by the translators, but there's no-one to refer to?

 

之 had many meanings in classical chinese e.g. being the coverb "to make" in passive constructions:

 

Tao makes living.

Virtue makes nourishing.

Matter makes formed.

Environment makes shaped.

 

The above must be read in a passive sense like "a smile makes beautiful".

[dawei]

The corresponding chinese characters are:

 

道生之

德畜之

物形之

勢成之

 

The 之 character is treated as a pronoun "they" by the translators, but there's no-one to refer to?

 

之 had many meanings in classical chinese e.g. being the coverb "to make" in passive constructions:

 

Tao makes living.

Virtue makes nourishing.

Matter makes formed.

Environment makes shaped.

 

The above must be read in a passive sense like "a smile makes beautiful".

I can't buy it... When we get so pendantic trying to resolve a single [grammatical] word, we lose all the meaning in the whole. And we lose all english sense as well. I'll post my idea.

[dawei]

Here is some of the text, as I see it:

 

What I would like to convey is that it is not that people honor and value Dao and De; it is an intrinsic aspect of the ten thousand to radiate that back, like an endowed, attractive power. It comes with life and returns to its source. When the sun shines on us, our bodies vibrate a response back. I see this as not of our own doing but the natural operation (zi ran). This power (De) to do this has its source in the life principle (Dao); the connection or gateway is Xuan.

 

道生之 - Dao is the life principle

德畜之 – De is the nourishing power

物形之 – Matter is the appearing form

勢成之 – Circumstance is the completing influence

 

是以萬物 – Therefore among all things [appearance and circumstance]

莫 不 尊 道 – there is none not [returning that] honor [to] Dao [as the life principle]

而 貴 德 – and value [to] De [as the nourishing power]

道 之 尊 – The honor [from/to] Dao [as the life principle]

德 之 貴 – The value [from/to] De [as the nourishing power]

夫 莫 之 命 – Is Not from [divine] decree

而 常 自 然 – but from the natural operation and arising of life.

 

The next four lines are exactly repeated in Chapter 10 as an ending too.

 

The final line going as: “This is called XUAN DE”

 

I see this as “The Power of ONE [connection]”

 

Chapter 10 talks of the unity of the spirit and soul and how one keeps that like a newborn maintains their Qi; ergo, their connection to the universal.

 

Chapter 51 is saying the same thing from a different perspective; but showing the connection is due to the operation of Dao and De; held together by Xuan De.

 

Zhuangzi

 

On Honor:

What is it that we call the Dao? There is the Dao, or Way of Heaven; and there is the Dao, or Way of Man. Doing nothing and yet attracting all honour is the Way of Heaven; Doing and being embarrassed thereby is the Way of Man. It is the Way of Heaven that plays the part of the Lord; it is the Way of Man that plays the part of the Servant. The Way of Heaven and the Way of Man are far apart. They should be clearly distinguished from each other.

 

On Value:

What the world thinks the most valuable exhibition of the Dao is to be found in books. But books are only a collection of words. Words have what is valuable in them - what is valuable in words is the ideas they convey. But those ideas are a sequence of something else - and what that something else is cannot be conveyed by words. When the world, because of the value which it attaches to words, commits them to books, that for which it so values them may not deserve to be valued - because that which it values is not what is really valuable. Thus it is that what we look at and can see is (only) the outward form and colour, and what we listen to and can hear is (only) names and sounds. Alas! that men of the world should think that form and colour, name and sound, should be sufficient to give them the real nature of the Dao. The form and colour, the name and sound, are certainly not sufficient to convey its real nature

Edited July 19, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 51 - The Abyssal Te

1. Tao engenders it,

2. Te rears it.

3. Matter forms it,

4. Environment grows it.

5. Hence, all things respect Tao and honor Te.

6. The dignity of Tao,

7. The value of Te.

8. They're not interfered but let them be natural.

9. Therefore,

10.Tao engenders it,

11.Te rears it.

12.Grow it and nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.To foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possessing it.

16.For it but not restraining it,

17.Raise it but not controlling it,

18.It was called the abyssal virtue.

 

51

1. 道生之，

2. 德畜之，

3. 物形之，

4. 勢成之。

5. 是以萬物莫不尊道而貴德。

6. 道之尊，

7. 德之貴，

8. 夫莫之命而常自然。

9. 故,

10.道生之，

11.德畜之。

12.長之育之。

13.亭之毒之。

14.養之覆之。

15.生而不有，

16.為而不恃，

17.長而不宰。

18.是謂玄德。

Edited July 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Chapter 51 - The Abyssal Te

 

Not bad. Line 8 could use some work. Maybe line 16 also.

[ChiDragon]

Not bad. Line 8 could use some work. Maybe line 16 also.

 

Chapter 51 - The Abyssal Te(revised)

1. Tao engenders it,

2. Te rears it.

3. Matter forms it,

4. Environment grows it.

5. Hence, all things respect Tao and honor Te.

6. Tao was dignified,

7. And Te was honored,

8. Because they do not interfere but always being natural.

9. Therefore,

10.Tao engenders it,

11.Te rears it.

12.Grow it and nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.To foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possessing it.

16. Flourishing it but not being vainglorious.

17.Raise it but not controlling it,

18.It was called the abyssal virtue.

 

Note: Revised lines are shown in bold.

Edited March 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yeah, much better. Speaks more clearly to the concept.

[dawei]

IMO, lines 4,8, and 16 are still not correct in english.

4. The environment grows it (?) or Environmental circumstances grow it

8. Because they do not interfere [but are natural] or [but because they are natural]

16. I tend towards parallelism when possible. You start the line "flourishing" but neither the previous nor next line say "producing" or "raising". But the line just reads a bit awkward.

[lienshan]

 

The next four lines are exactly repeated in Chapter 10 as an ending too.

That's true in the Received version but that's not true in the Mawangdui versions:

 

The Mawangdui chapter 10: 生而弗有，長而弗宰也，是胃玄德。

 

The Mawangdui chapter 51: □□弗有也，為而弗寺也，長而弗宰也。此之謂玄德。

 

The difference is 為而弗寺也

 

That'll say Laozi wrote to versions; either adding or omitting the different characters.

That's the same story with the two versions of the chapter 64 in the Guodian version.

 

This indicates that Tao Te Ching wasn't published by Laozi himself,

because he wouldn't have used something that he had editted himself.

[Marblehead]

This indicates that Tao Te Ching wasn't published by Laozi himself,

because he wouldn't have used something that he had editted himself.

Probably a supportable conclusion.

[lienshan]

The second line is a Laozi addition and I read the four lines in this way:

 

In childhood without possessions.

In youth without reliance.

In manhood without governance.

This is called the Te of the darkness.

 

The first line tells why benevolence is unnatural.

The first line tells why fillial piety is unnatural.

The first line tells why righteousness is unnatural.

 

The darkness is natural while the mystery isn't in my reading of the character 玄

The darkness is too opposite to the Ta Yi Sheng Shui term 神明 spirit and light

[Marblehead]

Well, you will have to go on without me with this one. First, it is too far off from all other translations I have read and , secondly, I don't accept the word "darkness" as a replacement for "Mystery". "Darkness" has too many negative connotations.

[lienshan]

First, it is too far off from all other translations I have read

 

The character 弗 was tabooed, when the Received version was written, and was replaced by 不

 

生而不有，為而不恃，長而不宰 and Laozi's original version 生而弗有，為而弗恃，長而弗宰

 

The negative particle 弗 no preceeded nouns.

The negative particle 不 not preceeded verbs and adjectives.

 

The term 長而 in manhood occurs in the James Legge translation of the confucian analects:

 

子曰：幼而不孫弟，長而無述焉，老而不死

 

The Master said : "In youth not humble as befits a junior; in manhood, doing nothing worthy of being handed down; and living on to old age ..."

 

The grammatical explanation: when 而 meant if then was its position behind the subject of sentence.

 

 

I do know that the above is darkness to you but now you know the reason why some of the translations you read are flipsy-flopsy nonsense based on the lottery of picking the most pleasing word from a modern chinese dictionary

Edited June 5, 2013 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

I do know that the above is darkness to you but now you know the reason why some of the translations you read are flipsy-flopsy nonsense based on the lottery of picking the most pleasing word from a modern chinese dictionary

Yeah, I was already aware of that from reading different translations and then reinforced by the discussions you and others here on TaoBums who enjoy doing your own translations.

 

Me?, I have to rely on my logic and power of reasoning. If it doesn't sound right it probably isn't. (For me.)

[ChiDragon]

The character 弗 was tabooed, when the Received version was written, and was replaced by 不

 

The classic character 弗 was not tabooed. It was only an ancient character which is no longer use anymore in the modern time. The character 不 is used instead.

[lienshan]

 

The classic character 弗 was not tabooed. It was only an ancient character which is no longer use anymore in the modern time. The character 不 is used instead.

 

Professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank writes on page 105 in his Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar:

 

The history of bu 不 and fu 弗 is complicated by the fact that the character fu 弗 was tabooed

for a time during the Han dynasty because it was part of the personal name of Liu Fuling 劉弗陵

who reigned as the Emperor Zhao 昭 from -86 to -74. We know from manuscript evidence that

this resulted in the replacement of 弗 by 不 in the transmitted text of the Dao de Jing 道德經

 

My advice:

 

Please spread your misinformations somewhere else; did you read it in a chinese newspaper?

[ChiDragon]

Professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank writes on page 105 in his Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar:

 

The history of bu 不 and fu 弗 is complicated by the fact that the character fu 弗 was tabooed

for a time during the Han dynasty because it was part of the personal name of Liu Fuling 劉弗陵

who reigned as the Emperor Zhao 昭 from -86 to -74. We know from manuscript evidence that

this resulted in the replacement of 弗 by 不 in the transmitted text of the Dao de Jing 道德經

 

My advice:

 

Please spread your misinformations somewhere else; did you read it in a chinese newspaper?

 

This time you did your homework and I didn't....... :D

 

Thank you for the advice, it applies to both of us, more or less. Keep up the good work.....

 

Edited June 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

First, it is too far off from all other translations I have read

 

長而弗宰

 

In manhood without governance. (lienshan)

 

Raise it but not controlling it, (ChiDragon)

 

To be a leader, not a butcher, (John Wu)

 

Guiding without interfering, (English/Feng)

 

It matures them but doesn't rule them. (Robert Henricks)

 

Guiding them but not controlling them. (Beck)

It leads them but does not master them. (Chan)

It fosters growth without ruling. (Cleary)

Acts as elder and does not rule. (Hansen)

Presides but doesn't rule. (LaFargue)

Growing yet without directing. (Lindauer)

Is superior, and does not control them. (Lin Yutan)

Guides, but does not control. (Mabry)

Shaping without forcing, (Merel)

Leads without forcing. (Mitchell)

Cultivates without controlling. (Red Pine)

Leading without dominating. (Walker)

It lets them grow, without tyrannizing them. (Wieger)

Assists them without taking credit. (World)

[ChiDragon]

長而弗宰

 

In manhood without governance. (lienshan)

Raise it but not controlling it, (ChiDragon)

To be a leader, not a butcher, (John Wu)

Guiding without interfering, (English/Feng)

It matures them but doesn't rule them. (Robert Henricks)

Guiding them but not controlling them. (Beck)

It leads them but does not master them. (Chan)

It fosters growth without ruling. (Cleary)

Acts as elder and does not rule. (Hansen)

Presides but doesn't rule. (LaFargue)

Growing yet without directing. (Lindauer)

Is superior, and does not control them. (Lin Yutan)

Guides, but does not control. (Mabry)

Shaping without forcing, (Merel)

Leads without forcing. (Mitchell)

Cultivates without controlling. (Red Pine)

Leading without dominating. (Walker)

It lets them grow, without tyrannizing them. (Wieger)

Assists them without taking credit. (World)

.

The majority in red has the closest translation for the character 長(to grow, rear, raise).

Edited June 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

長而弗宰

 

In manhood without governance. (lienshan)

Okay, I still like yours the best. Well, okay, maybe second to Henricks'.

[ChiDragon]

Okay, I still like yours the best. Well, okay, maybe second to Henricks'.

 

I'm just curious, how do you justify that....???

[lienshan]

I'm just curious, how do you justify that....???

 

The character 而 meant if in pre-Qin chinese when its position behind the subject of sentence.

I read 長 as the subject of the sentence, a noun, meaning an adult human being.

 

That'll say if an adult human being is synonymous with the term in manhood

 

Governance is the act of governing.

It consists of either a separate process or part of decision-making or leadership processes.

To distinguish the term governance from government: "governance" is what a "governing body" does.

 

That'll say without governance is synonymous with the wellknown term wu wei

 

 

Raise it but not controlling it, isn't wu wei

[ChiDragon]

 

That'll say without governance is synonymous with the wellknown term wu wei

Raise it but not controlling it, isn't wu wei

"not controlling" isn't wu wei......???

"without governance" is not saying the same thing as "not controlling it" ....????

 

Then, what is your definition of "wu wei" then.....????

 

 

PS.....

Actually, the question was addressed to Marblehead.

Edited June 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

I'm just curious, how do you justify that....???

I don't. I was being an ass. I really don't like his at all.