Stretching and Mobility

[mYTHmAKER]

One thing you might try is sitting a little deeper in your form.

Just a little at a time - this might help stretch you out a bit.

Especially where you sit in horse or single whip.

[Mal]

One thing you might try is sitting a little deeper in your form.

Just a little at a time - this might help stretch you out a bit.

Especially where you sit in horse or single whip.

 

Thank you for this suggestion...... it's perhaps really the only one that I actually implemented, as opposed to just reading/researching

(although I did talk with Santi and slightly changed a pull up and a chi gong)

 

Since things have been painful I have probably reduced my form too much (at the start of the year I could not put much more than 50% weight on my left leg for quite a few weeks which was a real handicap)

 

My range of motion continues to improve, most noticeable with (or via) the kicks (eg Separate right leg, Separate left leg) and squating single whips, so Tai Chi is definitely helpful / healing.

[mYTHmAKER]

Thank you for this suggestion...... it's perhaps really the only one that I actually implemented, as opposed to just reading/researching

(although I did talk with Santi and slightly changed a pull up and a chi gong)

 

Since things have been painful I have probably reduced my form too much (at the start of the year I could not put much more than 50% weight on my left leg for quite a few weeks which was a real handicap)

 

My range of motion continues to improve, most noticeable with (or via) the kicks (eg Separate right leg, Separate left leg) and squating single whips, so Tai Chi is definitely helpful / healing.

 

When you kick, swing gently and as smoothly as possible keeping your muscles relaxed.

kick from your buttocks - hip and your core. Also relax into squats.

You might try Pilates with a good instructor. This will strengthen your core and help with proper alignment

which might help your range of movement, and get rid of the nerve pain.

I've done Resistance stretching with Dara - it's good but i prefer Pilates with a knowledgable instructor.

If you do go that route find one who is a physical therapist.

[dawei]

one thing which I think is not mentioned yet and is more like a 'checkup' is to find a very good cranio-sacral therapist who can read the energetic alignment of the entire spine and the flow of the cranial fluid throughout. If there is any anomaly, the entire body is affected but it's not easy to trace it back to the source of the spine; but these therapist can. So, it is best to get it checked out and get that worked on as needed since no amount of stretching will simply 'fix' that.

 

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniosacral_therapy

 

great thread. thanks for raising this.

[mYTHmAKER]

one thing which I think is not mentioned yet and is more like a 'checkup' is to find a very good cranio-sacral therapist who can read the energetic alignment of the entire spine and the flow of the cranial fluid throughout. If there is any anomaly, the entire body is affected but it's not easy to trace it back to the source of the spine; but these therapist can. So, it is best to get it checked out and get that worked on as needed since no amount of stretching will simply 'fix' that.

 

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia....osacral_therapy

 

great thread. thanks for raising this.

 

True

However it is important to build a strong core so you stay in alignment

[LBDaoist]

I'm looking at replacing my morning 20 min meditation session (about the only "free" time available) so something "spiritual" like mussel tendon change could be an idea. Do many here practice that?

 

Mal,

 

I practice qigong a couple of times a day. It is a good way to start things off in the morning and when you focus on the internal dynamics it strengthens the muscles and tendons. I also do sui lim tao (a Wing Chun form) and both 6 and 36 dynamic tension exercises. Those are great for tendon training.

[johndoe2012]

P.S I am a fan of western somatic education approaches and the somatic conditioning approaches of the Russians. Interestingly though I started using these to inform my Chinese practices, as I dove further and met better teachers I found the Chinese practices do all of this and more. It is just not always so easy to see or find.

 

snowmonki,

 

could you share the Chinese exercises you are talking about here?

[寒月 Hanyue]

one thing which I think is not mentioned yet and is more like a 'checkup' is to find a very good cranio-sacral therapist who can read the energetic alignment of the entire spine and the flow of the cranial fluid throughout. If there is any anomaly, the entire body is affected but it's not easy to trace it back to the source of the spine; but these therapist can. So, it is best to get it checked out and get that worked on as needed since no amount of stretching will simply 'fix' that.

 

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniosacral_therapy

 

great thread. thanks for raising this.

 

+1 They are great. Aspects of some neigong teach methods where you basically do this to yourself, I have felt the skull plates being pulsed by my teacher and it is quite extraordinary. But someone that can help balance this out for you to help you on your way is well worth finding.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

snowmonki,

 

could you share the Chinese exercises you are talking about here?

 

 

What would you like to know? I said 'Chinese practices' to simply avoid many of the preconceptions that become associated with the common terms, and I am referring to a spectrum. So it is a very open and broadly interpretable question Let me know what your interest is in and I can save myself writing an essay on something off the mark by mistake

 

Best,

[johndoe2012]

 

What would you like to know? I said 'Chinese practices' to simply avoid many of the preconceptions that become associated with the common terms, and I am referring to a spectrum. So it is a very open and broadly interpretable question Let me know what your interest is in and I can save myself writing an essay on something off the mark by mistake

 

Best,

 

My interest right now is joint mobility, conditioning by bodyweight exercises and also releasing tension by moving "more natural / conscious", like somatic and feldenkrais exercises teach you.

 

Also general tension release exercises interest me.

[寒月 Hanyue]

My interest right now is joint mobility, conditioning by bodyweight exercises and also releasing tension by moving "more natural / conscious", like somatic and feldenkrais exercises teach you.

 

Also general tension release exercises interest me.

 

OK. Things are on a spectrum, but its not linear or polar in nature. The hardest thing is genuinely listening to yourself and "knowing" what is best. Teachers happily give ingredients, it is always the recipe that is guarded. Teachers are a help to us because we are often blind to what we need, and tend to focus on what we want.

 

Somatic (re)education should lead to somatic conditioning simply through increases in intensity/sophistication. Condition too early and you simply reinforce what you want to release out of the body-mind.

 

So, an important but often over-looked point first. You want to pay attention to changing the relationship not the shape of the body. Moving the limbs or joints about without the tissues releasing, opening etc does you not good what so ever. Bending into pretzels is not as good as hardly moving but releasing and opening the joints and tissues.

 

There is conscious and unconscious practice. The difference? conscious practice should really be prescriptive and tailored to fit a percieved need/deficit. Meaning you need to be able to recognise these and select appropriate exercises. Tension or tightness in the body can be a result of many things, it is not simply a case of, this area is tight I'll stretch it.

 

Unconcious is when you step out of the way and allow the body to do what it needs to do. There is no "diagnosis".

 

Seitai's Katsugen undou

Seikijutsu

Jingdong gong

Yigong

Kriyayoga

 

Are all examples of unconscious methods, they have their differences too of course. I am not going to go into this here.

 

Deep relaxation-shaking-mobilty go together.

 

Joint mobility. The best and most easily accessible resource is the Feldenkrais Method and its off shoots. I don't recommend Feldenkrais' books as a starting place, the guy was a genius but struggled to express himself well. There are lots of lessons here http://www.flowingbody.com/ which gives the 'what', Check out easy to get hold of books like 'Awareness Heals' to get an understanding of the 'how'. I also recommend 'Zen-Body Being' by Peter Ralston, not Feldenkrais but well worth reading.

 

Relaxation. Look up Progressive Muscle Relaxation (PMR), the same method is taught in China as "Fang song gong". Some schools of neigong go straight to the higher levels of PMR (ie using the awareness to directly release bound tension without specifically contracting the muscles), see what works for you.

 

Shaking (concsious/volitional). Basic, stand in a natural posture feet under your pelvis (not shoulder width), gently begin to bounce up and down. Feel for the spring in the joints. Feek for the tension in the tissues. What moves what does not. Allow the bones to send vibrations through the soft tissues. It is not about vigor, it is about how easily vibration can travel through the soft tissue. Find the natural rhythm to relase any tension. To begin with the body will be a load of parts shaking, in time it can become one rhythm. 20-45 minutes.

 

All of the above is taught within decent wu (martial) neigong though is usually deeper and more nuanced. When done with the yin perspective it is a potent way to fix the body. But it is harder to learn. I know of no resources that really explain chang jin gong (tissue lengthening), kaihe gong (open/close "pulsing"), chan si gong ("spiraling") which are practices that go deeper than most do with Feldenkrais (though some may fall into aspects of these while doing Feldenkrais if they keep going with it). These really need to be learned from a teacher.

 

Some of my teachers have explained the theory much more than others, it is primarily taught through feeling and being shown. I have come to the understanding I have from what I have been taught, self experimentation and research, which is an ongoing process guided by instruction.

 

Some basic starter points. The three main layers of the body are bone (gu), soft tissue (jin), and skin (pi). Training to be aware of these and how they relate is important (different traditions use different practices to train them in different ways, it depends on why you are doing what you are doing). Tissue lengthening, begin to forget about specific muscles and pay attention to the sensation of the tissues sliding, of all the muscle filaments sliding into each other or sliding apart. Feel this rather than hard contraction. Pulsing, begin with "pulsing palms" this should be done by overtly opening and closing the whole hand from the laogong point, paying attention to what is moving and what is not, and slowly reducing the movement while MAINTAINING the same sensation in the palm, so it pulses but is not overtly moving. Play with this then take this experience and see if you can apply it to other joints. I am not going to get into chan si gong.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Best

Edited August 20, 2011 by snowmonki

[johndoe2012]

Good post, snowmonki.

 

Changing the relationship to the body, yes, much more important than changing the shape.

 

I'm doing Stillness-Movement and that takes care of many of my 'holdings', martial arts is not really my focus any more.

 

The flowingbody link looks very good, will try the lessons.

 

Thanks.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Good post, snowmonki.

 

Changing the relationship to the body, yes, much more important than changing the shape.

 

I'm doing Stillness-Movement and that takes care of many of my 'holdings', martial arts is not really my focus any more.

 

The flowingbody link looks very good, will try the lessons.

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, inner (somatic*)experience over simply moving the body around. While I had teachers trying to get me to understand this, IIRC it was either Ralston's or one of Daniel Odier's books that put it in a way that finally made it click. I could post a picture of a posture but the important bit of what is happening inside and how the posture is being used is not overtly evident. And in fact most postures can be used in different ways anyway (which is why I think context is important, and don't get the arguments over the 'correct' way). SM is a powerful way to engage with the present and allowing. Anything else should really feed back into that.

 

The free lessons on flowingbody are an awesome resource.

 

All the best,

 

 

*Somatic in Thomas Hanna's recovered definition of "living body experienced from within" rather than dead body observed from without.

Edited August 21, 2011 by snowmonki

[johndoe2012]

After doing Thomas Hanna Somatics exercises for about a week I've had a big release in my lower back muscles, so my posture has changed.

 

Also I have become aware that I clench my teeth during the day, which is the source for tightness in my jaw - and probably also neck.

 

I've found Somatics to be very profound and best of all, non-forcing compared to other "systems" out there, like stretching and so on. I have become aware and suddenly think about the various movements and the static positions I hold throughout the day in a different way than previously.

 

The point is clearing sensory motor amnesia and get the muscles to release their contraction.

 

Links for people interested

 

Somatics book

 

Martha Peterson's blog

 

Audio CDs with somatic exercises

[doc benway]

I have a stretching/warmup routine that I learned from my Shifu. I usually follow that with Tai Ji Quan form, some Nei Gong, and Qi Gong (if I have the time). That's my daily routine (along with meditation). I alway felt like I was reasonably limber but my back has always been an issue, very tight especially in the mornings and after strenuous exercise (like very physical push hands and san da).

 

I've been plagued with low back pain since an injury about 20 years ago. I recently discovered a ridiculously simple routine that I do every morning that has improved my back pain dramatically. I increased may hamstring stretching until I was able to easily press my open palms to the floor with my knees fully extended. Now I simply get in a hot shower first thing in the morning, press my palms to the floor, and take it beyond that - bending the elbows. For a while I would feel it mostly in my hamstrings. Once my hamstrings got loose enough I would feel it in the low back and pelvis where the lumbar, sacral, and pelvic muscles attach. I relax there and let the hot water run on my back. When I get out of the shower, I do side to side whips - very loose, feeling the lumbar and sacral areas loosen and pop and crack until it's fully relaxed. That's it. My back feels great! I think the key was to loosen the hamstrings.

[寒月 Hanyue]

After doing Thomas Hanna Somatics exercises for about a week I've had a big release in my lower back muscles, so my posture has changed....

 

Hanna's concept of 'Sensory-motor amnesia'(SMA) was a big help to me, I still think it is fundamental, and applicable beyond sensory-motor re-education. The same concept can be used to understand the emotions and mind too. These days I find SMA to have much cross-over with sick qi/stagnant qi although the two are not completely the same.

 

Best,

 

P.S. Thanks for the links and resources

Edited August 31, 2011 by snowmonki

[gendao]

After doing Thomas Hanna Somatics exercises for about a week I've had a big release in my lower back muscles, so my posture has changed.

 

Also I have become aware that I clench my teeth during the day, which is the source for tightness in my jaw - and probably also neck.

 

I've found Somatics to be very profound and best of all, non-forcing compared to other "systems" out there, like stretching and so on. I have become aware and suddenly think about the various movements and the static positions I hold throughout the day in a different way than previously.

 

The point is clearing sensory motor amnesia and get the muscles to release their contraction.

 

Links for people interested

 

Somatics book

 

Martha Peterson's blog

 

Audio CDs with somatic exercises

Interesting, could you give a summary of what exactly "Somatics" is? And maybe a few simple examples for us to test-drive?

 

(It wasn't very clear from the links - which talked about, but not how?)

[johndoe2012]

chris, I tried some of the two way movements based upon Martha's description, not seeing any of the moves except the "top shelf." Shortly after starting, the s-m energy kicked in. Did this happen with you too?

 

edit> Was very good/enjoyable to have both conscious movement along with the s-m "engine" that kicked in. (S-M as "engine" was coined by another s-m practitioner. Very appropriate term.)

 

when I had the release in my lower back muscles I felt either blood or qi flow through that area.

 

didn't feel any engine start-up (in the dantien if that's what you mean).

 

I've added a 5 min somatics warm-up in the morning before going to intu-flow. Previously my neck would always be very stiff when doing the intu-flow movements. After somatics, the body is very awake and the neck is not stiff at all, so the intu-flow movements don't seem that necessary anymore

[johndoe2012]

Interesting, could you give a summary of what exactly "Somatics" is? And maybe a few simple examples for us to test-drive?

 

(It wasn't very clear from the links - which talked about, but not how?)

 

 

don't go into the pain, make the arch very small if you have to. And don't force your back into the ground.

 

One could come with many definitions of Somatics, from http://painandmobility.com/

 

[somatics] employs a unique method of reeducating the brain so as to restore sensory awareness and fuller voluntary control to the brain over the muscles in the motor system

[johndoe2012]

Chris, I believe s-m does this. Or any good neigong. I have much, much more awareness and voluntary control over my body since starting s-m.

 

yes, true.

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this, other than I believe in both-and, not either-or.

 

Many medical s-m practioners have a massage or tui na background. I think somatics + medical qigong / taoist medicine could be a good combination. It is all about being versatile.

 

Anyway, my neigong routine is where I spend most my time. 1½ hour vs 15-20 min somatics.

 

EDIT:

 

also wanted to say that it seems to be a good way to study anatomy from the inside rather to study in a textbook, or sit down and listen to a teacher.

Edited September 2, 2011 by chris d

[寒月 Hanyue]

Anyhoo, I'm curious how the 20-minute recommended Hanna Somatics routine could "accentuate" s-m. Perhaps warm up with the 20-min routine, then sit for an hour? Unless one has a routine of doing Gift of the Tao before sitting.

 

Hanna's "cat stretch" routine is designed to reduce and undo the sensory motor amnesia and trauma ('dead' areas) of the body from the core out. To do this it focuses upon re-establishing the natural movements of a 'Soma' or living organism/body, which come from the spine. So each of the lessons that reduce into the "cat stretch" work the deep tissues of the core and free the spine in its natural three dimensional movement.

 

Yes, there are "neigong" approaches that do this to and much overlap, but there are also differences, it really depends upon the lineage/tradition/system. The 'Heart' is the same in my experience. In my understanding SM could be considered 'automatic' somatics, where the body works through this process without the need for a lesson plan or external direction.

 

Additionally, a good friend of mine who is a student of traditional kundalini yoga was taught by his lineage teacher swami dev murti ji a series of exercises called "crocodile exercises" and some of these are virtually the same as the lessons Hanna emphasised as foundational in his Somatics method.

 

The differences occur from why the people practicing the methods are practicing them.

 

Chris, I believe s-m does this. Or any good neigong. I have much, much more awareness and voluntary control over my body since starting s-m.

 

Yes, good neigong and good feldenkrais or somatics are closer more than they are apart. Feldenkrais called the solo work 'Awareness through movement', the basis is very similar to the concept of xingyi, it is about how internal awareness/intent manifests as external shapes or movement. Feldenkrais developed his method based upon much of his experience of judo* and jujutsu.

 

Many medical s-m practioners have a massage or tui na background. I think somatics + medical qigong / taoist medicine could be a good combination. It is all about being versatile.

 

The Daoists tried to understand and work with the body, qi and shen, we are trying to understand and work with the body, qi and shen. Any method that puts direct personal experience first is going to overlap with others that do the same, because all we have to experience is our body, qi and shen.

 

also wanted to say that it seems to be a good way to study anatomy from the inside rather to study in a textbook, or sit down and listen to a teacher.

 

Franklin calls this "experiential anatomy", interesting concept.

 

Best,

 

 

* When I say Judo, I do not mean modern sport Judo.

Edited September 2, 2011 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thanks so much snowmonki.

 

 

Yes, I can verify your understanding with my experience. Much of the spontaneous movements I have written about in my pp log.

 

Hope you're well.

 

I'm fine thank you Life is hectic at the moment, will see how long it lasts

 

I am going to clarify something for those that may read my posts, just in case.

 

When I mention neigong above, I am referring to the body-mind (jinggong) aspect of practice where, more often than not, Dao Yin has been crossed with wugong (martial training). I am NOT referring to the energetic aspect or depths found in true neigong. Neigong is jinggong, qigong, shengong. Feldenkrais and somatics cross over with jinggong but rarely if ever go deeper as that is not the reasons for the methods.

 

Best,

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Mal]

One thing you might try is sitting a little deeper in your form.

Just a little at a time - this might help stretch you out a bit.

Especially where you sit in horse or single whip.

 

In the last few months the above have been noticeable helpful _/\_

 

(while my form is nothing like as deep as it was in '11 comparing with the past is a bad idea... although I like remembering how many painkillers I'm NOT on now vs a few months ago Panadol, Ibuprofen, tramadol, time release tramadol ... not fun times)

 

But that got me a nice new set of xrays, ct scans, and ultrasounds and I met a cool physiotherapist

Edited July 28, 2013 by Mal Stainkey

[Mal]

the money shelled out to learn xing shen zhuang has already paid for itself a hundredfold

 

although I open and close more than what the form dictates, daily, often.

 

Recently when I think about improving my spine "xing shen zhuang" appears "coincidentally"

 

I think I've asked before but can this be learnt from a book/video ?