LaoZi's "De"

[rene]

Below are the words of dawei, pulled from several posts in TTC Ch 51 thread:

***

I see Dao as the law which the arising follows; the arising are as such because they undergo their own "dao'ing". This ability I see as the power or efficacy or virtuosity (De) of Dao.

I don't see De as 'virtue' as it becomes too associated with ethical Confucian. Lao Zi "De" is not Confucian "De". Whereas Confucius takes a high [ethical] road (wei, action, as practice makes perfect and becomes useful), Lao Zi takes the low [mystical] road (wu wei as no thought-provoked action makes emptiness and becomes useful)

Confucius believed in Dao and De; His understand of the Way and Ethic was that of common folks raising to Jun Zi; the most excellent gentleman; a man of exuding ethics! which others would follow as his example. This is the high road.

Lao Zi believed in Dao and De; His understanding of the Way and Power was without regard to anyone needing to follow him; it was in regard to it's source alone (Dao and De). This is the ultimate principle of "returning to the source".

As the Sage arises and returns [like natural life of plants or trees], so others see the Sage exemplifies natural life.

De is not affecting only people (Confucian) but all life (Lao Zi). In this way, life possesses De in order to naturally return to Dao. This is life and death.


***

Thanks, dawei, for your words.

All are welcome to join in.

Edited August 30, 2013 by rene

[rene]

The ideas expressed by dawei resonate loudly and clearly. Many TTC renditions have a distinct Confucian, Religious Taoist, Buddhist and even Christian flavor to them - and the strongest seasoning is usually found in the way "De" is interpreted, and then used, to promote the agenda of the group that has absorbed the TTC into its doctrines. It would be nice if, in the discussions of the TTC chapters here in the subforum, Laozi's "De", the inherent efficacy, was used as the basis for context in our exchange of ideas.

[Stigweard]

Yup ... agreed and very nicely articulated.

 

[Marblehead]

Yup ... agreed and very nicely articulated.

 

 

Agree.

 

Well, except for this:

 

To be frank, I think "De" is the 'missing link' between heaven and earth. 'De' is the power to transcend the realms.

 

The link is not missing. It is very observable. And we don't have to travel to see it; all we have to do is look out our window. (In fact, all we have to do is look at ourself.)

[Marblehead]

If one can see, it is very observable.

 

Ah!, yes, ... How to say it? ... We must first open our eyes and our mind.

 

(We tend to place various limitations on ourself, don't we? And it is true, some members here could pop in here and say that it is I who have placed limitations on myself but I am always prepared to discuss that subject in an appropriate thread.)

[dawei]

I am not exactly sure what I even meant by the 'missing link'; it put it in quotes as if to suggest it is not really missing; it is intrinsically there but we may not know it. We may not know it because we are approaching 'De' from a Confucius point of view. The Confucians can look too. But I like RV's succinct point. I feel 'to see' does not really originate from man but from the source of the realms; that was my point.

 

Confucius was asked if those without the "Way" should be killed so those with the "Way" can grow more. He responded that this was not how to govern; if one desires good then the people will follow suit. He compared the high man's "De" to the wind and the low man's "De" to the grass; the wind will surely bend the grass to it's direction. This is a kind of power but of moral dimension brought. He shows that for him, "De" is to become a stronger force and then harness and used to it's advantage and full effect.

 

Lao Zi's "De" manifests more easily from a state of Zi Ran and Wu Wei, just as the rest of the ten thousand things. Thus, it is not so much what one strives for but one finds it has a power and protective nature. It is not just human or physical, it is universal and returns to the universal.

 

Xuan De is often stated as "hidden", "mysterious", or "dark" virtue/power. I don't see it that way; this was a later Confucian idea out of the XuanXue, Dark Learning school sometimes called Neo-Daoism. It was a time when Confucians sought to understand how to conflate their ideas with Daoism. A major proponent of this school of thought was Wang Bi; a Confucian who wrote the most popular commentary to the Lao Zi; His version is the one used around the world.

 

Even in Chapter 1 we see Xuan as a kind of gate between the states of Wu and You; both seem to have their emergence or have their source in this. Xuan De is used four times and three times it explains the previous sections and says "This is called Xuan De" (Ch. 10, 51, 65). One translator calls the "Mystic Inner Power". I would maybe call it "The Power of Oneness". This is about as close as I can come to explain my meaning of being that which is between (and joins or links) the realms.

Edited July 18, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Well, you did a damn good job. Thanks for sharing.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'll add here that there also seems to be a great connection between De-Virtue and Shen-Spirit. It seems that when somebody cultivates one, the other will also increase. Teachers who say not to waste time with energy practices, such as Liu I Ming, appear to say that the focus on virtue is enough to cultivate "the gold pill" of immortality. I'm open to more information on this, however...

[Marblehead]

I'll add here that there also seems to be a great connection between De-Virtue and Shen-Spirit. It seems that when somebody cultivates one, the other will also increase. Teachers who say not to waste time with energy practices, such as Liu I Ming, appear to say that the focus on virtue is enough to cultivate "the gold pill" of immortality. I'm open to more information on this, however...

 

Interesting concept. I have no knowledge in the area so all I will be able to do is read what others say.

[dawei]

I thought to comment more on my idea of Connecting the Realms since it is not often talked about, particularly since it starts to get outside of just philosophical discussions to more metaphysical and mystical/spiritual levels. But I am personally convinced that Lao Zi comes out of the tail end of that phase; Daoism was first Shamanistic and alchemy/mystical/spiritual before it was philosophical; only later did this all blend to result in Religious ways.

 

I see the three realms as: Earth, Heaven, Spirit

 

Yes, not with Man as the third one since he is a part of earth. This has the advantage of showing associations and the influence as a hierarchy:

Earth - physical (man)

Heaven - vibrational (energy)

Spirit - spiritual (ONEness)

 

Some things cross over between these realms. I have stated here on TB that my personal opinion is that Dao is NOT the ONE. Dao is that part of the ONE which bestows the way things work in the manifest world. I see De as that part which is the empowerment; the efficacy. Xuan is the gate or passageway linking all of them. Thus, I said "Xuan De" is "The Power of ONEness". It reaches all realms because of the intrinsic link or gateway, Xuan.

 

Before I said there is a saying: "Xuan is the color of heaven and Yellow the color of earth". For earth, think the Yellow Emperor: That color was due to his contributions to agriculture and it became the Imperial color. Xuan is red-black and sometimes mentioned as the 'unity' of dark and light (also think how a black surface of water reflects light).

 

So Xuan unifies the realms whereas De is the power/capacity/efficacy carried out over and into those realms. Dao provides the guiding principle. In the manifested world, we see principled by Zi Ran / Wu Wei. Through De, mankind has this principled power/capacity/efficacy.

 

The question may arise: What gets or goes into the spiritual realm? I've never been there so I can only tell you what I feel. Others may have closer experience. My feeling is that this is where "Shen" (spirit) plays the biggest role, which there was a general forum thread on Shen. Hun and Po are the soul aspect which also play a role.

 

Where is "Wu" in all this? Wang Bi said it was the original reality ('you' just the functional state we experience). That might make it the 'gatekeeper' between the insubstantial and substantial. I think it is probably some aspect of the transforming spirit which makes the manifest [of heaven and earth] possible.

 

The problem I have with following some of Wang Bi's explanation is that he wants all the mystic or spiritual out of the Lao Zi. It's the same thing that modern Traditional Chinese Medicine did by trying to get rid of the spiritual realm. The modern movement has been to sanitize the ancient text to rid them of their past alchemy/mystic/shaman way. At least alchemy/Shaman Qigong, Neigong and Shengong, and Medical Qigong have maintained these levels.

[dawei]

I'll add here that there also seems to be a great connection between De-Virtue and Shen-Spirit. It seems that when somebody cultivates one, the other will also increase. Teachers who say not to waste time with energy practices, such as Liu I Ming, appear to say that the focus on virtue is enough to cultivate "the gold pill" of immortality. I'm open to more information on this, however...

Yes, interesting. While there was an interesting discussion on Shen I don't mind seeing the possible connections like you mention.

 

member On The Path shared a translation by Master Flowing Hands. I found his Chapter 6 interesting:

 

CHAPTER 6

The root of Heaven and Earth,

can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten

thousand things.

It is ever present and eternal.

 

He forgoes the normal "Valley Spirit" translation to show that there is a spirit to Heaven and Earth, which is the 'primordial mother' of all, 'present and eternal' (ie: passes across the realms); He also mentions "Xuan" as the gateway too all mysteries. all similar to what I postulate.

 

I think there are many chapters which reveal these meanings if we will be open to the potential idea presented.

[lienshan]

Lao Zi's "De" manifests more easily from a state of Zi Ran and Wu Wei, just as the rest of the ten thousand things. Thus, it is not so much what one strives for but one finds it has a power and protective nature. It is not just human or physical, it is universal and returns to the universal.

"De" is to me a human-to-human relationship; inspired by reading the chapters 49 and 66:

 

The people are like the hundred mountainstreams.

The sage is both the river and the sea; symbolizing "De" and "Dao".

The people is through "De" in connection with the sage. (mountainstreams <=> river)

The humble presence and lowly speech of the sage is "De".

The goodness and the faithfulness of the sage is "De".

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

CHAPTER 6

The root of Heaven and Earth,

can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten

thousand things.

It is ever present and eternal.

 

He forgoes the normal "Valley Spirit" translation to show that there is a spirit to Heaven and Earth, which is the 'primordial mother' of all, 'present and eternal' (ie: passes across the realms); He also mentions "Xuan" as the gateway too all mysteries. all similar to what I postulate.

 

I think there are many chapters which reveal these meanings if we will be open to the potential idea presented.

 

Hmm. Yes, using Spirit instead of Valley Spirit is much more directly revealing of the message here.

 

I guess one of the reasons Te and Shen seem so similar is that a lot of the discourse on virtue seems to suggest "just have Shen, and you will have all other virtues"; such as saying that the Confucian virtues appear when harmony fades. Shen seems to definitely be part of Te. What I'm less sure of is if Te cultivates Shen. I think Te certainly protects Shen, keeps people from losing Shen. I suppose if someone is virtuous for long enough then they will increase Shen, but I can't remember an exact passage about this.

 

There is a part in the Treatise of the Yellow Emperor on Internal Medicine, where he more or less says to be natural and loving during the Summer so that you won't get an illness in the winter, and different modes of behaviour for each season that will protect the body, but I don't know that this was meaning that seasonally appropriate virtuous behaviors will protect you by strengthening Shen, though one might draw this conclusion independently.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[dawei]

Shen seems to definitely be part of Te. What I'm less sure of is if Te cultivates Shen. I think Te certainly protects Shen, keeps people from losing Shen. I suppose if someone is virtuous for long enough then they will increase Shen, but I can't remember an exact passage about this.

My observation is those in more religious daoism inclinations use being virtuous to develop shen; but those in alchemy or medical qigong talk to increase Shen and De increases. I think they are interconnected so expect that both directions are really needed.

 

There is a part in the Treatise of the Yellow Emperor on Internal Medicine, where he more or less says to be natural and loving during the Summer so that you won't get an illness in the winter, and different modes of behaviour for each season that will protect the body, but I don't know that this was meaning that seasonally appropriate virtuous behaviors will protect you by strengthening Shen, though one might draw this conclusion independently.

Maybe this:

"During the Winter, if one lives improperly, giving into impulsive desires and emotions such as anger and irritability, the spirit becomes restless, causing the yang qi to disperse at the surface. At this point the yang qi can no longer control the openings of the body. The result will be an outpouring of the qi, and subsequent vulnerability to invasions."

 

"In the Summer, if too much sweating occurs in the heat, the qi will escape, the breath will become course and rapid, and one will feel irritable. This happens when heat attacks the exterior. If Summer heat attacks and enters the interior, it will affect the mind and spirit, causing confusion, mumbling and fever. For relief, the pores must be opened to release the heat."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

My observation is those in more religious daoism inclinations use being virtuous to develop shen; but those in alchemy or medical qigong talk to increase Shen and De increases. I think they are interconnected so expect that both directions are really needed.

 

 

Yes, exactly. Would you consider Liu I Ming more of a religious Daoist then? Would the the Northern part of Complete Reality Daoism be considered to be more "religous" or does their focus on alchemy remove this description?

 

 

Maybe this:

"During the Winter, if one lives improperly, giving into impulsive desires and emotions such as anger and irritability, the spirit becomes restless, causing the yang qi to disperse at the surface. At this point the yang qi can no longer control the openings of the body. The result will be an outpouring of the qi, and subsequent vulnerability to invasions."

 

"In the Summer, if too much sweating occurs in the heat, the qi will escape, the breath will become course and rapid, and one will feel irritable. This happens when heat attacks the exterior. If Summer heat attacks and enters the interior, it will affect the mind and spirit, causing confusion, mumbling and fever. For relief, the pores must be opened to release the heat."

 

Yes, that looks like the same part - from the first book when C'hi Po talks about the seasons.

 

"[in summer] They should not weary during daytime and they should not allow their minds to become angry. They should enable the best parts (of their body and spirit) to develop; they should enable their breath to communicate with the outside world; and they should act as though they loved everything outside. All this is in harmony with the atmosphere of Summer and all this is the method for the protection of one's development...

 

[in winter].. They should suppress and conceal their wishes, as though they had no internal purpose, as though they had been fulfilled.."

 

So, as mentioned in the Dao De Jing too, acting with weak virtue will harm the body, whereas acting virtuously will protect it.

 

This is speaking of the body, but I wonder how much about the spirit has been re-worded as breath or mind. The translation I have uses "the life-giving force"' for what was probably Chi in the original. "When the liver receives the life giving force from the heart, it is from there transmitted to the spleen..."

[dawei]

Yes, exactly. Would you consider Liu I Ming more of a religious Daoist then? Would the the Northern part of Complete Reality Daoism be considered to be more "religous" or does their focus on alchemy remove this description?

I think they are 'both/and', not 'either/or' in regards to religious and alchemy. My personal opinion is that prior to Laozi (and around his time), alchemy was more spiritual but in modern times we call it more religious. I don't know much about the specific lineage but there appears to be a discussion already on TB which you can read:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16068-associates-complete-reality/

 

 

Yes, that looks like the same part - from the first book when C'hi Po talks about the seasons.

 

"[in summer] They should not weary during daytime and they should not allow their minds to become angry. They should enable the best parts (of their body and spirit) to develop; they should enable their breath to communicate with the outside world; and they should act as though they loved everything outside. All this is in harmony with the atmosphere of Summer and all this is the method for the protection of one's development...

 

[in winter].. They should suppress and conceal their wishes, as though they had no internal purpose, as though they had been fulfilled.."

 

So, as mentioned in the Dao De Jing too, acting with weak virtue will harm the body, whereas acting virtuously will protect it.

 

This is speaking of the body, but I wonder how much about the spirit has been re-worded as breath or mind. The translation I have uses "the life-giving force"' for what was probably Chi in the original. "When the liver receives the life giving force from the heart, it is from there transmitted to the spleen..."

This is basic Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM); it is not necessary to be practicing alchemy or qigong to gain (or lose) the benefit of this; Confucians can follow this prescription or anyone else.

 

I found the original of your line, you can see the third character is Qi, but notice it is together as 'shou qi' which is synonymous with "anger" which is the emotion of the Liver:

Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen

肝受氣於心，傳之於脾，氣舍於腎，至肺而死．

gan shou qi yu xin， chuan zhi yu pi， qi she yu shen， zhi fei er si.

"When the liver receives the life-giving force [shou qi] from the heart, it is from there transmitted to the spleen, whence it is passed on to the kidneys; here it reaches it utmost, so that it meets death when it arrives at the lungs."

 

Based on the passage, it is describing the path of 'anger' stirred in the heart and arising in the Liver; passed to the spleen then kidneys and lungs eventually resulting in death. If one traces this on the 5 element cycle, it is following the "Draining Cycle" and then switches to the "Destructive Cycle"; clearly not following the healthy "Constructive Cycle".

http://www.earthbalance-interiors.com/free-feng-shui-tips/5-elements-feng-shui/

 

Ultimately the emotions will affect the Shen:

http://www.fivespirits.com/shen.php

[Marblehead]

Just wanted to say that I am still reading the posts but I have nothing to say regarding the direction y'all have taken the discussion.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[Simple_Jack]

Yes, interesting. While there was an interesting discussion on Shen I don't mind seeing the possible connections like you mention.

 

member On The Path shared a translation by Master Flowing Hands. I found his Chapter 6 interesting:

 

CHAPTER 6

The root of Heaven and Earth,

can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten

thousand things.

It is ever present and eternal.

 

He forgoes the normal "Valley Spirit" translation to show that there is a spirit to Heaven and Earth, which is the 'primordial mother' of all, 'present and eternal' (ie: passes across the realms); He also mentions "Xuan" as the gateway too all mysteries. all similar to what I postulate.

 

I think there are many chapters which reveal these meanings if we will be open to the potential idea presented.

 

I'm going to post an excerpt that explains the ching/chi/shen from different perspectives. Pay attention to the "philosophical" perspective. Here's the excerpt from Nan Huai Chins The Story of Chinese Taoism: "To summarize, the ching, ch'i and shen brought forth by the Taoist School are, from the scientific point of view, the spiritual functions of the eyes, ears and mind in terms of the physical and mental lives of people. The manifestation and application of spirit (shen) is then the function of one's vision, the manifestation and application of ch'i is then the function of one's sense of hearing, and the manifestation and application of ching are then the active thoughts of the mind and the inherent activities of the body."

 

"If we approach this from the point of view of the physical functions of the unity of Heaven and man, shen, ching and ch'i are then the functions of light, heat and power. From a philosophical perspective, the shen mentioned by the Taoist School is close to the "nature" spoken of in Buddhism, and the ching of the Taoist School is close to the "mind" in Buddhism. We therefore see the line "the essence (ching) of the mind is perfected" in the T'ang Dynasty translation of the Surangama Sutra;"

 

"The ch'i spoken of by the Taoist School is close to the breathing discussed in Buddhism, the function of postnatal life. If we draw from phenomena of the physical world for purposes of illustration, shen is comparable to the light energy bestowed upon the myriad things by the sun as it gives energy to all life on earth. Ch'i is comparable to the vapors issued forth from the light energy of the sun radiating on the earth. Ching is then comparable to the combined physical effects produced by the sun bestowing light energy on the myriad things in the world. However, it should be noted that I have employed illustrations because there is no way of explaining the conditions of ching, ch'i and shen in detail, and illustrations are merely analogies, and not the essence of the original.

 

Now going by what was posted above and by what the chapter looks like it is describing (to me)....It seems it is talking about the "nature of existence." Going by the above and what this means to me; it is talking about co-dependent arising that is inherently "empty" of an independent, unchanging or absolute existence. Hence, the "spirit" or "nature" is: "...ever present; the gateway to all mysteries...the primordial mother of the ten thousand things. It is ever present and eternal."

Edited July 19, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Now as to De specifically, I'm going to post more excerpts from Nan Huai Chins The Story of Chinese Taoism:

 

"After the text of the Lao Tzu was changed to be called The Tao Te Ching by the rulers of the Tang Dynasty, later generations would always link Lao Tzu together with ethics (tao te.) However, in reality, the tao (way) and te (virtue) were originally separated. The "tao" is the substance while the "te" is the function."

 

"The original text was burned during the Ch'in Dynasty, and therefore later the order of the chapters could not be determined....However the division of the substance and the function were very clear and so we should understand that the focus of Lao Tzu's political thought involves the concept of "virtue." He employs the term "Way" as the central philosophy for internal self-cultivation, and the term "virtue" as the emphasis for external handling of political and social affairs. Moreover, the meaning of "virtue" in ancient times also embodied the idea of "attaining," equivalent to effects and attainments in modern terms."

 

"Lao Tzu said: "High virtue is non-virtuous, therefore it has virtue. Low virtue never frees itself from being virtuous, therefore it has no virtue." This refers to the highest virtue, that is, even if one performs a virtuous deed of the highest order yet he does not consider gain and loss of such action. This is equivalent to to the "non-action" and "not non-action" related to the concept of Tao as discussed by Lao Tzu."

 

"Political schemes were not only rebuked within the thought of Lao Tzu, but it should also be emphasized that he also did not advocate returning to the political rule of primitive society. The "small states with sparse populations" mentioned by Lao Tzu relate to the separately ruled states established by feudal lords, one form of local-rule. He advocated political reunification of the entire nation. For example Lao Tzu said, "Heaven attained oneness and became clear, earth attained oneness and became quiet, and the barons and princes attained oneness and became sovereign rulers for the world."

"Of course using the "attained oneness" employed here is not sufficient to explain that the focus of Lao Tzu's thought was necessarily on unification. His usage of "oneness" here includes the idea of cultivation. Therefore, Lao Tzu said: "Humility is the root from which greatness springs, the high must be constructed on the foundation of the low. That is why barons and princes call themselves 'The Solitary One,' 'The Little One,' and 'The Worthless One' Do they not realize thier dependence on the lowly? Truly excessive honor means no honor. It is not desirable to shine like jade and resound like stone chimes." From this we can see the full expression of his political thought of transformation through virtue and unification....Lao Tzu's advocacy of "requiting injustice with kindness" is a traditional spirit that has pervaded throughout Chinese cultural history."

 

To post other stuff talking about what the sage should embody according to Lao-Tzu: "That is, Heaven and earth nourish the myriad things and people, but they do so without any selfish aims or preconditions. The myriad things derive life from them as well as meet their ends, a completely natural phenomenon. Heaven earth give life without any resentment over the toil, and take no credit for their deeds. Therefore, people should emulate the great spirit of unselfishness, benevolence, and compassion embodied by Heaven and earth. This is an ethical standard, the realm of the metaphysical Tao and the natural law of the physical world."

 

"When Lao Tzu spoke of "non-action," he was referring to the very essence of Heaven and the Tao. "Not non-action" refers to the fact that although the substance of the Tao is "non-action," yet it still possesses the functions and effects of living things going on without end. Therefore, there are theories of the "mutual production of existence and non-existence" and "emergence from movement" for the functions of the substance of Tao. His proposing of "non-action" and "not non-action" for Heaven and the Tao also explains that people should emulate Heaven and earth, act when it is appropriate, stop at the proper time, and realize the standard of true-selflessness and impartiality.This is the firmness of Heaven."

 

"However, Lao Tzu also brought forth the principle of the true sage, that is, the true sage should emulate the nourishing of the myriad things in the world and be spontaneous like Heaven and earth without aims or conditions. Lao Tzu felt it was wrong to think that Heaven and earth were predisposed with benevolence, as was maintained by many of his contemporaries. He stated that Heaven and earth gave birth to the myriad things without any discrimination, treating equally the myriad things and straw dogs."

 

"Lao Tzu felt that the true sage should also maintain such equality and selflessness in saving and aiding the world, being deviod of any aims or conditions. Lao Tzu said: "Heaven and earth are not benevolent, It treats the myriad things as straw dogs. The sage is not benevolent, and he treats all people as straw dogs." Those of later generations employed these lines to satirize the sage as well as Heaven and earth, [but they simply did not understand Lao Tzu and the conditions he was writing about.]"

 

"The Great Man spoken of in the Book of Changes is equivalent to the true sage mentioned by Lao Tzu. "Harmonize his virtue with Heaven and earth" is very similar to the idea that of Heaven and Earth, "The myriad things depend on it and it denies nothing to anyone. It does its work but makes no claim for itself." Is not "Harmonizes his brightness with the sun and moon" The same meaning as "Heaven and earth are not benevolent, it treats the myriad things as straw dogs?" The sun and moon illuminate Heaven and earth without discriminating the pure and the impure, but show equal compassion to the highest level of purity and to the filthiest cesspool. The remaining "Harmonizes his sequence with the four seasons, and harmonizes his good and bad fortunes with ghosts and spirits" Can be explained the same way."

[dawei]

Now as to De specifically, I'm going to post more excerpts from Nan Huai Chins The Story of Chinese Taoism:

 

"After the text of the Lao Tzu was changed to be called The Tao Te Ching by the rulers of the Tang Dynasty, later generations would always link Lao Tzu together with ethics (tao te.) However, in reality, the tao (way) and te (virtue) were originally separated. The "tao" is the substance while the "te" is the function."

 

"The original text was burned during the Ch'in Dynasty, and therefore later the order of the chapters could not be determined....However the division of the substance and the function were very clear and so we should understand that the focus of Lao Tzu's political thought involves the concept of "virtue." He employs the term "Way" as the central philosophy for internal self-cultivation, and the term "virtue" as the emphasis for external handling of political and social affairs. Moreover, the meaning of "virtue" in ancient times also embodied the idea of "attaining," equivalent to effects and attainments in modern terms."

It should be realized that the name order of "Dao De [Jing]" was named as early as the Han dynasty period; The status as a "Jing" (classic) is a little debated whether it was truly considered as such. But Emperor Jing and his mother (and the precessor Emperor Wen) are of often considered as the court turning towards holding the writing as higher than Confucius.

 

But the combined 'Dao De' as ethics (or morality) was solidified into culture and consciousness.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It should be realized that the name order of "Dao De [Jing]" was named as early as the Han dynasty period; The status as a "Jing" (classic) is a little debated whether it was truly considered as such. But Emperor Jing and his mother (and the precessor Emperor Wen) are of often considered as the court turning towards holding the writing as higher than Confucius.

 

But the combined 'Dao De' as ethics (or morality) was solidified into culture and consciousness.

 

Wow, so it could really be called "Classic on the Way of Virtue"? Dao De = Way of Virtue, yes?

[dawei]

Wow, so it could really be called "Classic on the Way of Virtue"? Dao De = Way of Virtue, yes?

Sure.

 

There are so many variations you can find used by authors:

The Way of Virtue (Byrne)

The Way and its Power (Waley)

The Wisdom of Lao Zi (Yutang)

The Way of Lao Zi (Chan)

The Way of Life (Blakney)

The Book of Tao and Teh (Zhengkun)

The Book of the Way (Roberts)

The Book of the Way and Virtue (Palden)

The Classic of the Way and Virtue (Lynn)

 

Some don't translate but leave it as:

Dao De Jing / Tao Te Ching / etc.

 

The earliest manuscript (Guodian) was in three bundles; The next oldest (Mawangdui) was in two versions but both have De first, then Dao. This was reversed by the Han dynasty to Dao De. But sometimes still separate as "Dao Jing" and "De Jing".

 

It appears to be first referenced simply as the "Lao Zi" or the "Lao [old] manuscript" (Lao Jing).

Edited July 19, 2011 by dawei

[rene]

Wow, so it could really be called "Classic on the Way of Virtue"? Dao De = Way of Virtue, yes?

 

Oh, please do not.

 

Bad enough it was changed from The Laozi to Dao De Ching at the same time "De" was given the ethical and moral-Virtue emphasis rather than Laozi's "De"

 

Recall please what this thread is about.

Edited July 19, 2011 by rene