LaoZi's "De"

[rene]

... I have found that some who hold to the original Laozi idea of "De" as power/efficacy do not think of themselves as 'Taoist' since the name is misleading most others.

Yes; and those for whom The Laozi is more than sufficient, sometimes call themselves 'Laoist'. (-:

[rene]

I meant to ask.. so Zi Ran means self-so-ness....

 

"Well put. For me, its a bit more than 'principle and power', but that is part of it, yes."

 

How would you say it's more?

 

 

Harmonious Emptiness, hello

 

By 'a bit more' I meant that (to me) Dao is more than just 'principle' and De is more than just 'power'.

 

If you're asking for my idea about Dao? Sorry, my mouth can not make words for it. (nod:ZZ)

 

If you're asking for my idea about De? It's inherent in all life; it's a direct reflection of the efficiency and efficacy that arises in tandem with natural spontaniety. And that is very powerful, indeed.

 

 

btw, your posts are enjoyable to read. (-:

 

warm regards

[dawei]

I agree it is more than just 'principle and power' but after 3 pages of being asked what is my definition of De, I thought I'd better keep it to a simpler idea.

 

I like the use of "uncontrived" depending on where it is use. I cannot recall which translator I have seen use it.

 

As to "Zi Ran", it is sometimes also translated as natural or naturalness.

 

For an interesting write-up on Zi Ran and its relation to Wu Wei, see this by Wang:

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

[Marblehead]

I agree it is more than just 'principle and power' but after 3 pages of being asked what is my definition of De, I thought I'd better keep it to a simpler idea.

 

I like the use of "uncontrived" depending on where it is use. I cannot recall which translator I have seen use it.

 

As to "Zi Ran", it is sometimes also translated as natural or naturalness.

 

For an interesting write-up on Zi Ran and its relation to Wu Wei, see this by Wang:

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

 

Great link. Thanks for sharing.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

-edit-

 

If you're asking for my idea about De? It's inherent in all life; it's a direct reflection of the efficiency and efficacy that arises in tandem with natural spontaniety. And that is very powerful, indeed.

 

 

btw, your posts are enjoyable to read. (-:

 

warm regards

 

Thanks rene.

 

I like this explanation too. Sort of like De is what arises out of Dao..

Edited July 21, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

It is clearly a case of people wanting to systematize the writings over a long period of time. First they are in 3 bundles (not good enough). Then in 2 sections (still not good enough). Then reverse the order of the sections (still not good enough). Then merge, contort, and vulgarize the meaning... downplay the mystical or spiritual... Ok, we're all done

 

Though I'm very glad that things have been put into words so that random straw dogs can learn from them.. This thought came to mind in relation to the Lao Zi

 

Chapter 32

 

Once things are broken up and divided, the whole is lost.

Then the parts are given names.

When things are given names,

their purpose in the whole structure is lost.

Men should avoid giving things too many names, and look more closely at the whole.

 

Chapter 28

 

In simplicity and openness,

return to the State of the uncarved block.

For when the block is carved, it becomes useful for men

to manipulate and use.

[Marblehead]

Once things are broken up and divided, the whole is lost.

Then the parts are given names.

When things are given names,

their purpose in the whole structure is lost.

 

This has always been an important concept in my philosophy.

[rene]

Thanks rene.

 

I like this explanation too. Sort of like De is what arises out of Dao..

 

Yes... and, the more ziran the process the more De arises.

 

Fun stuff to think about (-:

[Stigweard]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[ChiDragon]

hmmmmmm......

Are we using the "Yellow Emperor Internal Medicine" to apply into the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching now. That is something new to me. No wonder I got lost all the time.

[Marblehead]

I will stick to the main path. It has worked so well for me up to this point in my life.

[zerostao]

[baiqi]

Hi all.

 

This has been a very interesting conversation.

 

Just wanted to add a quite sad thing: in China today, many wrongly assume that the DDJ (TTK...) is a treatese on morality, just like another confucian classic. This is of course not the case. This wrong belief comes from the fact that "daode" is now translated by "virtue, morality" in modern Chinese.

I don't know how this change, not to say complete inversion of meaning was made. It is very clear to me that "daode" comes from daoism, but with another meaning.

 

Wouldn't be surprised that some confucians made it that way.

[lienshan]

[dawei]

Thirdly if I was to combine the traditional DaoDe then I could find myself comfortably coming up with a translation of "The Path of Heart which is also The Path of Power".

Thanks Stig, great info.

Edited July 30, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

Are we using the "Yellow Emperor Internal Medicine" to apply into the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching now. That is something new to me. No wonder I got lost all the time.

The poster was postulating whether seasonal awareness (as described in the YEIM) was a way to also see the relationship between Te and Shen. One dresses appropriate to the weather to guard against the weather; So I think the idea was whether one has a virtue appropriate to the season for the sake of Shen. It was nothing to do with an interpretation of the TTC. So I am not sure why your taking a shot at the poster?

 

I guess another thread could discuss how outside texts (or whatever) helps in understanding the TTC (or Tao).

[ChiDragon]

道德經之德

The definition of Te(德) was well defined in Chapter 51 of the Tao Te Ching

Chapter 51 - The Abyssal Te

1. Tao engenders it,

2. Te rears it.

3. Matter forms it,

4. Environment grows it.

5. Hence, all things respect Tao and honor Te.

6. Tao was dignified,

7. And Te was honored,

8. Because they do not interfere but being natural.

9. Therefore,

10.Tao engenders it,

 

11.Te rears it.

12.Grow it and nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.To foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possessing it.

16. Flourishing it but not being vainglorious.

17.Raise it but not controlling it,

18.It was called the abyssal virtue.

 

Lines 11 through 17 are the attributes of Tao Te(道德).

Edited July 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Hi all.

 

This has been a very interesting conversation.

 

Just wanted to add a quite sad thing: in China today, many wrongly assume that the DDJ (TTK...) is a treatese on morality, just like another confucian classic. This is of course not the case. This wrong belief comes from the fact that "daode" is now translated by "virtue, morality" in modern Chinese.

I don't know how this change, not to say complete inversion of meaning was made. It is very clear to me that "daode" comes from daoism, but with another meaning.

 

Wouldn't be surprised that some confucians made it that way.

Excellent point on "daode".

 

One finds it (DaoDe) in Zhuangzi, Huananzi, Wenzi, Confucius works, The Yellow Emperor Classic of Medicine, The Book of Change... but it is not used as "Daode" in the DDJ.

 

The later historian Sima Qian said Laozi wrote a book on DaoDe and when he classified the various [schools of] thought, he called his "DaoDe".

 

I think that probably the dominance of Confucian works drove it towards a moral meaning.

[dawei]

The definition of Te(德) was well defined in Chapter 51 of the Tao Te Ching

Chapter 51 - The Abyssal Te

 

18.It was called the abyssal virtue.

 

Lines 11 through 17 are the attributes of Tao Te(道德).

As was mentioned before, 'Xuan De' is used four times and three times it explains the previous sections and says "This is called Xuan De" (Ch. 10, 51, 65).

 

I read somewhere that Yuan 原 (original/source) was used in replacement of Xuan when Xuan was a taboo character. I think this reveals much more about how to define Xuan. Not necessarily as deep or mysterious, but something more primal. I also like those translations which use the word "inner" as part of it to convey it is deep-seated (to the heart?). Or even Mystic Inner Power which ties it back to it's origin as well.

[ChiDragon]

As was mentioned before, 'Xuan De' is used four times and three times it explains the previous sections and says "This is called Xuan De" (Ch. 10, 51, 65).

 

I read somewhere that Yuan 原 (original/source) was used in replacement of Xuan when Xuan was a taboo character. I think this reveals much more about how to define Xuan. Not necessarily as deep or mysterious, but something more primal. I also like those translations which use the word "inner" as part of it to convey it is deep-seated (to the heart?). Or even Mystic Inner Power which ties it back to it's origin as well.

 

Etymology Ref: 玄(xuan2)

玄(xuan2): far and obscure / occult or mystic / dark or black / deep and profound / abstruse and subtle / silent and meditative / pretending / a Chinese family name

 

It was not part of a name of a ruler of the Han Dynasty. I have not found any reference indicating that was a taboo character; and I have no reason to believe it would be.

 

FYI:

15.生而不有，

16.為而不恃，

17.長而不宰。

18.是謂玄德。

Lines 15 through 18 were mistakenly copied over to Chapter 10.

 

玄德 was defined in Chapter 65 of the Tao Te Ching:

A. 是謂玄德。

B. 玄德深矣、

 

Line B defined 玄德 is 深(deep and profound) and it was referred back to the attributes in Chapter 51.

 

Etymology Ref: 深(shen1)

深(shen1): deep / depth / profound / mysterious / difficult / abstruse / close / intimate / very / extremely

 

 

PS...

I cannot make it anymore crystal clear than that.

Edited July 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

[ChiDragon]

I never said it was the name of a ruler of the Han Dynasty. So you were too narrow in your search. I found it as probably Emperor Kangxi of Qing; so I admit much later than one would guess.

 

The reason I narrow down the Han Dynasty is because the Tao Te Ching was used as the ruling guide during the Han period.

 

Tao Te Ching Time table

郭店 Guodian 476 – 278 BCE; Unearthed:1993; Published: May 1998

 

馬王堆-甲本(MWD-A) 206 – 195 BCE; 篆書(Seal style); Unearthed:1973

馬王堆-乙本(MWD- 194 – 180 BCE; 隸書(Official Style); Unearthed:1973

 

洪上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE

王弼(Wang Bi) 226 – 249 CE

傅奕(Fu Yi) 555 – 639 CE

 

漢朝 - 皇帝 Emperors of Han Dynasty

高祖 - 劉邦 Liu2 bang1 206 – 195 BCE

文帝 - 劉盈 Liu2 ying2 194 – 188 BCE

惠帝 – 劉恒 Liu2 heng2 180 – 157 BCE

 

The names of the first three rulers were taboos

邦 and 恒 were taboo characters during their ruling period.

 

1. 劉邦: 邦 was changed to 國

2. 劉盈: 盈 was changed to 傾 only in Chapter for some reason.

3. 劉恒: 恒 was changed to 常

 

The second ruler was only a seven year old child, maybe people were not paying much attention to him. I think he died at the age of 7. Then, his mother queen took over the throne.

 

FYI...

During the Qing Dynasty, almost any statement mentioned or sounded, in any document, like a revolutionary action against the government was considered to be taboo.

Edited July 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The reason I narrow down the Han Dynasty is because the Tao Te Ching was used as the ruling guide during the Han period.

Consider the topic title. And offer discussion along that lines. Thanks.

[lienshan]

The definition of Te(德) was well defined in Chapter 51 of the Tao Te Ching

 

1. Tao engenders it,

2. Te rears it.

3. Matter forms it,

4. Environment grows it.

Edited July 31, 2011 by lienshan